After months of thinking about it, I finally made the plunge.
As background, I really like the looks of the NP3/hard chrome refinished P7s and P7M8s that I have seen. To me, they are beautiful guns. I like the refinished look so much that if I were to find an all-black model at a good price, I would likely send it to Tripp's or Robar to have it refinished on my own dime.
In looking at P7 v P7M8, the major differences in design appear to be in the location of the mag release and shape/design of the trigger guard. The mag release on the P7 is not an obstacle in my mind, and most people say the heat shield in the P7M8 trigger guard is window dressing anyway.
With the cheaper prices on the used P7s, my mind was certainly open to going that route vs. a new or slightly used P7M8.
I have read the gun forums, and periodically checked the local gun stores, gun shows, auction sites and GunsAmerica with an eye on finding a good deal . . . but without a sense of urgency.
Then last week, I had a discussion with my gunsmith Teddy Jacobson ("Actions by T") about how these guns should become very valuable in time. In addition, Teddy thinks this is one of the finest guns ever made. So, I began to search in earnest with the P7M8 scheduled to go out of production.
I discovered a P7 on GunBroker that caught my eye. It is distributed by GSI out of Alabama, and refinished by Robar in NP3. The auction started at $959, with a $999 "buy it now" price + $25 shipping (and transfer fees of course).
I decided to call GSI myself to find out more. I spoke to Pete Yates. Apparently, GSI got about 100 of these guns in from Bavaria, and sent them to Robar. The refinish job cost them $225 per gun. The guns include box, two NP3 magazines, owner's manual, H&K factory test target, Robar lifetime warranty card, factory cleaning rod, and fired shell casing. When I called, GSI was down to 45 guns, and was shipping out 2 to 5 per day.
Pete would not quote me a price over the phone since I did not have an FFL, so I had my FFL call him for me. I found out the price was $859.95 + $12.50 shipping.
At $872 plus transfer fees, I don't think I will be able to find a significantly better deal on a refinished P7, and may not be able to do better buying a used black P7 and having it refinished myself.
So, I took the plunge!
Last night, I picked up the gun from my FFL. Here is my report.
The box appears new or at least well-preserved. On the front right, it says "HK P7". On the front left, it says "Heckler & Koch GMBH, Oberndorf/Neckar, Fed Rep of Germany." The front lid has the serial number of my gun painted in white - and that number is duplicated on the right side of the frame and slide.
Inside the box are several documents, 2 tools, a P7 pistol and 2 magazines. The owner's manual is in English. It refers to the P7M8, P7M13 and P7M10, not the P7. On the back, it says HK USA Edition 10/93. Clearly, this is not the original operator's manual.
In addition, there is the Robar warranty card with my gun's serial number on it. The card says P7M8 - typo I am guessing. It appears from reading the card the finish is under warranty against corrosion and peeling for the life of the gun (as opposed to only the first owner).
There is a factory HK target in German with my serial number on it. Looks like 3-4 bullets in one ragged hole. It appears the target was shot from 15 meters from the "15 m" mark in the "Entfernung" box. In the "Gerat" section, it says PISTOL P7 9MM COMPL. USED. The target is in excellent condition - it doesn't look 20 years old; it looks fairly new. The only numbers on the target that look like a date code read "02.04" Putting two and two together, I am assuming this target was shot in Germany shortly before it was shipped over.
There is a small brown envelope containing a casing collected by someone named Morlock. There is a label on the outside of the envelope which has H&K's address in Sterling, Virginia. There is an FFL number on the label. The date the shell was collected was "18.06.2004" which I presume to mean June 18, 2004. I am guessing the gun arrived in Virginia last summer, which makes the "02.04" date on the German factory target look right.
The tools included are a brand new wire brush scrubber for the cylinder, and a small flat black tool with 2 holes in it. Not big enough to be a scraper (no scraper included). One end of the small tool has a flat protrusion that fits the grip screws. The other end of the tool has a two-prongred protrusion that looks like it could fit in the two slots on the firing pin bushing. The P7M8 Operator's manual makes no mention of this little tool.
Now, for the good part. The gun is in excellent condition. The refinish looks first class. No scratches anwhere. The gun looks beautiful. I had read where the NP3 finish feels slippery. I don't notice the gun being slick at all.
The only part of the gun that looks used is the right grip panel. The left grip panel which says HK P7 at the bottom looks to be in excellent shape. The right grip panel has several scratches along the bottom and backstrap, and looks a little worn in comparison to the left grip panel. I might try to replace the right grip panel.
On the left part of the slide, it says HECKLER & KOCH GMBH, Oberndorf/N Made in Germany, 9x19. There is nothing on the left frame.
On the right slide, it has my serial number with a 15- in front of it that is stamped much deeper than the serial number, and not directly linear to it. I have read that the 15- means the gun was refurbished. That would not surprise me, given the new factory target. Next is BVP or BYP encircled in an oval. I was told by Pete Yates at GSI this indicates that the gun was issued to the Bavarian Police. Contininuing on the right slide, it says 11/83 which I take to mean the date of manufacture. Then there is an Eagle symbol, which overlays the last markings on the right slide "HK Inc. Sterling VA".
On the right frame, my serial number is repeated with a 15- in front of it, then there is the same eagle symbol. That's it for markings. And nothing has been struck through or milled out.
In gripping the gun, the squeeze cocker seems to require a little more pressure than some of the other P7's I have held. And when the grip is released, it's louder than some of the other P7's I have held. I have been told this indicates a new spring.
The two 8-round magazines have been refinished in NP3, and look good as new.
Without field stripping the gun, I took the P7 to the TopGun Indoor range in Houston with the only other 9mm I have in it's size range for comparison - a Kahr K9 Elite 98. I have shot the Kahr on numerous occasions prior to tonight. I had never shot a P7 before tonight.
I shot three different loads in each gun - Ranger T 147, Federal EFMJ 124+p, and Black Hills Remanufactured 147. I shot a total of 100 rounds. Both guns fed, fired and ejected all three rounds perfectly. Here are my impressions:
RECOIL
I found the P7 much quicker to regain the target. The recoil was about the same for both guns, maybe a tad less on the P7. But the Kahr had much more muzzle flip. Advantage P7.
TRIGGER
The Kahr trigger is exceptionally smooth. It is also quite long. The P7 trigger was a tad lighter, and MUCH shorter. This allows for much faster follow up shots. In fact, it took a little getting used to, as I would sometimes surprise myself by squeezing off a shot before I intended to. Once you get accustomed to the P7 trigger, it spoils you. Advantage P7.
ACCURACY
The Kahr K9 is known for it's accuracy. And I thought I was fairly accurate with it. But the P7 blew me away. Except for those shots that took me by surprise, I was dead on with it. By far the most accurate gun I own. Advantage P7.
The little Kahr is a helluva gun. Don't get me wrong. The P7 is just that good.
I took the gun home, field stripped it, and cleaned it. The internals of the gun are finished in NP3 as well. Despite the refinished internals, the gun was dirty from shooting, and took some effort to clean. After cleaning, I inspected the inside of the barrel, and it looks brand new. The gas piston did not clean up very well, but this is normal I am told.
OTHER COMMENTS
I love the fact the grip serves a slide release as well as a cocker. That's just cool - and makes for a fast first shot after a reload.
The heel mag release takes a little getting used to, but I think I am going to dig it. The mags don't drop fee with a push of a button, but are released about an inch have to be pulled out. If you hold the mag release down for a full second, the mag drops fully out.
I did not try shooting the gun in double action (ie holding the trigger and then squeezing the grip). Maybe next time.
I found a post on the "Cult of the P7" board with pictures of what my gun looked like before it was NP3'd, and explanations for the markings.
http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=006567
These photos show the BYP on my slide, the same 11/83 date code as mine, the "15-" before the serial number, the Eagle symbol, what my factory target looks like (except mine grouped much tighter!), and what my box and tools looked like.
I didn't notice it before because it is very faint, but my gun does have the warning underneath the trigger guard as shown in the pictures on the thread above.
That guy bought his P7 at a gun show in Pennsylvania for $680 + tax from Ciampoli's Gun Shop, New Castle, PA, (724)654-1630. This is the best price I have seen on an non-refinished Bavarian police refurb. Carter Country charges $799 for the same gun without the refinish.
CONCLUSION
All in all, couldn't be more pleased with the purchase. Happy to answer any questions
As background, I really like the looks of the NP3/hard chrome refinished P7s and P7M8s that I have seen. To me, they are beautiful guns. I like the refinished look so much that if I were to find an all-black model at a good price, I would likely send it to Tripp's or Robar to have it refinished on my own dime.
In looking at P7 v P7M8, the major differences in design appear to be in the location of the mag release and shape/design of the trigger guard. The mag release on the P7 is not an obstacle in my mind, and most people say the heat shield in the P7M8 trigger guard is window dressing anyway.
With the cheaper prices on the used P7s, my mind was certainly open to going that route vs. a new or slightly used P7M8.
I have read the gun forums, and periodically checked the local gun stores, gun shows, auction sites and GunsAmerica with an eye on finding a good deal . . . but without a sense of urgency.
Then last week, I had a discussion with my gunsmith Teddy Jacobson ("Actions by T") about how these guns should become very valuable in time. In addition, Teddy thinks this is one of the finest guns ever made. So, I began to search in earnest with the P7M8 scheduled to go out of production.
I discovered a P7 on GunBroker that caught my eye. It is distributed by GSI out of Alabama, and refinished by Robar in NP3. The auction started at $959, with a $999 "buy it now" price + $25 shipping (and transfer fees of course).
I decided to call GSI myself to find out more. I spoke to Pete Yates. Apparently, GSI got about 100 of these guns in from Bavaria, and sent them to Robar. The refinish job cost them $225 per gun. The guns include box, two NP3 magazines, owner's manual, H&K factory test target, Robar lifetime warranty card, factory cleaning rod, and fired shell casing. When I called, GSI was down to 45 guns, and was shipping out 2 to 5 per day.
Pete would not quote me a price over the phone since I did not have an FFL, so I had my FFL call him for me. I found out the price was $859.95 + $12.50 shipping.
At $872 plus transfer fees, I don't think I will be able to find a significantly better deal on a refinished P7, and may not be able to do better buying a used black P7 and having it refinished myself.
So, I took the plunge!
Last night, I picked up the gun from my FFL. Here is my report.
The box appears new or at least well-preserved. On the front right, it says "HK P7". On the front left, it says "Heckler & Koch GMBH, Oberndorf/Neckar, Fed Rep of Germany." The front lid has the serial number of my gun painted in white - and that number is duplicated on the right side of the frame and slide.
Inside the box are several documents, 2 tools, a P7 pistol and 2 magazines. The owner's manual is in English. It refers to the P7M8, P7M13 and P7M10, not the P7. On the back, it says HK USA Edition 10/93. Clearly, this is not the original operator's manual.
In addition, there is the Robar warranty card with my gun's serial number on it. The card says P7M8 - typo I am guessing. It appears from reading the card the finish is under warranty against corrosion and peeling for the life of the gun (as opposed to only the first owner).
There is a factory HK target in German with my serial number on it. Looks like 3-4 bullets in one ragged hole. It appears the target was shot from 15 meters from the "15 m" mark in the "Entfernung" box. In the "Gerat" section, it says PISTOL P7 9MM COMPL. USED. The target is in excellent condition - it doesn't look 20 years old; it looks fairly new. The only numbers on the target that look like a date code read "02.04" Putting two and two together, I am assuming this target was shot in Germany shortly before it was shipped over.
There is a small brown envelope containing a casing collected by someone named Morlock. There is a label on the outside of the envelope which has H&K's address in Sterling, Virginia. There is an FFL number on the label. The date the shell was collected was "18.06.2004" which I presume to mean June 18, 2004. I am guessing the gun arrived in Virginia last summer, which makes the "02.04" date on the German factory target look right.
The tools included are a brand new wire brush scrubber for the cylinder, and a small flat black tool with 2 holes in it. Not big enough to be a scraper (no scraper included). One end of the small tool has a flat protrusion that fits the grip screws. The other end of the tool has a two-prongred protrusion that looks like it could fit in the two slots on the firing pin bushing. The P7M8 Operator's manual makes no mention of this little tool.
Now, for the good part. The gun is in excellent condition. The refinish looks first class. No scratches anwhere. The gun looks beautiful. I had read where the NP3 finish feels slippery. I don't notice the gun being slick at all.
The only part of the gun that looks used is the right grip panel. The left grip panel which says HK P7 at the bottom looks to be in excellent shape. The right grip panel has several scratches along the bottom and backstrap, and looks a little worn in comparison to the left grip panel. I might try to replace the right grip panel.
On the left part of the slide, it says HECKLER & KOCH GMBH, Oberndorf/N Made in Germany, 9x19. There is nothing on the left frame.
On the right slide, it has my serial number with a 15- in front of it that is stamped much deeper than the serial number, and not directly linear to it. I have read that the 15- means the gun was refurbished. That would not surprise me, given the new factory target. Next is BVP or BYP encircled in an oval. I was told by Pete Yates at GSI this indicates that the gun was issued to the Bavarian Police. Contininuing on the right slide, it says 11/83 which I take to mean the date of manufacture. Then there is an Eagle symbol, which overlays the last markings on the right slide "HK Inc. Sterling VA".
On the right frame, my serial number is repeated with a 15- in front of it, then there is the same eagle symbol. That's it for markings. And nothing has been struck through or milled out.
In gripping the gun, the squeeze cocker seems to require a little more pressure than some of the other P7's I have held. And when the grip is released, it's louder than some of the other P7's I have held. I have been told this indicates a new spring.
The two 8-round magazines have been refinished in NP3, and look good as new.
Without field stripping the gun, I took the P7 to the TopGun Indoor range in Houston with the only other 9mm I have in it's size range for comparison - a Kahr K9 Elite 98. I have shot the Kahr on numerous occasions prior to tonight. I had never shot a P7 before tonight.
I shot three different loads in each gun - Ranger T 147, Federal EFMJ 124+p, and Black Hills Remanufactured 147. I shot a total of 100 rounds. Both guns fed, fired and ejected all three rounds perfectly. Here are my impressions:
RECOIL
I found the P7 much quicker to regain the target. The recoil was about the same for both guns, maybe a tad less on the P7. But the Kahr had much more muzzle flip. Advantage P7.
TRIGGER
The Kahr trigger is exceptionally smooth. It is also quite long. The P7 trigger was a tad lighter, and MUCH shorter. This allows for much faster follow up shots. In fact, it took a little getting used to, as I would sometimes surprise myself by squeezing off a shot before I intended to. Once you get accustomed to the P7 trigger, it spoils you. Advantage P7.
ACCURACY
The Kahr K9 is known for it's accuracy. And I thought I was fairly accurate with it. But the P7 blew me away. Except for those shots that took me by surprise, I was dead on with it. By far the most accurate gun I own. Advantage P7.
The little Kahr is a helluva gun. Don't get me wrong. The P7 is just that good.
I took the gun home, field stripped it, and cleaned it. The internals of the gun are finished in NP3 as well. Despite the refinished internals, the gun was dirty from shooting, and took some effort to clean. After cleaning, I inspected the inside of the barrel, and it looks brand new. The gas piston did not clean up very well, but this is normal I am told.
OTHER COMMENTS
I love the fact the grip serves a slide release as well as a cocker. That's just cool - and makes for a fast first shot after a reload.
The heel mag release takes a little getting used to, but I think I am going to dig it. The mags don't drop fee with a push of a button, but are released about an inch have to be pulled out. If you hold the mag release down for a full second, the mag drops fully out.
I did not try shooting the gun in double action (ie holding the trigger and then squeezing the grip). Maybe next time.
I found a post on the "Cult of the P7" board with pictures of what my gun looked like before it was NP3'd, and explanations for the markings.
http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=006567
These photos show the BYP on my slide, the same 11/83 date code as mine, the "15-" before the serial number, the Eagle symbol, what my factory target looks like (except mine grouped much tighter!), and what my box and tools looked like.
I didn't notice it before because it is very faint, but my gun does have the warning underneath the trigger guard as shown in the pictures on the thread above.
That guy bought his P7 at a gun show in Pennsylvania for $680 + tax from Ciampoli's Gun Shop, New Castle, PA, (724)654-1630. This is the best price I have seen on an non-refinished Bavarian police refurb. Carter Country charges $799 for the same gun without the refinish.
CONCLUSION
All in all, couldn't be more pleased with the purchase. Happy to answer any questions
