What gun do I have?

[Jim K]

I am puzzled. Every time someone on a gun site mentions a light, compact gun for carry, someone always brings up the H&K P7. One poster suggests that it would be ideal for a teenage girl; another thinks it perfect for carry while wearing skimpy summer clothes; still another compares it to the Walther PP and PPK. One describes the trigger as "target quality, only a few ounces."

Now, I have gun marked HK P7. It is the 9mm M8 version with the single stack magazine. The slide on my gun is thicker than the slide of a GI M1911A1, and only an inch shorter. My P7 weighs more than my LW Colt Commander, and is about the same size. The gun is hard to cock with the cocking lever. Once cocked, the trigger is not bad, though not "target quality". Further, if the cocking lever is released, the gun is once more hard to cock. No "relaxed grip" for the P7 shooter, folks!

So, my P7 is neither small, nor light, nor easy to use, nor easily concealable, nor does it have a target trigger. So what gun do I have? Or have all those folks I mentioned been looking at pictures, not at an actual P7?

Jim

 

[barnbwt]

You have to understand; the P7 is very valuable, so all sorts of fools will claim to have experience with them . Or will magically form a spiritual attachment out of forlorn desire (that's probably most accurate). Though there is evidence to support the claim to a degree, I believe this to be the reason why the P7 and P210 are often fervently claimed to be the most accurate service pistols ever, as well as the most comfortable, best made, etc. It may or may not be true, but how many could possibly verify for a comparison?

Ironically, the gun you describe is kinda what the Remington R51 could be if Big Green ever gets that cranio-rectal-insertion-reversal surgery its been bugging the Cerberus HR department about

TCB

 

[Turkina]

The P7 is a love/hate weapon. I love HK's... but I am not fond grip of the P7 at all. I will not spend the money on one to see if I like it.

 

[rcmodel]

There is nothing light about them.

And they are top-heavy in a holster and tend to fall out if the holster isn't properly designed for them.

And yes, they are not small enough or light enough for carry in beach-wear.

Nor is the trigger 'a few ounces' light.
It is very good compaired to a Glock or something.
But not close to a good 1911 trigger.

They do have many redeeming qualities though.
For a full size combat duty gun, few are safer, easier to pick up and use, or more accurate.
Or more expensive.

And that right there was thier downfall.

rc

 

[Nom de Forum]

For two years I had a P7 issued as a sidearm. It was accurate but not 1911 National Match accurate. For its size it is heavy but its weight is neither heavy or light in comparison to other 9mms. When a pistol gets as heavy as a P7 I would rather have a pistol with greater magazine capacity even it it is a little heavier. When a pistol has the magazine capacity of a P7 I would rather have a much lighter pistol.

 

[bannockburn]

My ongoing problem with the P7 was with the squeeze cocking mechanism. It was stiff and required considerable effort to initially activate it and almost as much pressure to keep it there. I never really felt all that comfortable with my grip as well as the overall feel and balance of the gun.

 

[usp9]

The allure of the P7 isn't in the size, weight or capacity. It's the package as a whole - the unique safety qualities, the gas system, the quality and engineering. It's different and some people like that.

 

[Willie Sutton]

It was an evolutionary dead-end in handgun design. Darwin at work.

I was in NJ working in a LGS when the NJSP replaced their Ruger .357's with the P7. The most obvious change out on the road was a rash of troopers shooting themselves in the leg. The shop I was working in was about 500 yards from a NJSP barracks and many of the troopers came in as customers and social friends. None liked the HK. Any of them would have traded them in a split second for a Browning High Power (bear in mind that this was in the very early 80's).

It was an ingenious solution to a nonexistant problem, died a quick death, and was never resurected.

There's a reason for that.....

"Safe Queen" as a techical study sample is about what they are good for. They don't compare favorably with other designs else in any of the above recited roles (service, concealment, target, etc).


Willie

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[Toml]

Gee, and it dings up my brass.

 

[Telekinesis]

Well, I was one of those who commented on the other thread that it would work (never said it was perfect) for the OP's daughter, so I'll chime in here too. Another part of that equation was that the girl was a lefty. The P7 (as I'm sure you know) has the exact same controls whether you shoot with your right hand or your left, which makes it a good candidate for someone looking for an ambidextrous gun. About the only thing more difficult to use for a lefty would be the slide lock, which honestly can be difficult at the best of times. And if you look closely, the OP of that thread mentioned the P7 in his first post, which almost guarantees that someone will reply about it

In regard to the gun being used by a smaller girl, every five foot nothing, 100lb soaking wet sorority girl I've taken shooting has preferred my P7M8 to my Sigs and Glocks. I think they like the weight and low bore axis which helps when managing recoil. None have had an issue with the weight of the grip safety/cocking lever (may want to get your gun checked out if it's really difficult to use).

On the other hand, it's not a perfect gun. I'm not sure where someone got the idea that it was light or perfect for CCW in beach wear, as that's certainly not the case. I really like my P7M8 and enjoy shooting it when I go to the range, but when I CCW I carry a Sig 228.



Willie, I've always thought of those stories like the "Glock Leg" stories - as more of a training error than a design issue. I think it's hard to justify calling it a training error when a Glock is involved and a design flaw when a P7 is involved when it's essentially the exact same thing happening in each event.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Well, I was one of those who commented on the other thread that it would work (never said it was perfect) for the OP's daughter, so I'll chime in here too. Another part of that equation was that the girl was a lefty. The P7 (as I'm sure you know) has the exact same controls whether you shoot with your right hand or your left, which makes it a good candidate for someone looking for an ambidextrous gun. About the only thing more difficult to use for a lefty would be the slide lock, which honestly can be difficult at the best of times. And if you look closely, the OP of that thread mentioned the P7 in his first post, which almost guarantees that someone will reply about it

In regard to the gun being used by a smaller girl, every five foot nothing, 100lb soaking wet sorority girl I've taken shooting has preferred my P7M8 to my Sigs and Glocks. I think they like the weight and low bore axis which helps when managing recoil. None have had an issue with the weight of the grip safety/cocking lever (may want to get your gun checked out if it's really difficult to use).

On the other hand, it's not a perfect gun. I'm not sure where someone got the idea that it was light or perfect for CCW in beach wear, as that's certainly not the case. I really like my P7M8 and enjoy shooting it when I go to the range, but when I CCW I carry a Sig 228.



Willie, I've always thought of those stories like the "Glock Leg" stories - as more of a training error than a design issue. I think it's hard to justify calling it a training error when a Glock is involved and a design flaw when a P7 is involved when it's essentially the exact same thing happening in each event.

I can definitely understand how "every five foot nothing, 100lb soaking wet sorority girl" you've take shooting prefers the P7 over a Glock or Sig, the thin grip on the P7 is a better fit for their hands. The low bore axis helps, but recoil moderating weight of a full size pistol concentrated in a smaller package may be the biggest reason other than grip size. Let us hope they don't ever suffer "P7 leg" which, like the bank robber Willie Sutton, I too have heard of. It is a phenomenon having something to do with not just having to grip the pistol on the draw but having to squeeze with three fingers and a thumb to prepare a pistol to fire while resisting the instinct to squeeze with all fingers. I don't think the argument favoring the P7 for southpaws is very strong. Too many lefties out there using conventional pistols in competition to clean the clocks of righties for it to be a significant factor in ease of gun handling.

 

[gym]

It's like every other gun, some love it some hate it, and some have no clue what you are talking about, unlike most of you guys, but will still comment on it.

 

[oneounceload]

I own a P7 and while I love shooting it, it is NOT light or easily concealable for carry, especially on a small frame individual. There are much better choices as far as size and weight goes. That being said, its heft makes it easier to shoot for many folks who might have issues with recoil. Carry guns tend to become compromises - weight and size for recoil or small and light for easy concealment

 

[Fishbed77]

It was an evolutionary dead-end in handgun design. Darwin at work.

Maybe not. Walther appears to be resurrecting the gas-delayed blowback system of the P7 with their new CCP.

 

[tarosean]

It's like every other gun, some love it some hate it, and some have no clue what you are talking about, unlike most of you guys, but will still comment on it.

Welcome to the internet......

 

[CWL]

I think I was the first person who advised that a P7 series pistol may not be the best for a smaller statured person -even though I am a great fan of the pistols.

The squeeze cocker on a P7M8 needs 13 pounds of pressure to activate and 4 pounds to keep depressed. Not really that much but enough to keep some people from comfortably operating it. I have also taken many women out shooting and have witnessed several without the grip strength to operate them -and most of them were over 100lbs at least.

P7 family guns are rare pistols, even after the influx of police trade-ins of P7M8s followed by P7/PSPs. I suspect that many who recommend them don't own one, and may never even have fired one before. For me, it took several years after I first heard about them to finally seeing one in a store & buying it.

 

[Telekinesis]

It is a phenomenon having something to do with not just having to grip the pistol on the draw but having to squeeze with three fingers and a thumb to prepare a pistol to fire while resisting the instinct to squeeze with all fingers

If someone can't figure out how to squeeze a pistol tightly without pulling the trigger, they have no business carrying a pistol at all.

Also, several of the reports of people shooting themselves in the legs were when they were reholstering. That points to bad gun handling habits and not the user forgetting to not squeeze his trigger finger on the draw.

I don't think the argument favoring the P7 for southpaws is very strong. Too many lefties out there using conventional pistols in competition to clean the clocks of righties for it to be a significant factor in ease of gun handling.

I agree that there are a lot of lefties out there who run right handed guns very well (definitely better than me!). But you don't go into a thread with a guy asking about lefty-friendly guns for his teenage daughter and tell him that his daughter should just man up and use a right handed gun

 

[Nom de Forum]

If someone can't figure out how to squeeze a pistol tightly without pulling the trigger, they have no business carrying a pistol at all.
Also, several of the reports of people shooting themselves in the legs were when they were reholstering. That points to bad gun handling habits and not the user forgetting to not squeeze his trigger finger on the draw.

Pretty much the same type of argument and situation is stated anytime someone commits a mistake performing the manual of arms on any firearm. I would like to point out the Glock has much the same situation happening as the P7 but the P7 presents even more of a instinctive temptation to unintentionally squeeze the trigger.

I agree that there are a lot of lefties out there who run right handed guns very well (definitely better than me!). But you don't go into a thread with a guy asking about lefty-friendly guns for his teenage daughter and tell him that his daughter should just man up and use a right handed gun

I agree, but there are plenty of lefty-friendly semiautos that are not P7s. The Beretta 84 I mentioned by me in another thread being an example many women really like. It is prettier than a P7, easier to shoot, and has a more melodious name. Chicks dig that.

 

[Willie Sutton]

"Walther appears to be resurrecting the gas-delayed blowback system of the P7 with their new CCP"

Squeeze-cocking was the engineering feature I was referring to as an evolutionary dead end, not the action design per se.



"Pretty much the same type of argument and situation is stated anytime someone commits a mistake performing the manual of arms on any firearm. I would like to point out the Glock has much the same situation happening as the P7 but the P7 presents even more of a instinctive temptation to unintentionally squeeze the trigger."

^^ This. For those who can't walk and chew gum at the same time, the need to squeeze EVERY FINGER *except the one that is not supposed to be on the trigger but is supposed to not be squeezing either* seemed to be an insurmountable problem to overcome.

Statistically, the NJSP had a far higher ND rate with the P7 than any other issue sidearm. As someone who was selling them at the time (and who frankly was/is a HK admirer), I handled and shot them and wondered why in the world would anyone have a problem with them. But facts are facts... troopers had problems with them that were not seen before (in the day of revolvers) or since (Post P7 semiautos). Perhaps the transition from Ruger .357's to the P7 was just too much of a leap for them.

Note to self: Keeping the index finger off of the trigger until you need to fire is a good habit to learn early...


Willie

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[oldironsights]

There were squeeze-safety revolvers back in the 1800's.
The P7's squeeze cocker is also a safety.
I have one & love it. It is a challenge to reassemble after disassembly.
I was sweating bullets the entire time.........an overly complex design.
Thank GOD for smartphones with a camera. Pictures have saved me many times.
I also have a Steyr GB.
Both pistols use gas pressure to delay blowback, which enables the engineers to design a light slide as opposed to a heavy one like the HK vp70 or High Point.

http://www.msgunowners.com/t47378-its-a-gas

 

[Nom de Forum]

......I also have a Steyr GB.
Both pistols use gas pressure to delay blowback, which enables the engineers to design a light slide as opposed to a heavy one like the HK vp70 or High Point.http://www.msgunowners.com/t47378-its-a-gas

It also allows the pistol to be used by the ladies as a curling iron after a 100 rounds because it gets so hot. Well, except for the L.E.S. P-18 version of the Steyr GB. I am not sure anyone ever managed to fire 100 rounds through one of them before giving-up in frustration from all the malfunctions. It was truly a D.O.A. pistol, and I don't mean D.A.O.

 

[HKGuns]

I am puzzled. Every time someone on a gun site mentions a light, compact gun for carry, someone always brings up the H&K P7. One poster suggests that it would be ideal for a teenage girl; another thinks it perfect for carry while wearing skimpy summer clothes; still another compares it to the Walther PP and PPK. One describes the trigger as "target quality, only a few ounces."

I'd like to see the post that referred to the P7 as "light". The P7 is not light it is rather heavy. It is compact, but not the the in class of compact as defined today. I've also never seen it compared to the much smaller pistols from Walther. Are you trolling or being serious?

The gun is hard to cock with the cocking lever.

The squeeze cocker is far from hard to cock, if it is, there is something wrong with your pistol or your hand strength.

The only way to fire the pistol is to squeeze the cocker so yes, the trigger pull is light and crisp.

 

[Nom de Forum]

I'd like to see the post that referred to the P7 as "light". The P7 is not light it is rather heavy. It is compact, but not the the in class of compact as defined today. I've also never seen it compared to the much smaller pistols from Walther. Are you trolling or being serious?

The squeeze cocker is far from hard to cock, if it is, there is something wrong with your pistol or your hand strength.

The only way to fire the pistol is to squeeze the cocker so yes, the trigger pull is light and crisp.

Compared to most full-size semiautos the P7 is on the light side but is very heavy for a compact single stack 9mm pistol. The THR search function is your friend for finding a comment on the "light" P7. You might find one if you start with posts made by a P7 fan like RX-79G. It will not surprise me if you find someone using the word light to refer to the P7. It is a cult pistol with devoted followers, some of which are blinded by zealotry.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I guess I missed the other thread you guys are referring to. If I'd read anyone calling the P7 "light", "small as a Walther PPK" or "suitable for skimpy beachwear", I would have certainly taken them to task over it.

What the P7 is, is:
1. compact - it's competitors at the time were the P5 (Walther) and P6 (SIG) for the German LE contracts
2. safe - unless you put you finger on the trigger in violation of Rule 3. The action s uncocked until you squeeze the front strap and immediately safe as soon as you release it.
3. low recoiling - due to low bore and weight
4. ambidextrous -equally easy to cock, de-cock, release magazines and release a locked back slide with either hand.
5. accurate - with a good trigger for a service pistol
6. reliable - it has a straight feed from the magazine into the barrel and will continue to function with a broken extractor.

I've owned a PSP since they first became available. It cost $400 NIB and I carried it as a duty weapon...it replaced my Colt Combat Commander as my duty gun. It was just as accurate and I could shoot followup shots faster...this was using the slower Weaver technique. Our quarterly qualification was 36 rounds and the P7 never became uncomfortable to touch. If you want to shoot a lot of rounds (>50) through one, I'd recommend you bring two and switch off.

I also carried it off-duty in an Alessi CQC/s beltslide holster following a exchange of e-mails with Lou Alessi. He recommended the CQC as the P7 had a short slide and rear weight bias in the grip.

I also spent some time with the P7M8 and M13 when H&K was going after the LE market. They were offering the M8 for $353 and the M13 at $379. I even had a chance to shoot a magazine through the P7M7 chambered in .45 ACP. The only P7 I didn't like was the M10 chambered in .40, as it was very top heavy

The most fun I've had was shooting a compensated long slide M13. The compensator was integral with the lengthened slide.

I've taken many people shooting who wanted to try out my P7. No one complained about the 13 lbs it took to compress the frontstrap and they were surprised at how easy it was to keep it depressed. It is like a compound bow. Once you get pass the "click", the weight required to keep it depressed is only about 4lbs...about the same as a service 1911's trigger pull.

If you have a P7 which is much harder to keep cocked, I would suspect that there is something mechanically wrong with it and it is unsafe.

I currently have a PSP and and M8 and prefer to carry the PSP, as it is slimmer and less bulky

 

[Nom de Forum]

I guess I missed the other thread you guys are referring to. If I'd read anyone calling the P7 "light", "small as a Walther PPK" or "suitable for skimpy beachwear", I would have certainly taken them to task over it.

What the P7 is, is:
1. compact - it's competitors at the time were the P5 (Walther) and P6 (SIG) for the German LE contracts
2. safe - unless you put you finger on the trigger in violation of Rule 3. The action s uncocked until you squeeze the front strap and immediately safe as soon as you release it.
3. low recoiling - due to low bore and weight
4. ambidextrous -equally easy to cock, de-cock, release magazines and release a locked back slide with either hand.
5. accurate - with a good trigger for a service pistol
6. reliable - it has a straight feed from the magazine into the barrel and will continue to function with a broken extractor.

I've owned a PSP since they first became available. It cost $400 NIB and I carried it as a duty weapon...it replaced my Colt Combat Commander as my duty gun. It was just as accurate and I could shoot followup shots faster...this was using the slower Weaver technique. Our quarterly qualification was 36 rounds and the P7 never became uncomfortable to touch. If you want to shoot a lot of rounds (>50) through one, I'd recommend you bring two and switch off.

I also carried it off-duty in an Alessi CQC/s beltslide holster following a exchange of e-mails with Lou Alessi. He recommended the CQC as the P7 had a short slide and rear weight bias in the grip.

I also spent some time with the P7M8 and M13 when H&K was going after the LE market. They were offering the M8 for $353 and the M13 at $379. I even had a chance to shoot a magazine through the P7M7 chambered in .45 ACP. The only P7 I didn't like was the M10 chambered in .40, as it was very top heavy

The most fun I've had was shooting a compensated long slide M13. The compensator was integral with the lengthened slide.

I've taken many people shooting who wanted to try out my P7. No one complained about the 13 lbs it took to compress the frontstrap and they were surprised at how easy it was to keep it depressed. It is like a compound bow. Once you get pass the "click", the weight required to keep it depressed is only about 4lbs...about the same as a service 1911's trigger pull.

If you have a P7 which is much harder to keep cocked, I would suspect that there is something mechanically wrong with it and it is unsafe.

I currently have a PSP and and M8 and prefer to carry the PSP, as it is slimmer and less bulky

From experience carrying one for two years, I concur with your 1-6 list of attributes. I found it quick also and not a problem to cock or keep cocked. If HK had made its empty weight as light as a Glock it might still be profitable to keep in production even if expensive for the consumer.