My Sig and UPS, WARNING TO 18-20 YEARS OF AGE
- Thread starter BlazingAngel01
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waterhouse
Member
Well, that's a valid point, but UPS requires someone of 21 years of age for their "Adult Signature Required" packages.
From the UPS webpage:
Adult Signature Required: UPS will obtain the adult recipient's signature and provide you with a printed copy. Adult recipients must be at least 21. You may also view the adult recipient's signature online.
All the 2A stuff is irrelevant. If a shipper has selected the "Adult (over 21) Signature" option on the shipment, then UPS will be liable for the contents of the package if they fail to get a 21+ signature. It doesn't matter what is inside. It could be a box of marbles, and they are still beholden to the shipper for fulfilling the services paid for.
denfoote
Member
You experienced the UPS definition of "Adult Signature Required".
Personally, I don't screw around with them or Fedex any more!!
I have a friend with an FFL.
I take the gun and $5, hand both to him, and he drops it into the mail!!
Personally, I don't screw around with them or Fedex any more!!
I have a friend with an FFL.
I take the gun and $5, hand both to him, and he drops it into the mail!!
BlazingAngel01
Member
The ATF side of the story.
I made a phone call to the ATF Field Office to work thins out if it ever happens again and this is what they said. "If you own the weapon it is yours". " Only the ATF or Law Enforcement can Stop someone from owning a Weapon", "If I have work done one the weapon from a FFL they will return my Weapon or I must report it stolen"."If I ship a weapon and UPS, FedEx fails to return it I must call Local Law Enforcement or the ATF'.
"IF you are 18 -20 you own a handgun it is YOURS"."Don't let someone play you like it is not". "The Serial Number is it your name it is YOUR Responsibility treat it as such".If you have a problem Call Law Enforcement".
I made a phone call to the ATF Field Office to work thins out if it ever happens again and this is what they said. "If you own the weapon it is yours". " Only the ATF or Law Enforcement can Stop someone from owning a Weapon", "If I have work done one the weapon from a FFL they will return my Weapon or I must report it stolen"."If I ship a weapon and UPS, FedEx fails to return it I must call Local Law Enforcement or the ATF'.
"IF you are 18 -20 you own a handgun it is YOURS"."Don't let someone play you like it is not". "The Serial Number is it your name it is YOUR Responsibility treat it as such".If you have a problem Call Law Enforcement".
waterhouse
Member
I have also spoken to the ATF about this. I had a 19 year old that wanted me to sell a gun for him on consignments. It was a .22 pistol. I did not want to take possession of the gun and log it into my books until I was sure I could get it back to him if it did not sell.
I spoke to the ATF office in San Antonio and they very specifically told me that if I took possession of the handgun I would not be able to transfer it back to the guy since he was under 21. I have seen no law that makes me believe that what I was told over the phone is untrue.
I don't know whether there is a good answer to this kind of situation, but I wouldn't transfer a handgun to someone under 21 unless I could be shown a law, in writing, that said it was lawful.
But back to the case at hand, did the box Sig shipped to you come "adult signature required?" If so, then Guapo nailed it. It isn't a 2a issue, it is a contract issue between UPS and Sig. That gun may be rightfully yours, but the UPS guy doesn't know that. He just knows that his company agreed with his company's customer to deliver the gun to someone over 21 years of age.
I spoke to the ATF office in San Antonio and they very specifically told me that if I took possession of the handgun I would not be able to transfer it back to the guy since he was under 21. I have seen no law that makes me believe that what I was told over the phone is untrue.
I don't know whether there is a good answer to this kind of situation, but I wouldn't transfer a handgun to someone under 21 unless I could be shown a law, in writing, that said it was lawful.
But back to the case at hand, did the box Sig shipped to you come "adult signature required?" If so, then Guapo nailed it. It isn't a 2a issue, it is a contract issue between UPS and Sig. That gun may be rightfully yours, but the UPS guy doesn't know that. He just knows that his company agreed with his company's customer to deliver the gun to someone over 21 years of age.
Wes Janson
Member
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My understanding, and this could be completely erroneous, is that the key question is whether a transfer is taking place. When you take a firearm to a gunsmith, you don't fill out a 4473 to have it returned (I'd presume because the ownership remains yours). Direct to and from the factory does not require a 4473, so no problem. Involving an FFL suddenly brings in a 4473, and boom, you're stuck.
Not really sure what that means. How does taking a firearm to an FFL to ship back to factory and have factory ship back to FFL cause you to fill out the form again. The transfer of ownership never changed, it is still your firearm. I have shipped firearms back to factory for warranty repairs and I took it back to dealer I purchased from and they took care of everything. When firearm was returned dealer called me. I picked up and that was it no paper work to fill out. The reason people will take handguns to FFL to have them ship them is because an FFL can ship handguns using USPS and it is way cheaper.
There is an important distinction between two kinds of transfers. A transfer of ownership (to a non-FFL entity anyway) requires the 4473 and always implies the second kind of transfer: transfer of possession. It is this possession transfer which is the sticking point. If you ship a firearm to a dealer or manufacturer, or if you leave it with a gunsmith/shop beyond the close of business, the dealer or manufacturer is legally in possession of the firearm. This is something which must be logged by them in the so-called bound book. Anyone with FFL credentials (manufacturer, dealer, gunsmith) may not transfer possession of a handgun to anyone under the age of 21 even if the person is the legal owner of the firearm. That's where the problem is -- you may own it, but the entity in possession of it cannot transfer it back to you. The entity also cannot transfer it to someone else over the age of 21 without the 4473, in which case the person over 21 is now the legal owner of the firearm. It's an ugly situation.
That's funny. I have had the opposite problem. Back when I used to live in a very bad neighborhood, I came home to find a package on my front porch. "CONTAINS FIREARM" and "ADULT SIGNATURE REQUIRED" were plastered all over it. 30' away the bums, hookers and drug dealers were ambling back and forth, plying their respective trades. Fortunately none of them looked closely enough at the package to notice.
Mike
Mike
I also agree that the 2A/RKBA/Handgun issue in this is moot. The shipper specified that an adult signature is required. The shipping company defines "adult" as 21 and up, which is stupid, but they are the company the shipper elected to use. The actual content of the package is a non-issue. It could be an Ipod for all that it matters.
Now, it is a very valid point that if you're 18-20 years of age and you're shipping stuff back and forth, you need to make sure that your gunsmith/company is using a company that will not make it prohibitively difficult for you to get your package.
Mike
Now, it is a very valid point that if you're 18-20 years of age and you're shipping stuff back and forth, you need to make sure that your gunsmith/company is using a company that will not make it prohibitively difficult for you to get your package.
Mike
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