My thoughts on OC Spray

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I watched a demonstration of pepper spray and not one person was able to use the spray before the attacker was on top of them. Even with the can in their hands, no one was able to get the can into position and spray it before the person attacking was on top of them.

Add into the above problem that if you do spray it, who is going to be more affected by the spray, you or your attacker, and I'd rather trust my feet.

I've also watched a demonstration of someone actually getting sprayed with the pepper spray while running towards the person with the can. The person was screaming but made it past the person spraying. It didn't stop him before reaching the person with the spray. If someone is bent on doing you harm, they will be on top of you and in your face getting pepper spray on you.
 



Jeff White said:
I suggest you review all the use of force policies in every agency in the US before you start advocating that officers break them. The force continuum is a matter of policy with every police agency I'm aware of and the majority of the ones I've seen mandate chemical or taser before impact weapons.
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Jeff is correct.

SAPD has a force continuum very similar, but not mandatory to go 1,2,3. Sometimes it straight to deadly force. Like many departments, the use of the Taser if preferred to chemical for the simple reason:

  1. You have to be too close.
  2. You can be affected by your own spray.
  3. Doesn't always work especially against those high on drugs.

Impact weapons are also not always effective on druggies. Also, use of impact weapons often give the public the impression of "police abuse."

My use of spray is confined to dogs. Works very well on Rotts with an attitude. BTDT. As a civilian, my continuum is limited:

  1. Calm, peer to peer
  2. Presence in posture and voice.
  3. Warning of possible use of force/deadly force.
  4. Display of handgun, still holstered.
  5. If forced to draw, fire until the threat is ended.

Remember, I'm in Texas, and what my state laws allow may be far different that your state.


​
 
One's hypothetical thoughts are useful but they should be supported by actual well done field or experimental studies. Many what if's could be presented and one or two vivid instances reported where XY or Z happened. Vivid instances are usually overestimated in likelihood later.

So, the OP beyond speculating needs to comprehensively document when OC has not served a civilian well as compared to actually being useful. Then, one needs to compare the rate of successfuly navigating an encounter with a BG without using OC.

There are quite a few studies on police use on BGs and dogs. Google scholar them. Most suggest utility.

No weapon is perfect against a blitz attack that takes you by surprise. An impact weapon or a gun or a phaser.

In a sense, this is like the mouse gun arguments. What if a giant biker full of meth, covered with chains attacks you - wouldn't you rather have a 45 ACP full of blasto ammo? However, mouse guns do have efficacy and seem to prevent lots of crime.

Unless the OP can show that OC has not aided civilians as compared to other techniques that are actually going to be implemented by civilians (yes, study Gung-fu for years), it's really not useful to throw up what if's and strong conclusions without further evaluation and study. From the cop literature, it does suggest OC is useful.
 
I've never carried the stuff and probably never will. More choices usually equates to slower reaction time. I can see the usefulness of spray in some situations but it is very over-sold imo. Of course it beats having nothing and stats are that when the victim resists in any way at all the situation usually turns out better for it.
 
All I can say is that in my time as a police I never took a report nor did my agency (that I know of) where a citizen used OC to protect themselves.

I have also been unable to find any police officers that have used OC during a spontaneous event.
 
When I lived in New York State, I walked up on a mugging and the two bad guys tried to mug me. I was successful at getting the two punks to run away. I also had a can of pepper spray ready to go if they decided not to run away. I did not mention the pepper spray to the police when they took my report.

Yes, the key to any defensive item is having it available to use at moments notice.
 
The biggest problem facing a civilian and the carry of OC is the fact that unless it is in your hand at the time of the attack and your thumb is on the button the chance of being able to deploy it is slim.
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That's the main advantage of OC: You can walk down the street holding a cannister in your hand and it isn't illegal or alarming. Even if you have a CCW, you can't hold a gun in your hand at the ATM or an unsheathed fixed blade. Every time I use an ATM or walk home from the train after dark I have a canister of Fox Labs 5.3 in my hand.
 
IN MY HUMBLE OPINION,

Continuum of force rules exist to protect beurocracies from liability in the event a special interest group wants to accuse the police agency of using excessive force. They have nothing to do with the realities of violence. It's strictly about political correctness. In a situation where you or I would be justified in going straight to the shotgun, police must escalate in steps, and act in a way that will not scare the public. (Using a handgun where they SHOULD be reaching for the long gun.)

Having said that, I have recommended (and even given as gifts) sprays to friends who have need for self protection but are not physically or emotionally prepared to use deadly force. But in all cases I recommended to them that they take the steps necessary to graduate to being prepared and permitted to use deadly force.
 
spray them and they bum rush forward and get there hands on you they really don’t need their eyes anymore
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This is why it's important to learn wrestling.(Not pro-wrestling, but rather college wrestling or high-school wrestling.). If the guy is blind, you don't want to be grappling, because that takes way some of his need to see.
 
i carry OC, but i'm not a big believer in it. i carry it mainly because if it comes down to it, it shows a jury that i was willing to use less than lethal means to stop an attack, before i was forced to use deadly force.

i've been sprayed before, and while it sucked, it didn't exactly put me out of the fight.
 
I have also been unable to find any police officers that have used OC during a spontaneous event.
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I already posted one in this thread. Didn't it fit your definition of a spontaneous event? That's pretty much as close to a spontaneous event as an officer gets.

Jeff
 
OC isnt as effective as riot/tear gas is. Ive known alot of 120 pound midgets ENJOY inhaling that crap. Heck, i enjoyed inhaling that crap.

If it gets to hands on, a heavy blow from say a rock on the head is going to be more authoritative then a can of taco season.
 
One of the beauties of OC is that it is considered so minor a use of force that it becomes an option in situations where you either have to let the event continue until greater force is warranted or you escalate the situation preemptively.

The FBI still places OC after verbal commands and before physical contact in their Use of Force Continuum. OC is at its' best when it is used without preamble.

In other words, the first time the bad guy realizes that he is about to be sprayed is after his eyes are burning, he's having trouble breathing, etc. I don't see a lot of use for 'Get back or I'll spray you'.

Having OC in hand when transitioning [leaving structures, entering parking lots, stairwells, etc], is easily accomplished and it gives you an 'eye jab in a can' option to allow you to begin turning the situation to your advantage.

Much of the time when private citizens do use OC, I don't think they are calling the police and reporting it.

Have I used OC reactively? Absolutely. As a cop and as some dude living in the French Quarter.

I've also found it useful as a deescalation/area denial tool when dealing with normally aggressive panhandlers in New Orleans.

Trying to use a baton or pocket stick to solve those sorts of problems is problematical, at best. Don't get me wrong, I love beating things with sticks at least as much as the next guy, but I no longer carry a baton everyday. I do carry OC every day.
 
If it gets to hands on, a heavy blow from say a rock on the head is going to be more authoritative then a can of taco season.
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And that threat gives me a good reason to shoot you. Rock on the head = DEADLY FORCE. "Can of taco season" = attempt to get away. Of course, feel free to carry a big rock everywhere you go. It might get a little awkward. ;)
 
I can concur and agree with the view of a Use of Force Continuum being a shield from liability. Our insurance company specifically asked if we have a use of force continuum in place. When I patrol, I have a sidearm, Punch II OC, an M26 Taser, and an expandable baton on my belt, and the long guns in the car.

That being said, the only time I have ever used OC spray as a primary weapon was 7 years ago, doing unarmed security for a shopping mall. Seeing as how it was the only weapon I was permitted to carry at the time, I don't think it was so bad. It's certainly better than having to wrestle around with someone.
 
I am pretty much convinced that OC is a better choice than HTH combat. I at least have a chance with OC.

A stick is a close up weapon. You have to get real close to effectively use one. Even though I had some stick training a long time ago, it is not as easy to effectively use a stick against an attacker as you might think. If you are close enough to hit them with a stick, they are close enough to hit you with their fists. Back when I got my stick training, the guy that taught the class was a C.O. He repeatedly warned that you probably will only get one good blow in, and if you don't get it right the stick will be used against you. He pointed out that if you are grappling, the stick can become a liability because you are afraid to drop it, but may not be able to effectively use it at such close quarters. He was a big fan of using sticks against knees, shins, and ankles because it is relatively easy to strike there and get away. I never had to use the training, so have no idea whether he was right or not.

OC was not available back then (or maybe just real uncommon) and he did not think much of tear gas and sprays.
 


Back in the 1960s, we received training with the riot club which is about twice the length of a standard night stick. Personally, I preferred the platoon training with fixed bayonets for riot control. Last time I had a CS grenade tossed my way, I merely walked away from the cloud waited a couple of minutes for the wind to disperse it, and went back and got my canteen cup. Then I got POed. The CS had settled in my coffee. Talk about taste bad!


​
 
I can concur and agree with the view of a Use of Force Continuum being a shield from liability. Our insurance company specifically asked if we have a use of force continuum in place. When I patrol, I have a sidearm, Punch II OC, an M26 Taser, and an expandable baton on my belt, and the long guns in the car.
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When did Taser International start selling M26 Tasers to civilians? Who certified you? What is your company's use of force policy and use of force continuum? Who wrote it? Who is your insurance company? What training do you provide your employees with these tools? How often do you retrain? What is your license number?

You are in Strategies and Tactics now, not the general Discussion Forum and the standards here are much higher. You may post the answers here in this thread or you may send them to me by private message, but you will answer those questions if you want to continue to post here. You aren't going to come in to S&T and start something like your last thread in General Discussion.

Jeff
 
I will be more than happy to provide you with some of that information in a PM. Some of it, such as my insurance company name, I will not. Before you go lighting into anything here, please bear in mind that armed security officers in VA have police arrest authority for all offenses on private property, with the exception of traffic code, and in PA have limited arrest authority.

Bear in mind that the M26C Taser has been available to anyone who wants one for quite some time now. I'm just about getting damn tired of having to preface everything I say with a reference point, a birth certificate, and a letter from my third grade teacher.
 
Serious question, but inapplicable to me in any case: I'm severely asthmatic, and don't carry the stuff. But it's an interesting discussion.
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Have you given any thought to pepper foam? It doesn't disperse like pepper spray, so there's not as much problem with cross-contamination and overspray. If your plan is to spray and evade, it just might work for you. You'd have to test it very carefully to see if you can tolerate it, but it's a thought. The problem that our jailers have run into is that inmates can scrape it off and fling it back at you, but if you don't have to come in close contact, i.e., you're running away, that might not be an issue.
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My qualifications in this discussion are that I couldn't outrun an eight year old and like Pax, am severely allergic and asthmatic. :p I'm intrigued about the pepper foam....can you elaborate on its effectiveness for those of who would be hobbling away from the target of the foam, and maybe a line on brands that are most effective?

I have carried the spray before, and bought it for Youngest Son after he was attacked a couple of years ago. I was glad to have it in spots where I was not allowed to carry a gun (visiting in the hospital, for example, and having to go into the parking garage to get the car). But as my asthma's gotten worse, and after a year of restricted anti-allergy diet and allergy shots, and one anaphylaxis episode, I am VERY interested in finding an alternative that won't require me to whip out my Epi-Pen for *me* after spraying some mugger.

Getting old (and wheezy) stinks.

Springmom
 
can you elaborate on its effectiveness for those of who would be hobbling away from the target of the foam, and maybe a line on brands that are most effective?
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Ditto. I'm asthmatic and have sciatica. A little strain on the affected hip and I can't outrun a crawling infant.
 
armed security officers in VA have police arrest authority for all offenses on private property, with the exception of traffic code, and in PA have limited arrest authority.
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uh, what? You are overstating the powers vested in armed security guards in VA by a fairly large margin. To prove my point, I give you this from the code of Virginia:

9.1-146. Limitation on powers of registered armed security officers.

Compliance with the provisions of this article shall not itself authorize any person to carry a concealed weapon or exercise any powers of a conservator of the peace. A registered armed security officer of a private security services business while at a location which the business is contracted to protect shall have the power to effect an arrest for an offense occurring (i) in his presence on such premises or (ii) in the presence of a merchant, agent, or employee of the merchant the private security business has contracted to protect, if the merchant, agent, or employee had probable cause to believe that the person arrested had shoplifted or committed willful concealment of goods as contemplated by § 18.2-106. For the purposes of § 19.2-74, a registered armed security officer of a private security services business shall be considered an arresting officer.
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According to this, being an armed security guard in no way allows you to excercise any powers of a conservator of the peace, with the exception of detaining shoplifters, at which point the code clearly states that you are the arresting officer. That is a long, long way from having arrest authority on private property with the exception of traffic offenses. Frankly, I think you are vastly, vastly overstating your "power". I looked through the code for a good while, but if you can provide the statute that allows you to do anything but arrest shoplifters, I would love to see it.
 
I've also watched a demonstration of someone actually getting sprayed with the pepper spray while running towards the person with the can. The person was screaming but made it past the person spraying. It didn't stop him before reaching the person with the spray. If someone is bent on doing you harm, they will be on top of you and in your face getting pepper spray on you.
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Thats why you spray and move and not just stand there. If the oc is effective the person is not going to notice you moved and just keep going forward.
 
According to this, being an armed security guard in no way allows you to excercise any powers of a conservator of the peace, with the exception of detaining shoplifters, at which point the code clearly states that you are the arresting officer. That is a long, long way from having arrest authority on private property with the exception of traffic offenses. Frankly, I think you are vastly, vastly overstating your "power". I looked through the code for a good while, but if you can provide the statute that allows you to do anything but arrest shoplifters, I would love to see it.
Click to expand...

9.1-146. Limitation on powers of registered armed security officers.

Compliance with the provisions of this article shall not itself authorize any person to carry a concealed weapon or exercise any powers of a conservator of the peace. A registered armed security officer of a private security services business while at a location which the business is contracted to protect shall have the power to effect an arrest for an offense occurring (i) in his presence on such premises or (ii) in the presence of a merchant, agent, or employee of the merchant the private security business has contracted to protect, if the merchant, agent, or employee had probable cause to believe that the person arrested had shoplifted or committed willful concealment of goods as contemplated by § 18.2-106. For the purposes of § 19.2-74, a registered armed security officer of a private security services business shall be considered an arresting officer.

Notice it says a registered security officer can arrest for a crime in his or her presence OR In the presence of a merchant, agent etc. So the officer can arrest for shoplifting and for crimes committed in his presence.
 
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