Real world plinking 25 yard 22LR ammo comparison with hot barrel (Ruger 10/22 Collector #3 break in)

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by LiveLife, Nov 17, 2019.

  1. Picher

    Picher Member

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    When testing my Ruger 10-22, after accurizing, I had several lots of match ammo, etc. that I wasn't using much for Benchrest matches. The 10-22 loved some batches and not others, but shot 10 scaringly-tight groups at 50 yards one day, averaging 0.372" with Lapua Master.
    Prove It.png
     
  2. tallpaul

    tallpaul Member

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    What does your post have to do with anything? I am into airguns and likely have more than most but it has NOTHING to do with the original post does it?
     
  3. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    After 3000 rounds, I would say the factory 10/22 is now sufficiently "broken in" with smoother factory trigger. :D

    Here's another update. BTW, I got Burris FF 6.5-20x50mm scope from Dack Outdoors for $169 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/burris-fullfield-e1-6-5-20x-50mm-169-9-shipping.893341/#post-12061424


    Range Test #9 - 50 yard testing with Lead Sled Solo (Round count around 2960) - Free-floated barrel with V-block shim and electrical taped receiver for tighter fit


    Caldwell Lead Sled Solo was used for range test #9 but I wanted to eliminate the rocking movement of the center pivot bar so I stuck a roll of blue painter's tape in the back with a twist of the tension knob and presto, no more rocking movement.

    [​IMG]

    After shooting T/CR22 at 50 yards, I transferred the Bushnell Dusk & Dawn 6-18x50mm with Mizugiwa cantilever mount to 10/22 Collector #3 (Which came with picatinny rail installed from factory) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/thompson-center-t-cr22-real-world-25-50-yard-22lr-ammo-comparison-break-in.864241/#post-12075377

    [​IMG]

    My preferred shooting spot that's well protected from winds by tall trees was taken so I had to set up 50 yard shooting in an open spot but today was very windy and I ended up resetting my target board like 20 times (I got a lot of walking exercise though).

    Summary (Round count over 3000) - Aguila 40 gr CPRN (Aguila Prime) was used and not knowing where the POI was going to be, I aimed at the top right of copy paper with 8 circles marked on paper and POI hit low and to the left. Using that hole as my aim point, I shot the group on the left before adjusting the scope but I over corrected and produced tighter group on the right. (Shots went right to the edge of paper but there was no holes to the right of paper's edge)

    When I replace the T/CR22 factory barrel with KSA bull barrel, I plan to install the T/CR22 barrel in the 10/22 and see how group size compares.

    And can you say "Real World" dirty? When rounds wouldn't go into chamber due to crud build up, I brushed the chamber/magazine area with Hoppes #9 solvent and cycled the bolt a few times before continuing the test (Barrel has only been mopped several times with Hoppes #9 and no bore brushing during 3000 round testing ... I know, I know ... I plan to do dirty vs clean barrel group size comparison test after my cataract surgery later this week ... Stay tuned).
     

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    Last edited: Oct 5, 2021
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  4. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    After 26,000+ rounds shot the past 3 years out of several used 10/22s, new 10/22 Take Down and new 10/22 Collector #3 (Along with T/CR22 with slightly different order of accuracy results mostly confirmed by GSG 1911/Advantage Arms 22LR slide kit for Gen3 Glock 22 and CMMG 22LR conversion kit shot with several 16"/18"/20" ARs), here are my summary findings.

    With round count surpassing 3000 rounds for 10/22 Collector #3 (1000 rounds for T/CR22), I am concluding the ammunition comparison tests with nod to CCI SV/Blazer Lead RN and Aguila 40 gr Lead RN/CPRN (Eley/Aguila Prime) for consistently producing smaller 10 shot groups compared to other "bulk" commercial 22LR (boxed or loose) that are non-match ammunition often used for "real world plinking".

    Most accurate to least accurate ammunition with consistency of performance averaged over multiple 25/50 yard testing specific to 10/22:
    1. CCI Standard 40 gr LRN - Boxed - Consistent group size
    2. CCI Blazer 40 gr LRN - Boxed - Consistent group size
    3. Aguila 40 gr LRN - Boxed - Consistent group size
    4. Aguila 40 gr CPRN - Boxed - Consistent group size
    5. Federal Auto Match 40 gr LRN - Loose Bulk - Group size varied
    6. Federal Field Pack 38 gr CPHP - Loose Bulk - Group size varied
    7. Aguila 38 gr CPHP - Boxed - Consistent group size
    8. Remington Thunderbolt 40 gr LRN - Loose Bulk - Small to large groups with flyers
    9. Armscor 36 gr CPHP - Boxed - Varying group size with flyers
    10. Remington Golden Bullet 36 gr CPHP - Loose Bulk - Fairly consistent group size
    11. Federal Champion 40 gr LRN - Boxed - Group size varied
    12. Federal Value 36 gr CPHP 550 Walmart Red Box - Loose Bulk (new solid red box) - Group size varied
    13. Federal Value 36 gr CPHP 550 Walmart Red Box - Loose Bulk (old box) - Group size varied
    14. Winchester XPert 36 gr LRN 500 - Loose Bulk - Group size varied
    15. Federal Value 36 gr CPHP 525 Blue Box - Loose Bulk (older lot) - Group size varied
    16. Winchester 36 gr CPHP 555 - Loose Bulk - Group size varied
    17. Winchester M22 40 gr CPRN 500 - Loose Bulk (several misfires per box) - Group size varied with flyers
    Keep in mind that these results are from particular samples of 10/22s shot by me as other members have reported different accuracy and performance results from their 10/22s.

    And BTW, 10/22 Collector #3 continues to fire all sample ammunition without a single misfire/dud (With the exception of M22 which I stopped testing) even when dirty from gunk build up to the point of rounds not fully chambering and brushing of chamber/magazine area with Hoppes #9 continued reliability. Of course, consider that ammunition purchased during the past 3 years by me may perform differently from ammunition purchased by other members due to transportation extremes of vibration/bump to shake priming compound away from the rim especially loosely packed bulk ammo, storage condition in terms of temperature, age, etc.

    As barrel rifling continues to wear or not happy with accuracy results, some 10/22 owners replace factory barrel to improve accuracy. I will be continuing my testing with KSA 16.5" bull barrel so stay tuned for additional range tests.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2021
  5. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    For this "real world" thread, factory 10/22 trigger was left stock to break in just with shooting to better reflect what an average "plinker" would do with their 10/22.

    "I initially thought about doing a light trigger job/polish with the first cleaning (to reduce round count until trigger broke in/smoothed out) but in the spirit of this "real world" thread, will hold off and allow the factory trigger to break in naturally."
    Nothing special was done to the trigger, rather it was intentionally not cleaned/lubed, until 1000 round count where the entire rifle (Except for the bore which was dry patched) was cleaned with Hoppes #9 and lubed with WD40 Specialist as outlined on post #15 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/real-world-plinking-25-yard-22lr-ammo-comparison-with-hot-barrel-ruger-10-22-collector-3-break-in.859106/#post-11296626

    Now with over 3000 rounds fired with no additional cleaning/lubing, trigger has lightened further from 5 lbs to around 4.7 to 4.8 pounds.

    This is the "breaking in" of factory 10/22 trigger by round count:
    • 0 rounds out of the box - 7.5 lbs
    • 2000 round count - 5.0 lbs
    • 3000 round count - 4.7-4.8 lbs
    In comparison, T/CR22 trigger pull with 1000 round count consistently measures at 4.5 lbs and definitely lighter and smoother than 10/22 which provides a lot of initial take up pressure (Feels like pushing on a wall) before hammer is released (To my trigger finger, YMMV).
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2021
  6. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Since this is a "real world" thread, I thought about not doing a trigger polish job but thinking about swapping out the factory 10/22 trigger with T/CR22 factory trigger or trying out KIDD "trigger job" kit I am thinking about installing in the T/CR22 along with the KSA bull barrel - https://www.kiddinnovativedesign.com/KIDD-Trigger-Job-Kit-with-Hammer-Sear-Disconnect-and-Trigger-blade_p_116.html

    [​IMG]

    Looking at this target I shot yesterday in very windy condition, I initially thought the "scatter" I saw in the left group was likely from ammunition/trigger but then tighter group on the right was produced after scope adjustment (Scope/mount was moved from T/CR22) and have been scratching my head what to make of it. (I will be ruling out scope/mount with use of new Burris scope and new scope rings, unless there's issue with Burris scope/rings ;))

    I will repeat the range test using Burris FF E1 6.5-20x50mm on standard scope rings instead of AR cantilever mount that's been easy to move the scope around to different rifles (Although I have several Minox/Bushnell Trophy 3-9x40, cataract has hindered shooting with scope but final cataract surgery later this week! :thumbup:) and thinking about leaving the Bushnell 6-18x50mm on the 10/22 with standard scope rings for barrel swap testing with T/CR22.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2021
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  7. d2wing

    d2wing Member

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    I appreciate what you are doing. Could you simplify it by saying what improved your groups and what did not?
     
  8. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    To me, the following had the most significant influence on the group size produced by "stock" 10/22 Collector #3 from most to least (At least my theory and opinion ;)):
    1. Ammunition selection - As well documented by numerous 10 shot groups captured, scatter group from one brand shrinking to a tight cluster immediately by another brand and back proved to me that 10/22 barrel/chamber is ammunition sensitive with cold or hot barrel.
    2. Transport/Storage/Handling condition of ammunition - I have done another myth busting thread where it is suspected that while all 22LR cases get primed, during transport and storage/handling of ammunition, priming compound could move away from the rim to affect primer ignition consistency even to produce duds with no priming compound left in the rims. Since I reload, I am aware of primer flash size/duration variation and this could affect performance of 22LR in reliable bolt cycling, feeding/chambering from the magazine and group size (Variance in muzzle velocity could show on target as vertical stringing). As well documented, various brand/weight ammunition purchased the past 3 years all fired reliably in new 10/22 and T/CR22 with the exception of M22 during 4000 round combined testing.
    3. Boxed vs Loosely packed "bulk" ammunition - As expressed above and demonstrated by test results, I believe boxed packaging better protects finished rounds than loosely packed rounds (Think priming compound moving away from rim bit by bit from rounds banging on each other to affect powder burn and chamber pressure)
    4. Trigger - Since I free floated the barrel early on in the testing, I could be wrong but trigger pull going from gritty 7.5 lbs to cleaner/smoother 4.7-4.8 lbs is huge in my book. Since you shouldn't dry fire 22LR, you could do a trigger polish job instead of shooting 3000 rounds. :p
    5. Free floating the barrel with V-block shim - Barrel harmonics/whip/timing is real as demonstrated by "flyers" or "scatter" that we see on target. Unless you can "tune" the barrel harmonics or restrain with fixtures, I think free floating helps reduce group size instead of barrel contacting portion(s) of stock -
      https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/real-world-plinking-25-yard-22lr-ammo-comparison-with-hot-barrel-ruger-10-22-collector-3-break-in.859106/#post-11307816
    6. Securing rear of receiver - Since 10/22 is only held by one tension screw (Especially if free floating the barrel), better securing the receiver from moving side to side will reduce group size. I accomplished this by simply adding a strip of electrical tape to the rear of receiver and carefully installing the receiver in the stock for a firm/tight fit - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/real-world-plinking-25-yard-22lr-ammo-comparison-with-hot-barrel-ruger-10-22-collector-3-break-in.859106/page-2#post-11351163
    7. Tension screw - If there is play with rear of receiver and barrel is free floated, receiver and barrel becomes a seesaw with tension screw being the fulcrum. Applying enough tension to keep group size consistent is key and better securing the rear of receiver (Even with a simple strip of electrical tape) definitely helps tension screw work better to prevent movement of muzzle.
    8. Cleaning and not cleaning - While the action/trigger were cleaned every 1000 rounds and chamber/mag well as needed to reliably feed rounds, bore was intentionally left not cleaned and either dry patched or swabbed with Hoppes #9 and dry patched. I will be conducting comparison test between 3000 round "dirty" bore vs cleaned bore for group size so stay tuned.
    9. Burnishing the bore/rifling - I think it helps to fire several hundred rounds of copper plated/washed bullets to smooth the inside barrel surfaces before firing lead bullets.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2021
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  9. d2wing

    d2wing Member

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    Thank you for that summery. That helps me understand what you have accomplished..
     
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  10. film495

    film495 Member

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    I have a few months old 10/22 standard carbine. Maybe have about 500 rounds through it. I haven't been keeping track exactly, but it has only had bulk pack 40 gr LRN Federal through it. Haven't done any real groupings etc with it yet, but one in about 75 or 100 is a dud on first firing pin strike, each one of those 5 or 6 rounds fired on the 2nd time through the chamber. I suspect it is the ammo, but certainly not sure at this point. May try some other ammo this weekend to see if the same fail to fire once in a while is the same with other ammo types also.

    Zero feed or eject issues, just a 1% ish fail to fire so far. Fun plinker to shoot, put a 2.5x old scope on it, easy to hit 6" steel at 50 yards. Now to keep moving back, and maybe put out some smaller targets for a challenge.
     
  11. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    You could try this "real world" 50 yard challenge - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/myth-busting-“real-world”-22lr-50-yard-challenge.895021/

    Challenge rules:
    • Without warm up, shoot one shot per circle.
    • If bullet hole touches line, continue to smaller target (As steel plate would have moved).
    • If hole is outside of line, stop shooting and submit target with information added to the table by taking a picture of completed target.
    • Additional submissions can be done using different ammunition.
    • NOTE: If you KNOW your rifle is capable of shooting sub 1" at 50 yards, I have no issues if you want to start out at 1". I think starting out with 2" circle would benefit those members with "non-match grade" rifles.
    My hope is members "myth bust" or "confirm" actual accuracy of their 22LR rifles and ammunition.

    Here's the target pdf for the challenge - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?attachments/thr-50-y-22lr-challenge-pdf.1026349/&temp_hash=1dd6363a6811f17cac47cc85e39e57e0
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2021
  12. film495

    film495 Member

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    when I saw this thread I figured we were not good enough, but for fun I'll play ...
     
  13. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Range Test #10 - 50 yard "dirty barrel" testing with Lead Sled Solo (Round count over 3000) - Free-floated barrel with V-block shim and electrical taped receiver for tighter fit

    [​IMG]
    Got the scope mounted with new rings on the 10/22 Collector #3 and did some reference 50 yard groups in preparation for the "Myth busting dirty vs clean 22LR barrel accuracy" thread.

    Barrel has not been cleaned intentionally during the 3000 round break-in and was only mopped with Hoppes #9 and dry patched with Viva paper towel at 1000 round intervals (Chamber and barrel crown were cleaned with Hoppes #9 when needed).

    Unlike Range Test #9, today for Range Test #10 was sunny with no wind. :thumbup: And like Range Test #9, Lead Sled Solo use was continued with roll of blue painter's tape still stuck to stabilize the rocker arm.

    [​IMG]

    "Dirty barrel" reference target #1 - 50 yards:

    [​IMG]
    • CCI SV 40 gr LRN #1 - As usual, reference group #1 was sub 1"
    • CCI Blazer 40 gr LRN - Nice tight group slightly larger than 0.5" center-to-center :thumbup:
    • Federal Champion 40 gr LRN - This was the smallest group with this ammo of sub 1" with one flyer
    • Federal Game Shok 40 gr CPRN - At 1.75", this has been the norm
    • CCI SV 40 gr LRN #2 - Reference group #2 was shot to verify accuracy and 0.75" center-to-center
    • Federal Auto Match 40 gr LRN - I do get flyers with Auto Match but those 3 are wild
    • Federal Field Pack 38 gr CPHP - Group size just over 1.75"
    • Federal 550 Value (New red box) - This is the latest Walmart only packaging with solid red color box and pretty typical 2.25" group
    "Dirty barrel" reference target #2 - 50 yards:

    [​IMG]
    • Aguila (Eley Prime) 40 gr LRN #1 - I usually get group size comparable to CCI SV and 1.5" group was a surprise
    • Aguila (Eley Prime) Pistol Match 40 gr LRN #1 - I am not sure what happened with the vertical stringing (And look at horizontal stringing of group #2) and even checked the scope bolts and they were tight.
    • Aguila (Eley Prime) 40 gr CPRN #1 - I usually get sub 1" groups
    • Aguila (Aguila Prime) 40 gr CPRN - Sub 1.5" group
    • Aguila (Eley Prime) 40 gr LRN #2 - Reference group #2 was shot to verify accuracy and group size decreased to sub 1.25"
    • Aguila (Eley Prime) Pistol Match 40 gr LRN #2 - Started out with tight 5 shot group but horizontally stringed with a flyer and ended with sub 1" group
    • Aguila (Eley Prime) 40 gr CPRN #2 - Vertical stringing increased the group size to 1.75"
    • Aguila (Aguila Prime) 38 gr CPHP - This ammo hasn't been producing good accuracy for me but sub 1.5" is on the smaller size for this ammo
    "Dirty barrel" reference target #3 - 50 yards:

    [​IMG]
    • Remington Thunderbolt 40 gr LRN - "Thunderdud" continues to produce 100% reliable primer ignition for me with 1.25" group with two flyers
    • Winchester 555 36 gr CPHP - Winchester ammo haven't been producing good groups for me and 1.75" is pretty good
    • Winchester XPert 36 gr LHP - I am surprised that I got sub 2" group
    • Federal 525 Value Blue Box #1 - Federal Value bulk packs were shot to further verify accuracy at the end (As my 10/22s haven't liked Federal Value packs) and surprising 1" group with one flyer - Smallest 50 yard group from Federal "Value" bulk packs during 27,000 round testing over 3 years. :thumbup:
    • Federal 550 Value Red Box (Old) - This is the old Walmart only packaging and 1.75" group size
    • Federal 525 Value Blue Box #2 - This is a new box I opened and respectable 1.5" group size
    • Federal 550 Value Red Box (New) - New Walmart only red box shot to verify accuracy and the barrel must be getting really dirty with 3" group. :D
    Summary (Round count 3500) - Pretty happy with slightly larger than 0.5" group with CCI Blazer. Barrel will now be cleaned for the new myth busting "Dirty vs Clean" barrel testing and looking forward to the results. Trigger pull has decreased from new 7.5 lbs down to less than 4.5 lbs now.
     

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  14. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Range Test #11 (Round count 3500) - 50 yard "clean barrel" testing with Lead Sled Solo, free-floated barrel with V-block shim and electrical taped receiver for tighter rear receiver fit. Factory trigger went from 7.5 lbs out of the box to 4.5 lbs. Barrel bore was cleaned with 20 minute Hoppes #9 soak mopped twice at 10 minute mark and brushed twice with copper bore brushed from chamber to muzzle (Hardly anything came out). After several passes with Viva paper towel, patch came out clean. No sign of leading of barrel before/after cleaning bore. Muzzle crown had caked on fouling build up which was scraped and cleaned with Hoppes #9.

    This range test was used for "Myth Busting - Dirty vs Clean 22LR barrel accuracy" thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/myth-busting-dirty-vs-clean-22lr-barrel-accuracy.897763/

    [​IMG]

    Due to forecast of rain, I decided to start out with Aguila 40 gr CPRN (which has consistently produced smaller groups during 3500 round 10/22 and 1500 round T/CR22 testing) instead of testing various brand/weight ammunition tested for baseline "dirty barrel" groups for Range Test # 10.
    • While I expected larger than "dirty barrel" groups, initial sets of groups fired to verify scope zero showed more erratic barrel whip/harmonics that probably showed as odd vercial/horizontal/angled flyers, dispersion, scatter and stringing as shown in above four groups. (I think this was anticipated as many shooters reported poor accuracy until barrel bore got "seasoned" again to produce accuracy level of "dirty barrel")
    • Eley prime group started out with tight 5 shot group that opened up
    [​IMG]

    I continued shooting Aguila groups to see if "seasoning" of bore would produce smaller group size trend.
    • Aguila prime somewhat produced slightly smaller 5 shot core group size reduction which likely requires additional testing to verify.
    • Eley prime group produced surprisingly tight 1/2" 5 shot group that mostly remained with a flyer which could have been shooter jerking the trigger. Quite impressive group.
    • Federal 525 round blue box did not do as well as initial groups were larger than baseline "dirty barrel" groups which were smaller than 1.5".
    [​IMG]

    With occasional rain drops falling on my head, I wanted to test as many different ammo but when I looked for the ammo can with CCI SV/Blazer, I realized that ammo can was not packed so I decided to test another lead round nose other than Thunderbolt which has been shooting erratic in both 10/22 and T/CR22.
    • While group size of Aguila 40 gr Lead RN Pistol Match was not remarkable, "scatter" pattern was more diffused and consistent. (Will do more testing after the rain particularly compared to CCI SV and Blazer Lead RN which produced very small groups with "dirty" barrels.)
    [​IMG]

    With time running out before rain, I decided to do quick verification groups with Aguila 40 gr CPRN (Aguila and Eley prime).
    • Aguila prime group started out with tight 3/4" 5 shot cluster that opened up
    • Eley prime group started out with 1/2" 5 shot group that opened up
    Summary (Round count 3650) - At this point I am not sure if further reduction in some core group size was from cleaning of barrel or from factory trigger further breaking in from 7.5 lbs down to 4.5 lbs after 3500 round count. And as many posted that I may be seeing re-seasoning of barrel after cleaning the bore. Since the barrel is free-floated with a V block shim, flyers I am seeing could be from barrel whip/harmonics.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2021
  15. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Range Test #12 (Round count 3650) - 50 yard "clean barrel" testing after 150 rounds shot after cleaning

    Had a break in the rain and was sunny today so I hopped over to my shooting area for another range session.

    NOTE: Although it was sunny, shooting area gets shaded in the afternoon and quickly dipped down to 50F and I was dressed light and started experiencing freezing cold hand and ended the shooting session early.

    [​IMG]
    • Shot two rows of 3 groups with Aguila prime followed by Eley prime 40 gr CPRN
    [​IMG]
    • After shooting two rows of Federal AutoMatch, Field Pac, and Thunderbolt groups, shot verification group with Aguila (Aguila prime) 40 gr CPRN.
    [​IMG]
    • By the time these groups were shot, I was quite chilled but I did managed to find a brick of Armscor 36 gr CPHP so I added to the test.
    Summary (Round count 3850) - 350 rounds were shot since barrel was cleaned and while I have seen some group size trending smaller, not sure if that may be part of group size spread for those particular ammunition. The shaded 50F shooting area being cold did have an affect on my shooting to the point where I had to end the shooting session early.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
  16. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    "Real World" Factory Stock Break-In Conclusion and Final Thoughts - For those who shoot "factory stock" 22LR plinkers, I started this thread to reflect "real world" out-of-the-box shooting with minimal cleaning and monitor accuracy trend during barrel/trigger break-in with cheaper commercial "bulk" ammunition.

    These are what I have learned during this project:
    • 10/22 with 7.5 lbs trigger can be reduced down to 4.5 lbs by shooting several thousand rounds - If you want smoother trigger without spending the money on ammunition, BX or aftermarket trigger replacement may be a good option along with a trigger job.
    • 10/22 is selective with ammunition and can produce varying level of 50 yard group sizes ranging from around 1" to over 2.5" with consistency heavily dependent on ammunition.
    • 10/22 primer "misfire or failure to go bang" may be due to firing pin/channel in need of cleaning as 10/22 used for this thread has essentially been 99.9% reliable with primer ignition using various brand/weight ammunition, including the dreaded "Thunderbolt" that was 100% reliable during the test. During nearly 4000 round testing, 10/22 experienced only several "misfires" at the end due to fouling build up that fired on second primer strike along with possibility that priming compound may have migrated away from the rim due to shipping vibration/handling - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/myth-busting-22lr-no-dud-why-dud-thread.893062/
    • Since free-floated 10/22 is anchored at only one point, better securing the rear of receiver with a strip of electrical tape will reduce receiver/muzzle movement during firing.
    As a teenager, I learned to shoot with a 10/22 and have many fond memories. While I enjoyed the Take Down model, since pressure on forearm produced slight deviation of point of impact even with barrel ring tightened, I have really appreciated the stocked model, especially Collector #3 with full-length modular stock and factory scope rail.

    After factory trigger break-in down to 4.5 lbs, depending on the ammunition used, sub 1" 10 shot groups were possible with many starting out as 1/2" 5 shot groups.

    I thought about replacing the barrel and trigger but during the near 4000 round testing, I have grown fond of this 10/22 to where I may keep it just as it is, factory stock. But that may change after I do the "Accurizing 22LR on the cheap" thread.
     
  17. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Well, here's an interesting update.

    I thought the extreme outlying "flyers" in some of the groups, sometimes that came from nowhere unexpected (Meaning, I knew I did not pull/push the trigger to cause it ... so I thought), especially when flyers were not left/right dispersion.

    Since 10/22 barrel was free-floated with V block shim, I reasoned these extreme outlying flyers were from barrel harmonics/whipping and even considered using barrel tuners to minimize flyers but since this was "real world ... factory" thread testing many different ammunition, I decided against it.

    But during range testing of KSA bull barrel for "Accurizing ... on the cheap" thread where 16.5" bull barrel should have eliminated the barrel harmonics/whipping scatter, I noticed telltale signs of me pulling/pushing the trigger (T/CR22 trigger under 4 lbs after 2000 round break in) to induce flyers, and not necessarily left/right dispersion - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/real-world-accurizing-22lr-on-the-cheap.898035/#post-12130561

    So perhaps the extreme outlying flyers I saw may not have been from barrel whipping but rather from trigger pull/push moving the muzzle? To test this theory, when I ordered the Volquartsen 2.5 lb hammer trigger kit, I also ordered another kit for the 10/22 to see if these outlying flyers disappear with factory barrel.

    If that's the case, at $40 for the kit, it's a nominal cost for the price of a box of ammunition to significantly reduce group size for my otherwise "factory" 10/22. I am curious about the range trip.
     
  18. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Northwest Coast
    4600 round barrel wear update - Modification work on 10/22 is continuing in the "Accurizing 22LR on the cheap" thread with additions of one-piece scope mount and Volquartsen trigger (Brought 4.5 lbs factory trigger pull down to 2.25 lbs). During Tactical Solutions V block installation to address under barrel gap/barrel droop, barrel was removed for second brushing of bore (First brushing was done for dirty vs clean barrel comparison) and took the opportunity to take some pictures of the chamber and rifling.

    After bore was mopped and soaked with Hoppes #9 for 10 minutes, copper bore brush soaked with Hoppes #9 was run through three times. Bore was then dry patched. After 4600 rounds of mostly copper plated/washed bullets, I am happy to report clean chamber with sharp and smooth rifling without signs of leading down the bore (12 land/groove rifling of KSA bull barrel out of the box for comparison). Since factory barrel has shown accuracy averaging quarter/nickel sized 10 shot groups at 50 yards down to penny/dime sized 5 shot groups, I do not plan on replacing the barrel.

    [​IMG]
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    5 minute scrub with Scotch Bright green pad smoothed the rough inside of receiver

    [​IMG]

    For those experiencing barrel droop/cant issue, particularly with scope mount that pushes down on top of the barrel (Likely making barrel droop/cant worse) that forces maximum scope vertical adjustment, consider the following. Picture below shows factory V block with under barrel gap. With the V block removed, barrel did not budge as scope mount was pushing down on top of the barrel. When the scope mount was removed, barrel slid out easily. Rather too easy as there was definite play that allowed the barrel to move up and down when inserted in the receiver (This is the cause of the barrel droop/cant).

    [​IMG]

    Tactical Solutions stainless steel V block with larger angled upper portion fills the gap and better supports the bottom of barrel to "push" the barrel up as the V block bolts are tightened ($19 was the lowest price I could find) - https://www.eabco.net/Tactical-Solutions-Stainless-Steel-Ruger-1022-V-Block-_p_14113.html

    [​IMG]

    After Tactical Solutions V block was installed, factory scope mount was installed and with it pushing down on top of the barrel, hopefully will result in tighter barrel mounting to receiver for smaller groups (Especially with barrel free floated with plastic shim under the V block that allows a sheet of copy paper to slide around the barrel). Will post an update with a range report.

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    Last edited: Jan 12, 2022
  19. Picher

    Picher Member

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Location:
    Maine
    That's a lot of shooting. Your rifle obviously has a very good factory barrel. My B.I.L.'s stainless 10-22, after a full bedding and tuning job, just wouldn't group tighter than about 2" at 50 yards, regardless of ammo used.

    After replacing the barrel with an after-market bull, it shot as well as my fantastic Shilen bull-barreled, fully tuned rifle. It's amazing how much accuracy variation there is among various "target" ammos out there, as well as the fact that the best ammo for one 'tuned" rifle is often, but not always among the best in others.
     
  20. bigmike45

    bigmike45 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2004
    Messages:
    1,305
    Location:
    Texas
    LiveLife,
    Thank you for all the testing and great information. I have a Savage bolt action gun that I shoot for accuracy. It is a hole in a hole shooter when I do my part. I also have a 10/22 take down that is a decent shooter. I really enjoy shooting the 10/22 but would like to squeeze some more accuracy from the stock barrel so I am going to try your free float modifications to see if it has any affect. One thing I did was to change out the factory trigger to a Timney that has already made a big difference in the consistency of the shots and made the gun a lot more pleasurable to shoot.
     
  21. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    27,965
    Location:
    Northwest Coast
    With component shortage, decided to shoot up stock piled 22LR ammunition to conserve reloading components for centerfire calibers. Between 10/22 and T/CR22, I shot around 8000 rounds so far and plan on shooting more until component prices fall and become more available.

    I was pleasantly surprised by factory 10/22 barrel. While I expected rifling wear after several thousand rounds to affect accuracy, it seems to be shooting better now than ever and chamber/bore pictures show sharp and clean rifling after 4600 rounds with only 2 bore brushing. I am going to keep shooting until accuracy deteriorates.

    T/CR22 factory barrel testing is done after almost 3000 rounds and I am moving onto KSA 16.5" bull barrel testing with promising initial groups now with one-piece scope mounts. BTW, I found your threads on RFC and have really appreciated the 10/22 accurizing information for the "22LR accurizing on the cheap" thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/real-world-accurizing-22lr-on-the-cheap.898035/

    Based on the information gleaned from RFC threads, I have installed Volquartsen Target Hammer trigger kits on both 10/22 and T/CR22 that brought trigger pull down to around 2 lbs, installed Tactical Solutions V blocks, Power Custom CNC machined bolt (With option for last round bolt hold open) with pinned titanium firing pin and extractor (T/CR22 factory bolt comes pinned) and planning to better bed receiver/barrel next with possible barrel tuning work afterwards.

    I found the same while testing around 20 different brands/weights of 22LR ammunition in the "break in", "dirty vs clean barrel" and "accurizing" threads.

    It was surprising to see 3/4" 10 shot group with one brand of ammunition go to 2" group with another brand ammunition only to return back to 3/4" group back to back proving definite preference for particular ammunition.

    And what shot well in 10/22 barrel was different for T/CR22 barrel.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2022
  22. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    27,965
    Location:
    Northwest Coast
    You are very welcome and glad my "plinking fun" with 22LR is benefiting others. Hopefully, my range test results help save some money and ammunition for THR members identify mods/ammunition combo that will produce smaller groups.

    Not all 10/22s are the same and some may benefit from free-floating the barrel and some may not. So do a good baseline/reference group shooting before free-floating the barrel for comparison to see if free-floating produces smaller groups. (Mine did and I verified several times on different range trips)

    And if you experience barrel droop/cant, especially after free-floating the barrel, consider using Tactical Solutions V block to better support the barrel - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/real-world-plinking-25-yard-22lr-ammo-comparison-with-hot-barrel-ruger-10-22-collector-3-break-in.859106/page-3#post-12174109

    Yes, I agree on the trigger.

    Factory trigger pull on my 10/22 was gritty 7.5 lbs out of the box and reduced to 4.5 lbs after 4000 rounds. For the "22LR accurizing on the cheap" thread, I considered Timney along with Kidd and Volquartsen but due to the "on the cheap" notion of the thread, went with $40 Volquartsen trigger kit which brought trigger pull down to 2.25 lbs that I am happy with.

    I liked my 10/22 Take Down, but after 26,000 round testing with different 10/22s, I found no matter how tight I got the barrel ring, any pressure on the forearm would deviate POI from POA which prompted me to buy 10/22 Collector #3 with fixed barrel for continued testing now approaching 34,000 rounds.
     
    desmobob likes this.
  23. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

    Joined:
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    27,965
    Location:
    Northwest Coast
    Aguila 40 gr CPRN (Aguila Prime) was used for 50 yard range test with following mods and parts replacement: (Will repeat range test with factory bolt and well rested hands for comparison)
    • 10/22 with factory barrel (Round count 4600, brushed twice with copper bore brush and 3 passes each) - Volquartsen trigger 2.25 lbs (Trigger round count 600) - Barrel free floated with plastic shim under V block - Rear of receiver better secured to stock with 1 strip of electrical tape - Mizugiwa one-piece scope mount - Tactical Solutions V block - Pike Arms red bolt buffer - T/CR22 factory pinned bolt
    10/22 Top row - Looks like Tactical Solutions V block better supporting the bottom of barrel with factory picatinny rail pushing on top of barrel improved anchoring of free-floated barrel to receiver. Vertical adjustment of scope was no longer maxed out (Bushnell Dusk & Dawn 6-18x50mm AO). First 5 shot group was slightly larger than 1/2" but excitement from seeing a promising first group produced a larger second group (I did help wife repair wire fencing on our acreage in the morning and cut up my hands from old frayed nylon rope and hands were stiff/sore ... I know, excuses). After some deep breathing, I better focused on trigger squeeze while tucking the rear of stock inserted into Lead Sled Solo firmer into shoulder and produced 1/2" group with shooter induced flyer to right. (Yay! :thumbup:) After some more deep breathing, produced even smaller group but with a shooter induced flyer to left (stiffness/soreness of shooting hand was taking it's toll but happy with the tight group from factory 10/22 barrel! :):thumbup:).

    Bottom row - Vertical adjustment made to scope to bring up POI but did not change horizontal adjustment (POI set intentionally left of circle to not shoot out POA). First group formed with holes touching each other. Second group made me go WTH? but took some time to relax hand (It was starting to cramp from overworking on the fence work). After some more deep breaths, produced 1/2" group with a shooter induced flyer to left. (And this with factory 10/22 barrel! :thumbup:). And last group produced same holes touching with shooter induced flyer to left. (Nice! :thumbup:)

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2022
  24. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    27,965
    Location:
    Northwest Coast
    Factory 10/22 bolt and pinned T/CR22 bolt groups were compared using Aguila 40 gr CPRN on Range Report #8 of "Accurizing 22LR on the cheap" thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/real-world-accurizing-22lr-on-the-cheap.898035/page-2#post-12180149

    Pinned T/CR22 bolt groups on top row produced smaller average groups with less flyer scatter. I am thinking about having my 10/22 bolt worked on and CPC provides this service for $50 - https://www.ct-precision.com/1022rework.html

    [​IMG]
     
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