Mythbusters: snipe through scope

[The Deer Hunter]

So i just watched the episode when they try to bust the myth of shooting another sniper through the scope and into their head. They tried it with some regular maybe, shotgun scopes(1.5-5x32ish) with the larger funnel like things on the end. Well it turns out, every shot just hit the front end then bounced out the cone part.
They also said this originated in WW2 because snipers were initially trained to shoot at the glint in the sunlight or whatever, making shooting an enemy sniper through the scope.

IIRC most of the war movies i have seen( I know, not to "bulletproof" proof) but most of the scopes seemed to be a straight tube; they dont have the cones on the end. So I'm thinking that it is a posibility that the reason the bullet didnt go through the scope entirely is because they werent in the direct center.

 

[thexrayboy]

It is possible that the round fired into the scope had such a ballistic arc as to make it strike the side of the scope and stop. No bullet actually travels on a perfectly straight path and the diameter of the scope is not very large. Also
its possible that the scope that Sgt. Carlos Hathcock says he fired through to kill the NVA sniper was of such a design as to give his round less obstacles to traverse. Many modern scopes have multiple lenses while the scope that the NV used may have had only 2. This could have been a factor also.

Just because the Mythbusters cannot duplicate something experimentally does not prove it cannot
happen in real life. The aphorism "truth is stranger than fiction" came from real world bizarre ocurrences.

 

[Rosstradamus]

Mythbusters is a comedy show. I'm surprised at how few people have figured this out. It seems obvious to me.

 

[Rabid Rabbit]

They did say it could be one of those 1 in a million chances, and thats what I think it is. Scope construction, arc of flight, bullet construction etc....

If it was too serious do you really think anybody would watch it???

Every now and then they do a myth that has everyday applications like the is it better to leave lights on or off to save energy? The breakeven time of 23 seconds for flouresecent tubes was a lot less than I expected.

 

[PinnedAndRecessed]

It seems I read this shot was made by Carlos Hathcock. Based on what I remember, that puts it in the Vietnam war. If that's true, there's no telling what kind of Chinese piece of junk the enemy sniper was using for a scope. The glass could have been, and probably was, nearly paper thin.

Also probably fixed power, tube like a ductile iron pipe which actually directed the bullet toward the shooter's eyeball.

You can't duplicate/predict what goes on once a bullet gets airborne.

 

[MAKOwner]

I was wondering if they were firing steel core 7.62x51 like Hathcock would I assume have been firing (or maybe 30-06, either way, steel core I would think). I'm kinda figuring they weren't. All I can think of is maybe the steel penetrator would make the difference. Then again maybe the handloaded rounds he was using weren't steel core, I don't know.

Of course the ole' "fire at the glint of their scope" probably just puts the shooter in a position to hit the other guy in the head, not actually right down the scope...

 

[230RN]

A miss is a hit.

Did it occur to anyone besides me that you don't have to actually hit the scope... but miss it by only an inch or two?

Hmmmm?

 

[SoCalShooter]

Just watched it also. It is possible I am sure, remember they were not using the same type of scope as they pointed out. And I am sure the quality of scope making and the materials may be slightly better, but it is truly a 1 in a billion shot.

 

[rustymaggot]

what sort of quality was the enemy scope in the story? i doubt it was as robust as the scopes they were shooting into. how many lenses? as pointed out, ir was probably a straight tube. are lenses on a smaller tube thinner than the hulking lenses on a bigger bell shaped one?

id like to know what sort of scope the enemy had in that story. was it a mosin nagant?

also, what round were they using in the show?

 

[Razor]

Here's the original thread when this episode first aired:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=237560

 

[BigFatKen]

1978. 280 yards. Standing deer.

.25-06 120gr I could only see the head. Bang and the deer falls over dead. No visible wound. I can only guess I hit it in the ear with no exit or un-noticeabe exit wound. No exit unlikely.

Any guesses?

 

[DMK]

1978. 280 yards. Standing deer.

.25-06 120gr I could only see the head. Bang and the deer falls over dead. No visible wound. I can only guess I hit it in the ear with no exit or un-noticeabe exit wound. No exit unlikely.

If you miss and the bullet is close enough, the shock wave will kill him.

Oh wait, that's .50 caliber, or was it the M1 tank?

 

[S.P.E.C.T.R.E.]

In Mythbusters defense, they shot the scope at POINT BLANK range and it still didn't go through. My only complaint is that they didn't use a scope that would have been similar to what the VC sniper would have used. Also, shooting a variety of scope types would have been useful.

 

[GEM]

Not having read the book, what was the evidence that the round went through the scope? Was the body recovered? Just asking.

 

[Firehand]

As I recall, Hathcock was firing a .30-06, firing a 172-grain match bullet.

 

[mljdeckard]

I read the book about 20 years ago, but he was counter-sniping an enemy sent down specifically to kill him. The guy was probably Russian trained, and the best thing they would have used at the time was a Nagant with a tube with external-adjusting mounts. Probably the exact same setup as you saw in "Enemy at the Gates". (Read "War of the Rats", by David L. Robbins. Better than the movie. As someone else said, probably fixed-power and much simpler than modern scopes.)

Everyone knows Mythbusters isn't science. It's fun to watch because these guys actually take the time to try the things the rest of us wish we could. In this case, they DID say that the scope they had might not be the same as the technology of the era. It's one thing to go to a bay area sporting goods store and buy a few entry-level Tascos, it's another thing entirely to find or replicate authentic era scopes to blow bullets through.

 

[hksw]

If it was too serious do you really think anybody would watch it???

IMO, yes, folks most definitely would. What's more, they would apply more credence to the results and cite it as a reliable source, more so than MB.


Concerning the light experiments, what was the outcome? My nieces and nephew came over just as they were gathering data and I didn't get to see the results. Does leaving your lights on use more or less energy than switching them off? What were the points of equilibrium for each type of lightsource?

 

[CajunBass]

Not having read the book, what was the evidence that the round went through the scope? Was the body recovered? Just asking.

I've got a copy of "Marine Sniper" here on my desk. According to the book, the rifle was a Mosin-Nagant with a "short 3.5 power scope."

From the book. (Page 183-184)

"Burke reached the body first. He looked at his sergeant and said, "Nobody is gonna believe this unless they see it. Look at that. You put that round straight through his scope."

Hathcock took the Russian made sniper rife from his partner and looked into the hollow tube of a telescopic sight that had had the glass blown from it as his bullet passed down it's length and entered the enemy snipers head through his eye."

Hathcock took the rifle with him, so he held it in his hands.
{further down 184)

"Hathcock put his name on the tag of the bloodstained, Mosin-Nagant sniper rifle and turned it in to the command headquarters. He was hoping to save it as a special souvenir, but he never saw the rifle again."

I never met the man, but have the great honor of calling his son (Carlos III) "friend." If Carlos Jr. said he did it, that's good enough for me.

 

[Blackfork]

Hathcox shot

Seems like the distance on the Hathcox scope shot was less than 200, maybe even under 100.
I certainly wouldn't like the chances of looking through a scope while someone shot the front ocular out with a 30-06. Even less on one of those short Soviet fixed power jobs.

 

[dfariswheel]

The difference between reality, (Hathcock) and show-biz (Mythbusters) is that Hathcock was using a Winchester Model 70 in 30.06 with a 28 inch barrel, and firing 173 grain, full metal jacketed Match bullet ammo.

The NVA sniper's scope was a WWII Russian design Model PU scope, which is MUCH shorter than modern design scopes, and which has a LOT less glass in it and wasn't built nearly as strong as even cheap modern scopes.

 

[bogie]

He probably hit it just right too... Even glass can deflect a round quite a bit. Overall, I believe it, but it was a miracle shot.

They also did a thing shooting various items. The debunked the zippo as lifesafer bit, but that was head on - with a glancing shot, I think it could have deflected enough, and the owner wouldn't really get all that picky.

 

[pdowg881]

One of the things I don't like about Mythbusters is they are sometimes quick to call a myth busted without trying all the variables or considering why the experiment is giving them certain results. Maybe they will revisit this one like episodes where they read peoples comments on their websites and choose to redo some.

 

[Gewehr98]

Scopes, nothing.

Somewhere (U.K. Imperial War Museum?) There's a SMLE with a bullet lodged partway down the barrel, and it displays the damage done when the owner fired his own chambered round into that obstruction. The bullet that blocked the bore was one fired from a German Mauser from the other side of No Man's Land.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

I saw it and besides the scope difference I don't think they spent anytime thinking about the rifle or bullet.

It looked like a 5.56 rifle or maybe a .308 and I really doubt that is was the same type of bullet that Hathcock used.

I'm still surprised that a scope would stop either. However, this tv version of ballistics study and "science" leaves much to be desired.

 

[wooderson]

They dealer they bought it from told the crew that they were buying an exact replica of Hathcock's rifle (unless he was using non-standard equipment).

I don't know when the episode was filmed, but isn't there a scout sniper org that teamed with someone to offer a civilian M40 or M40A1?