cuchulainn
Member
See my responses to odysseus in Post #98.
Spanish defacto US second official language
- Thread starter Tokugawa
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longeyes
member
Providing public education does not imply providing it in the original language of the child.
Sindawe
Member
Daq taH joq ghobe' Daq taH
Πώς μπορώ να σας βοηθήσω
or perhaps:
我怎麼可以幫助您?
It is the expectation that those of us who were raised here, or have worked to become American, will adjust to fit the language needs and comfort of the newly arrived from certain countries, and increasingly the native born offspring of such.
Really? How do you feel about the idea of walking into a business and being greeted with:
Πώς μπορώ να σας βοηθήσω
or perhaps:
我怎麼可以幫助您?
The 13th Amendment says:
“
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
“
I think you’re referring to Article 4, Section 2 which says: “The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.”
Please note the operative word. It is citizens. Illegal immigrants are by definition not citizens.
cuchulainn
Member
OFFICIALLY HIJACKED
If all the Spanish speaking people were here legally, you all still would have the same concerns about balkanization and separate societies. Thus, your concerns about language are not dependent on illegal immigration.
If all the illegal immigrants spoke only English, you (and I) still would have big problems with their illegal status. Thus, our concerns about illegal immigration are not dependent on language.
Thus the two topics -- although related -- are not the same.
OFFICIALLY HIJACKED
They are are related subjects. They are not the same subject.
If all the Spanish speaking people were here legally, you all still would have the same concerns about balkanization and separate societies. Thus, your concerns about language are not dependent on illegal immigration.
If all the illegal immigrants spoke only English, you (and I) still would have big problems with their illegal status. Thus, our concerns about illegal immigration are not dependent on language.
Thus the two topics -- although related -- are not the same.
You're the one who can't seem to get over it. We haven't talked about it in pages. You disagree with the example. We've explained it multiple times. You still disagree. Move on.
It's your car. You can throw out whomever you want and for whatever reason.
Good for you. I hope, however, that if you thought an English-speaking fellow was an illegal that you'd give him the same treatment.
OFFICIALLY HIJACKED
cuchulainn
Member
Please note that in my comment you are referring to -- in Post #98 -- not only did I use the word citizen, I emphasized it with an underline.
Odysseus and I were speaking about legal citizens who happen not to want to speak English.
I agree that illegals shouldn't get to go to public school -- including those illegals who speak only English.
Seminole
Member
2nd Ammendment:
If I came in to buy a car from you would you refuse to sell it to me if I didn't have a license? Would you even ask? Since when does one have to have a license in order to buy a car? And for what purpose did you ask his Social Security number--of what possible relevance is it to whether he can buy a car? Are you aware that there are U.S. citizens who don't have S.S. numbers?
I know illegal immigrants who have legal driver's licenses. I know legal immigrants who don't have licenses. I know some in both groups who have bought cars. The money they used to buy the cars was earned by the sweat of their brow and was just as green as mine.
Look, you don't what to do business with certain people, I think that's your right --they'll go give someone else their hard-earned money. That's your loss, not theirs. Just please don't ever complain about how bad business has become.
If I came in to buy a car from you would you refuse to sell it to me if I didn't have a license? Would you even ask? Since when does one have to have a license in order to buy a car? And for what purpose did you ask his Social Security number--of what possible relevance is it to whether he can buy a car? Are you aware that there are U.S. citizens who don't have S.S. numbers?
I know illegal immigrants who have legal driver's licenses. I know legal immigrants who don't have licenses. I know some in both groups who have bought cars. The money they used to buy the cars was earned by the sweat of their brow and was just as green as mine.
Look, you don't what to do business with certain people, I think that's your right --they'll go give someone else their hard-earned money. That's your loss, not theirs. Just please don't ever complain about how bad business has become.
odysseus
Member
Actually I find that very debatable. Teaching only in English is not a violation of that clause. Not allowing them the teaching would be. I would hope you know this, but most public schools in areas effected by large immigrant populations offer classes for people to learn english at tax payers expense.
I also believe there are government facilities and community groups that help non english speaking people fill out basic tax forms.
I think your rigidity in your point is not allowing you to see the whole picture.
Seminole:
I agreed with much of what you had to say here. However I think your point does not consider the WIDE variety of languages here in the US and seems to be restricted to Spanish. The discussion again is not businesses, but what our Government is paying for.
Seminole
Member
Fine with me! My guess is that as soon as they realize I don't speak Russian (or Urdu, or whatever), they'll switch to a language we both can deal in because they want to make money. If there aren't enough businesses around that can deal in English, Spanish, Italian, German, French, Portugese, or Guaraní, then I guess I'll just have to learn whatever language makes my life easier. People learn new skills (including languages) all the time. Economics is a wonderfully efficient incentive.
El Tejon
Member
Riley, as a descendant of an illegal British immigrant, I prefer blood pudding.
In Heaven, the English are the police.
In Hell, they are the cooks.
In Heaven, the English are the police.
In Hell, they are the cooks.
Seminole
Member
I don't think that anybody should go to "public" (that is, government) school.
And that's exactly the point. Private business can deal in whatever language it wants. Government has no business subsidizing every foreign language that comes along. It's a disservice to English speaking Americans as well as to foreign speaking nationals.
Seminole
Member
El Tejon said:
Now why'd you have to go and say something so disgusting in an otherwise polite conversation?
cuchulainn
Member
Yeah, I understand the debatableness. The point is that if they are citizens -- but cannot speak English -- you are denying them an education by offering it only in English.
Frankly -- personally -- I'd have no problem with that solution.
I'll note, however, that some of the other English-only people probably would rant against the government offering such "accomodations." Yeah, I know that's not you -- but see, there is a reasonable middleground here. You and I seem to be approaching that, while leaving others behind.
OTOH, speaking of accomodations, if your accomodation of government facilities to help with the forms is OK, why not the accomodation of non-English forms? Which costs the tax payer more? My preference would be for the cheaper, whichever it is.
I'm not as rigid about it as you might think. I'm simply pointing out the legal issues.
cuchulainn
Member
Irish, actually. There are tons of illegal Irish in the big east coast cities. No, they aren't the main illegal immigration problem -- by far -- but they do exist in large numbers. Their kids shouldn't get to go to public schools.
There's also a goodly number of illegals from other former English colonies in Africa and the Carribean.
I agree, actually. But as long as we've got them, certain rules apply.
Seminole
Member
One cannot subsidize a language. A subsidy is a grant or gift of money. It is impossible to give money to a language.
The government is trying to communicate to people. It is trying to get them to do what it wants. In this it is just the same as a private business, only with the power to kill you if you don't do what it wants. The problem is that if it just goes about killing people willy-nilly, the peasants will rise in revolt. So, if the government really wants to communicate with people, it will do so in whatever language is required in order to get them to understand. It will do so because it is in its own best interest, just as it is in the car dealership's best interest to sell them a car.
cuchulainn
Member
I take that to mean you have no problem -- whatsoever -- with all those language services being offered to legal immigrants?
You have no problem with Spanish-only education for legal immigrants.
You have no problem with multiple languages on voting forms -- provided the person using it can prove citizenship.
Etc.
cuchulainn
Member
There are tens-of-thousands (if not hundreds-of-thousands) of legal immigrants. They have varying degrees of English proficiency.
Do you oppose language services for those people?
Edit: Actually, the number of legal immigrants number in the tens-of-millions. Whew, was my estimate way off!
http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/statistics/publications/EstimateLPR2003.pdf
Do you oppose language services for those people?
Edit: Actually, the number of legal immigrants number in the tens-of-millions. Whew, was my estimate way off!
http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/statistics/publications/EstimateLPR2003.pdf
I will cover some points:
"Germans learning English quickly" - They learned English DAMN quickly because the English speakers would not let them get away with turning the country "German". They didn't like the Germans and told them at every opportunity (see what Ben Franklin thought of them). The Germans struggled on for a hundred years but kept being beaten by the English speakers who DIDN'T LIKE THEM SPEAKING GERMAN (and I agree with them, horrible language, and I speak it).
There was an effort in 1795 to print the laws in German as well as English. This was defeated because the English-speakers didn't like their country being hijacked by Germans. And screw the "convenience" of the Germans.
There was a suggestion around that time that the US should speak Hebrew or French or Greek (the language of religion, diplomacy and democracy respectively). Roger Sherman suggested we speak English and the English be forced to speak Greek.
What you can see from that is that language is perceived as a great UNITER! The Founders understood this.
The Spanish language is now being used to DIVIDE the country.
The reasons are many, but the reality is unavoidable.
I understand that "nice" folk think that foreign languages are "amusing" and "cultural", but they are confused and distracted by their misguided belief in their own worldliness.
The rule of thumb is that if you aren't multicultural then you are a rube, racist or redneck, or maybe all three. And if you are any one of those then you can be addressed in that tone of amused disdain adopted by readers of the New York Times and Boston Globe.
Don't patronize me.
I know that the unity of language is essential.
That unity was understood by the founders and acted upon.
Today we face the same issues as they faced, but we can either not be honest, or have been persuaded that since we are now in a "better world" we must be more embracing and understanding.
No. Learn English.
The rules, driver's test, laws, rights, constitution, tax return should be in English. That's it. Otherwise employ a translator.
Finally, the reason ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION is important in this context is that in order to become a citizen you must demonstrate a knowledge of the language.
Illegals don't need that.
If you are here 5 years on a green card to become a citizen LEARN ENGLISH.
Speak Spanish or whatever the heck you want in your home/neighborhood/gang meeting whatever, but don't insult the country that gave you a better home and more opportunities by refusing to become a full member of that country and sneering at those people who live here already.
If you don't think so then New York City would be fine for you; you can take the driver's test there in literally any language you want. Enjoy.
G (bigot, racist, xenophobe, knuckledraggin' redneck)
"Germans learning English quickly" - They learned English DAMN quickly because the English speakers would not let them get away with turning the country "German". They didn't like the Germans and told them at every opportunity (see what Ben Franklin thought of them). The Germans struggled on for a hundred years but kept being beaten by the English speakers who DIDN'T LIKE THEM SPEAKING GERMAN (and I agree with them, horrible language, and I speak it).
There was an effort in 1795 to print the laws in German as well as English. This was defeated because the English-speakers didn't like their country being hijacked by Germans. And screw the "convenience" of the Germans.
There was a suggestion around that time that the US should speak Hebrew or French or Greek (the language of religion, diplomacy and democracy respectively). Roger Sherman suggested we speak English and the English be forced to speak Greek.
What you can see from that is that language is perceived as a great UNITER! The Founders understood this.
The Spanish language is now being used to DIVIDE the country.
The reasons are many, but the reality is unavoidable.
I understand that "nice" folk think that foreign languages are "amusing" and "cultural", but they are confused and distracted by their misguided belief in their own worldliness.
The rule of thumb is that if you aren't multicultural then you are a rube, racist or redneck, or maybe all three. And if you are any one of those then you can be addressed in that tone of amused disdain adopted by readers of the New York Times and Boston Globe.
Don't patronize me.
I know that the unity of language is essential.
That unity was understood by the founders and acted upon.
Today we face the same issues as they faced, but we can either not be honest, or have been persuaded that since we are now in a "better world" we must be more embracing and understanding.
No. Learn English.
The rules, driver's test, laws, rights, constitution, tax return should be in English. That's it. Otherwise employ a translator.
Finally, the reason ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION is important in this context is that in order to become a citizen you must demonstrate a knowledge of the language.
Illegals don't need that.
If you are here 5 years on a green card to become a citizen LEARN ENGLISH.
Speak Spanish or whatever the heck you want in your home/neighborhood/gang meeting whatever, but don't insult the country that gave you a better home and more opportunities by refusing to become a full member of that country and sneering at those people who live here already.
If you don't think so then New York City would be fine for you; you can take the driver's test there in literally any language you want. Enjoy.
G (bigot, racist, xenophobe, knuckledraggin' redneck)
According to you, any US citizen speaking any language other than English must be accommodated.
Ridiculous. It would be impossible to accommodate all the hundreds of languages spoken by the citizens of this country. That's why there is one common language - English. If you live in France, you need to speak French, in Germany, German, in Mexico, Spanish. And that's right and good. You cannot cater to everyone's native language, it's an impossible task that would bring any country to a screeching halt.
Marshall
Member
Good for you!Cuchulainn- If that’s true (and I don’t accept your assertion that it is), the condition exists because government provides ‘language services’. Remove that accomodation, and they will quickly learn English. It’s axiomatic-what you subsidize, you get more of. Remember, El Tejon already told us
People will learn English if/when they must.
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