See my post above re: the purpose of such signs. Keeping our robbers is not part of it.
NC: "No Guns" BBQ Eatery gets Robbed
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See my post above re: the purpose of such signs. Keeping our robbers is not part of it.
Onward Allusion
Member
No. The point of the sign is to hopefully prevent any guns to be present on the businesses' property. The point proven is that criminals do not give a crap about no-gun signs.
Onward Allusion
Member
Um, I dunno about that. How many bad guys would go, "Hey Frank <my apologies to those named Frank>, they got a "no guns" sign, let's rob 'em" Or "Hey, they don't have a "no gun" sign, we're probably gonna get shot if we rob 'em."
The truth is that the overwhelming majority of robbers (note ROBBERS - not criminals in general) are not smart cookies and don't put much consideration into signs. Trust me when I say this.
If they were smart, they would not be robbing places of business or even banks. If these guys were smart, they would go the white collar route and rip off millions from the sheep without having to resort to any type of violence.
Joe Demko
Member
Limiting liability, possibly. A political statement, perhaps.
As noted by Double Naught Spy, no sane business owner believes signs prevent crimes. No irony to be seen here.
As noted by Double Naught Spy, no sane business owner believes signs prevent crimes. No irony to be seen here.
RustyShackelford
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Armed robbery, 2 times....
A small business/mini mart in a high-crime/high incident rate area of my city had 2 recent armed robbery events.
The first occurred about 3 weeks ago. 2 stick up thugs pulled guns & stole $$$ from a immigrant shop keeper.
About 4 days ago, the exact same business was hit again.
This time, the business owner/manager drew a handgun & cranked off a few rounds at the robbers.
None of the thugs were shot but I think they no longer have a "easy lick" .
This incident of course got no news coverage from major networks.
A small business/mini mart in a high-crime/high incident rate area of my city had 2 recent armed robbery events.
The first occurred about 3 weeks ago. 2 stick up thugs pulled guns & stole $$$ from a immigrant shop keeper.
About 4 days ago, the exact same business was hit again.
This time, the business owner/manager drew a handgun & cranked off a few rounds at the robbers.
None of the thugs were shot but I think they no longer have a "easy lick"
.This incident of course got no news coverage from major networks.
Old Dog
Member
I'm afraid I have to side with Onward Allusion on this one. Robbers are typically the most stupid type of thieves ... we caught a bank robber up here a few years back ... when he pulled out his note from a pocket, he left at the scene another piece of paper that happened to be his final inmate pay stub (complete with his name and DOC #) ... seems he'd just been released from the state penitentiary a few days prior (yes, we still have a state pen up here). Signage is of no deterrent or invitational value to the garden variety criminal. I take particular delight in the two clowns who ignored several security company signs around one property's perimeter and were wrapped up forthwith upon entry when the alarms sounded ...
My state is considered the original shall-issue state, yet we still, on a regular basis, have criminals shot by citizens or otherwise caught because they ignored the strong possibility that armed citizens would be co-located at the scene of their intended crime.
To believe that a "no guns" sign on a business is an invitation to a crook (or even an active shooter) is, I believe, a fallacious notion.
My state is considered the original shall-issue state, yet we still, on a regular basis, have criminals shot by citizens or otherwise caught because they ignored the strong possibility that armed citizens would be co-located at the scene of their intended crime.
To believe that a "no guns" sign on a business is an invitation to a crook (or even an active shooter) is, I believe, a fallacious notion.
CoalTrain49
Member
^^^ Yes sir, you have to behave yourself in WA.
Lots of folks have been carrying concealed for a long time.
It's a pretty civilized place but thugs do get shot from time to time.
Lots of folks have been carrying concealed for a long time.
It's a pretty civilized place but thugs do get shot from time to time.
we are not amused
Member
Then what is the purpose of the sign?
Ensure a safe working environment for robbers perhaps?
we are not amused
Member
Ahhh! My definition of civilized!
Joe Demko
Member
The sign's purpose has already been explained a couple times.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
If the criminal is calculating probabilities, then he knows that sign or not, that getting shot by a patron during the robbery is not statistically significant as it happens so infrequently.
Let's see, NC has bout 9.75 million people and about 228k permit holders, or about 2.3% of the population. Using national data that indicates approximately 70% of the population is 21 or over (able to concealed carry), then about 3.3% of the adult population of 6,825,000 has permits.
We know that at any given time, the vast majority of permit holders are not actually carrying guns, only about 20% or so, and that means that less than 1 in 100 adults are apt to be carrying in NC. Of those <1%, a goodly number will just be good witnesses or otherwise to scared to intervene.
So the odds are still very good that sign or no sign, there isn't likely to be any customers in the shop who are concealed carrying and who are apt to intervene, LOL.
Of course, the robbers aren't apt to know this or do the breakdown of the numbers. All they know is that they (probably) don't know anybody who has been stopped by an armed customer during a robber of a business, and so feel confident that it isn't likely to happen to them either.
You guys can argue and spout all you want.
This is ironic.
Businesses put up signs for a variety of reasons and unless you know the owners personally then you are just guessing at why the sign is in the window. Since I rarely go to NC and probably would never find this place even if they had a big road sign out front that welcomed CCW holders I could care less why they put up the sign. It's their business and they can do what they want. WHY the sign is in the window is not relevant. The fact that the sign exists and that they were robbed at gunpoint is ironic. If the sign was put up to prevent robbery then it didn't work too well. If it was put up to prevent employees and or customers from going all Dodge City (that's real likely as it happens so frequently) then apparently it has done it's job as I have seen nothing on the news about a gunfight at the NC BBQ joint. If it was put up to mollify some group or make a political statement then I hope they go out of business soon.
This is ironic.
Businesses put up signs for a variety of reasons and unless you know the owners personally then you are just guessing at why the sign is in the window. Since I rarely go to NC and probably would never find this place even if they had a big road sign out front that welcomed CCW holders I could care less why they put up the sign. It's their business and they can do what they want. WHY the sign is in the window is not relevant. The fact that the sign exists and that they were robbed at gunpoint is ironic. If the sign was put up to prevent robbery then it didn't work too well. If it was put up to prevent employees and or customers from going all Dodge City (that's real likely as it happens so frequently) then apparently it has done it's job as I have seen nothing on the news about a gunfight at the NC BBQ joint. If it was put up to mollify some group or make a political statement then I hope they go out of business soon.
The point of the sign is either one of two reasons. 1) it's a gun free zone by law and the sign is a friendly reminder. Or. 2). The establishment is anti gun and doesn't want any law abiding citizens carrying because In their opinion. Only law enforcement is competent with guns and us citizens should just hand the cash over or die in the freezer. That's why I don't patronize buisness that Arnet legal gun free zones but post any ways.
Panzerschwein
member
Perhaps, not so surprising?
Maybe it amounts to nothing, but having a "no guns" sign surely wouldn't help in scaring off attackers!!!!!!!
Maybe it amounts to nothing, but having a "no guns" sign surely wouldn't help in scaring off attackers!!!!!!!
larryh1108
Member
would a sign posted that said "CCW owners are welcome" deter criminals? I think it would give them good reason to find a different place to rob.
Beach Nut
Member
My post was not meant to be taken too seriously although it is true that a majority
of restaurants in our state that serve BBQ and down home cooking are owned
by and cater to customers that are strong supporters of the Second Amendment.
I'm just joking a little bit here. The Pit is in one of the more Liberal areas of
North Carolina and it is not surprising that they would have a no guns sign,
to tell the truth. I have and will not set foot in there as long as CCW permit
owners and their firearms are not allowed in there.
we are not amused
Member
And the explanations are still stupid and silly! If they consider their own help so dangerous that they must disarm them, I don't want to eat there without being armed, the same goes for their clientele. If they're so dangerous, that they must be disarmed, I'm certainly not going to eat there, even if they allowed me to be armed!
And I am kind of shocked by the number of people on this site that seem to believe that people would engage in gun fights over a joggled elbow or having to stand in line! Or that a no-gun sign would keep the type of people who would engage in such behavior in the first place, from carrying a gun.:banghead:
As for the geniuses who claim criminals never consider whether or not the target can fight back, why do they target women and old people, instead of football linebackers?
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
So you think it is stupid because you don't like it. Got it.
A lot of businesses have "no guns" signs up for patrons but the operators of the business themselves are armed. If you don't want to eat there, that is great. They don't want you with a gun anyway. So y'all can go your own way and be happy.
I don't think anyone here has suggested that the sign works against people who would ignore it. Businesses that post such signs know this. Again, the signs are not expected to stop bad guys just like speed limit signs don't stop speeders. If businesses thought signs would stop bad guys, they would put up NO ROBBERY signs.
Well the geniuses have looked at the stats, news articles, etc. and see where such signage makes no discernible difference in crime, just like CCW doesn't change crime rates.
The difference in your example is that when it comes to concealed carry, the criminals don't know who is armed and who isn't, but do know that the HUGE majority are not and are not likely to be armed. If they can't see the gun, they don't see a threat. Women, old people, etc. get targeted because they are perceived to not be a threat. Funny how CCW doesn't protect them any better from getting attacked initially either.
PistolPete45
Member
If the guys get caught will the charge be armed robbery and carrying a firearm into a posted gun free zone .. or just assault and robbery parole and a new obama phone ??
we are not amused
Member
First, I am happy that you think the no gun signs are a good idea. Perhaps we ought to just go ahead and ban guns every where.
And, again, why put up a sign that they know is going to be ignored by the people who they don't want to carry guns?
And actually, the geniuses don't agree that CCW doesn't affect the crime rate. I suggest you read John Lott's "More Guns, Less Crime".
Are you suggesting that CCW is ineffective? If so, why do so many people want to do it?
And why should a "no gun" sign make anyone safer? Since the bad guys ignore it, it just makes it a free zone for bad guys. There have been many, many post on this site which have detail instances of customers stopping robberies in places of business.
I fail to see the effectiveness of such signs, or any reason for them other than anti-gun hysteria, which many on this site seem to agree with.
I think there is a certain amount "just desert" or comeuppance in a store with a "NO GUN" sign being robbed. It just goes to show that there is justice in the world.
we are not amused
Member
Most likely the latter.
Carl N. Brown
Member
Business that bar permit holders from carrying in their establishments very often also have a no guns in cars in their parking lot rule also. And I think that transferring a gun from a holster to the lockbox in the trunk (and back on return) is more likely to upset the sensitive even if there is no bar to guns in the parking lot. And such transfer is more likely to result in AD or ND than leaving the gun in its holster.
I have decided not patronize such businesses especially if I am carrying. Sometimes I decide not to patronize them at all.
Obviously armed robbers have no compunction about entering totally gun free zones while armed. If that's the kind of patrons such businesses want, and not folks like me, hope they are happy. There are places w/o signage. (There are signs "coded" to bar illegal weapons, not legally carried weapons, so it pays to ask some business owners.)
I have decided not patronize such businesses especially if I am carrying. Sometimes I decide not to patronize them at all.
Obviously armed robbers have no compunction about entering totally gun free zones while armed. If that's the kind of patrons such businesses want, and not folks like me, hope they are happy. There are places w/o signage. (There are signs "coded" to bar illegal weapons, not legally carried weapons, so it pays to ask some business owners.)
RustyShackelford
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The illusion of compliance....
A common misconception IMO, is that if employees or customers are compliant then the armed thugs or robbers won't hurt/shoot them.
This plan or mindset is wrong. You can not predict or expect any kind of response in a critical incident/armed robbery. In my metro area, I've seen recent media reports of; a mini mart clerk being choked/beaten after complying, armed robbers who shot at employees after taking the $$$, robbers who locked up the staff in a freezer even when they offered no resistance.
Now, I don't advocate any min wage service worker or low end bank employee get any; tombstone courage or act like LT John McClaine(Die Hard) but I get annoyed when media "experts" or LE officials say that crooks just want $ or won't hurt you if you comply.
Rusty
A common misconception IMO, is that if employees or customers are compliant then the armed thugs or robbers won't hurt/shoot them.
This plan or mindset is wrong. You can not predict or expect any kind of response in a critical incident/armed robbery. In my metro area, I've seen recent media reports of; a mini mart clerk being choked/beaten after complying, armed robbers who shot at employees after taking the $$$, robbers who locked up the staff in a freezer even when they offered no resistance.
Now, I don't advocate any min wage service worker or low end bank employee get any; tombstone courage or act like LT John McClaine(Die Hard) but I get annoyed when media "experts" or LE officials say that crooks just want $ or won't hurt you if you comply.
Rusty
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