ND- I am now 'that guy'

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Why would you not want to train like you would fight?
One would obviously like to train like he would fight, the problem is that it's not always practical or safe to do so.

In many cases, training is done in such a manner as to emphasize safety, even if it comes at the expense of speed or convenience. For some reason, this is one aspect where those principles haven't been applied.
That is what training is for. Doing something different in training defeats the purpose of training.
The point is that training is to help you to do things right. Doing things right encompasses the additional aspect of doing things safely.
I've never been to a range that ONLY had berms as the safety for bullet impacts. They all had substantial real estate behind them.
I've been to several. In fact, nearly all the ranges in this area are that way. But even if it weren't the case, you still don't do things at a range that might launch bullets over the berm unless you absolutely know that there's no one downrange past the berm within the area where the bullet can come down.
If you do your reload in a linear fashion where it never leaves the impact zone of the target, then I'd like to see it.
In finding those pictures, I did come across a few who were reloading WITHOUT pointing their guns at the sky. It can be done and is done.

I'm honestly not sure why people (including some well-respected trainers) accept this lapse of muzzle control in the name of expedience. It's actually very puzzling. It's even more puzzling why so many people do it without ever apparently thinking about it and others even try to justify it after the problem is pointed out.
You aren't going to find many if anybody that has a dangerous occupation that would agree with this statement.
There are certainly people out there willing to take risks. It is to be hoped that they are doing so because it is necessary to do so and not just because it's easier to do something that violates safety rules as opposed to doing it correctly.

Come on folks, we're talking about an incident involving an unintentional discharge in the process of a reload. How can it possibly make sense to argue that muzzle control during a reload isn't really important?
 
There are certainly people out there willing to take risks. It is to be hoped that they are doing so because it is necessary to do so and not just because it's easier to do something that violates safety rules as opposed to doing it correctly.

As has also been pointed out what not everyone agrees with what you think is correct. Your statement is also a bit ironic. By not doing something that as you say "easier" because it jeopardizes safety can quite potentially have the opposite effect. When you are in a bad situation are you really going to do something that is less effective and slower just because of "safety", and in this case, pointing a firearm at something other then your target, when the result is you get shot? What type of safety is that?

You clearly (even though you said otherwise) don't train like you would fight, or even agree with that.
 
I had one when I was a relatively new shooter at my local range. To this day I have no idea what happened. I was in my line fire off a few, was still holding the pistol when all of a sudden it went bang! Startled me pretty bad. Bad enough I packed up went home for the day. The worst part the round hit the roof because of uncontrolled muzzle rise. :eek: Just glad it was facing down range at all times. I have my guns facing downrange anytime they are loaded even if I just set one on the bench to fire another one. Not going to take chances with another ND.
 
This is NOT an "admin reload." That term itself doesn't even exist. (Administrative LOAD)

You can't do an Admin Load if you just fired two rounds. You can do a Tactical RE-load, however.

Again, a properly executed Admin Load involves ZERO rounds fired, before or after seating the mag.

wrong. The term does exist. It's commonly used and we are talking about it, therefore it exists.

When you seat the mag, you will EVENTUALLY fire the round, aren't you? otherwise why would ANYONE reload?

People do use this term to mean a lot of things, but such thing does exist. It usually means exchanging the partially spent mag with a full mag, when not under stress. People sometimes do it while holstered, while not holstered.

The OP may have done an admin reload, maybe waited some time (few seconds, minutes, whatever) and then shot. Just because he shot, it doens't mean that it was not an "admin" reload, as we EVENTUALLY shoot again, don't we? :neener:
 
Rule #2 gets broken every day. You can't have your gun out without it being pointed at someone. This shouldn't be about where to point your gun when reloading, it's about KEEPING YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER.

Even in your holster you probally sweep a dozen people a day. Troops with rifles are constantly sweeping everything in sight. Ever been to a gun show? You had 10 thousand guns pointed at you there. How can you reload while keeping your pistol on target if your target is toast flat the ground 30y away?

Being super anal about keeping your pistol on target during a reload is completely stupid. It deosn't allow you to index, and it's slow. If your gun can't be reloaded safely, then scrap it and get a better one. If you can't get the hang of reloading safely, then guns aren't for you.

If you want, reload normally, then hit the slide lock lever or overhand rack the gun while it's pointed down range. That's the best compromise I can think of.
 
wrong. The term does exist. It's commonly used and we are talking about it, therefore it exists.

"Misunderestimated" doesn't exist, either, except by accident. It's the same with "admin reload." People that know what they're talking about don't use this accidentally contrived, bastardized term.

When you seat the mag, you will EVENTUALLY fire the round, aren't you? otherwise why would ANYONE reload?

Baseless, foolish "argument." The OP just fired 2 rds, just before doing his TACTICAL reload (note proper term). Firing those shots made it impossible for an"Administrative LOAD," (again, note proper term) to be performed, since it involves no shots being fired, before or after the magazine being seated.

Attempting to justify a convoluted term because he might fire shots hours, days or weeks or months later from that reload is asinine, as is ignoring the shots fired immediately preceding the action.
 
ND- I am now 'that guy'
Was training yesterday with a class doing admin reloads and had a nd.
Draw - 2 shots - admin - two shots - I was obeying the other rules so the round hit the berm without harming anyone. I am devastated - *** - it was the last drill of the day and I was fumbling with my M&Pc, old and new mags, and and had my finger in the trigger guard. Totally f'ing oblivious - apparently do to the outcome.

Is this a lucky break telling me I'm not capable of handling things that go bang.

Kenshomi

1st off welcome to THR.com as you are a newer poster. You came on here because you wanted to gain more knowledge on your incident, glean from others, and learn from it. Good for you. This should really show you, that you're an OK shooter, you just didn't flake it off as something as whimsical as running a stoplight on pink. You obeyed rule # 1 of firearms...keep barrel in safe direction. Excellent!
Sir what I suggest is putting it behind you, do you practice at your house with dummy rounds? (That's action proving rounds for all you Shooting Bible/dictionary types). You can practice pratice practice, learning by repetition. For free! I also suggest you do a detail cleaning your weapon as a final act on this singular event...."when this weapon is cleaned this event is behind me" kinda thinking. Bury it. Remember? Yes Relive? NEVER. Move on.

You show and exhibit the the #1 rule of any range class that I've been in, PROPER ATTITUDE towards the learning experience. Wouldn't bother me a bit to shoot the next lane beside you at the club!

Good luck!
 
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A reload at the range with all the time in the world. "Admin reload."

But if you've allready been shooting at the range. I go straight to a quick combat speed reload or tac reload before reholstering. That way those skills stay in tune.

If I don't have holsters on, I toss a mag in my pocket, even if it's empty, and tac reload that before setting my gun down. Just a repitition thing, it helps. Eventually reloading becomes a thoughtless automatic process, a habit that could be a good thing under pressure. Your either shooting or reloading, allmost allways.
 
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"Misunderestimated" doesn't exist, either, except by accident. It's the same with "admin reload." People that know what they're talking about don't use this accidentally contrived, bastardized term.


Baseless, foolish "argument." The OP just fired 2 rds, just before doing his TACTICAL reload (note proper term). Firing those shots made it impossible for an"Administrative LOAD," (again, note proper term) to be performed, since it involves no shots being fired, before or after the magazine being seated.

Attempting to justify a convoluted term because he might fire shots hours, days or weeks or months later from that reload is asinine, as is ignoring the shots fired immediately preceding the action.

I am sorry to say this, but you sound foolish. Because you don't agree with something doesn't mean that the said something doesn't exist. I just did a search, and found dozens of places, people, and examples of people doing and performing "admin reloads". The reason you sound foolish is because not only are you arguing semantics, but you take it a step further and claim it doesn't even exist.

Travis Haley formerly of Magpul Dynamics, former Blackwater operator, and former Force Recon Marine demonstrating what even he calls an Admin reload
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUnLceBAw-U

Chris Costa also from Magpul doing the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ob5Gk0Hs4U

You said and I quote "People that know what they're talking about don't use this accidentally contrived, bastardized term." So are you saying they don't know what they are talking about? I know their credentials, so I imagine yours are even superior.

There are also numerous other examples. Some like to use this term for 'in the holster' reloads. Others use it for what was shown above. Either way, the common thing is, that the term AND TECHNIQUE do exist. Whether you agree with it or not does not prove or justify an argument that it doesn't exist.
 
As has also been pointed out what not everyone agrees with what you think is correct.
Correct/Incorrect is not what I'm discussing. What I'm pointing out is that it's not ok to violate a gun safety rule to make something a little easier or quicker.
You clearly (even though you said otherwise) don't train like you would fight, or even agree with that.
The "train like you fight" mantra is a wise principle as long as it's not taken to extremes. In other words, it's not a carte blanche to break gun safety rules simply because we know they will be broken in real gunfights.

It's almost unheard of for people to train like they fight in every respect. For example, people use plastic guns for disarming practice or for practicing close quarter techniques instead of loaded guns, or even instead of unloaded guns. They do that to avoid breaking the muzzle control rule. There are other examples of how intentionally make training different from actual shootings. A very obvious example is that no one tries to find training classes that include return fire at them while they're training so they can get used to shooting while receiving incoming fire. A more subtle example is that it's very rare for shooters to practice without hearing or eye protection in the name of training like they will fight.
By not doing something that as you say "easier" because it jeopardizes safety can quite potentially have the opposite effect. When you are in a bad situation are you really going to do something that is less effective and slower just because of "safety", and in this case, pointing a firearm at something other then your target, when the result is you get shot? What type of safety is that?
The argument cuts both ways. You're training at the range to become effective at preserving innocent life. How can it possibly make sense to train in such a way that it endangers innocent lives by intentionally creating the potential for rounds to go over the berm and leave the range?

And from a practical perspective while most of us train often, we'll never actually be in a gunfight. So it makes even less sense to frequently do something that's against the rules of gun safety in the name of saving a few fractions of a second during an event that the vast majority of us will never even have to encounter. Most of us will never be in a shooting, let alone have to reload "on the clock" in the process.

To make the situation even clearer, we should remember that many people, even experts, carry revolvers for self-defense even though revolver reloads are much slower than autopistol reloads. So even if it takes me a fraction of a second more to reload my autopistol because I refrain from pointing my gun at the sky while I'm reloading, I'll still be done and shooting again before even a very good revolver shooter would have his gun back up and running.

The bottom line is that people use the technique because it's a little easier than following the safety rule and because, for whatever reason, it's common for people to turn a blind eye to that particular safety violation.

I suspect a large part of it is the widely held but severely flawed assumptoin that descending bullets will be essentially harmless.
You can't have your gun out without it being pointed at someone.
Sure you can. That's what shooting ranges are for. The berm stops the bullets so you can know that when you're pointing at the berm/backstop that you're not pointing the gun at anyone.

Besides, the fact that a rule is commonly broken doesn't make it acceptable to do so. The finger/trigger rule is also commonly broken, but clearly you don't believe that makes it acceptable to ignore that rule even if it makes some particular aspect of training easier or quicker.
Even in your holster you probally sweep a dozen people a day.
Cased and holstered guns are exempt from the muzzle control rule because a gun in a proper case or holster can't be fired in that condition either on purpose or by accident.
Troops with rifles are constantly sweeping everything in sight.
If they're actually in combat, they're not exactly training, are they? And if they're training, I can assure you that they're not sweeping other trainees--at least not after the training instructor sees them doing it.
How can you reload while keeping your pistol on target...keeping your pistol on target during a reload...
Keeping the gun pointed at the berm/in the general direction of the target is not the same as actually keeping the pistol on target during the reload. The point is that you don't have to point your pistol at the sky/over the berm to reload it and the bigger point is that doing so is unsafe.
That's the best compromise I can think of.
That's the crux of the matter, isn't it. A person training at the range doesn't need to be looking for ways to compromise when it comes to gun safety rules.
 
You can't have your gun out without it being pointed at someone.
Sure you can.
+1

It's fairly easy to keep the muzzle pointed at things OTHER than people. I don't get it when people sweep others and shrug it off with the "It's not loaded" or" The safety is on" BS.
 
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This kind of experience is the best kind of trainer. You will shake this off, keep shooting, and from now on you will look at the safety rules in a whole new light. You won't allow anyone else to be careless.

Experience is the best teacher. Keep moving.
 
Correct/Incorrect is not what I'm discussing. What I'm pointing out is that it's not ok to violate a gun safety rule to make something a little easier or quicker.The "train like you fight" mantra is a wise principle as long as it's not taken to extremes. In other words, it's not a carte blanche to break gun safety rules simply because we know they will be broken in real gunfights.

Certainly agreed here, to an extent. I doubt you would disagree that in some training environments there are exceptions to the rules. If you do disagree with this, and not as a generalization, then I will indeed continue to disagree with you. But I am assuming that is not the case.

It's almost unheard of for people to train like they fight in every respect.

Certainly. I am not sure I disagreed. However not doing so in any aspect is a different story. I at the least, certainly didn't even attempt to argue any of the other examples you gave.

The argument cuts both ways. You're training at the range to become effective at preserving innocent life. How can it possibly make sense to train in such a way that it endangers innocent lives by intentionally creating the potential for rounds to go over the berm and leave the range?

It does go both ways. And I didn't argue such.

And from a practical perspective while most of us train often, we'll never actually be in a gunfight. So it makes even less sense to frequently do something that's against the rules of gun safety in the name of saving a few fractions of a second during an event that the vast majority of us will never even have to encounter. Most of us will never be in a shooting, let alone have to reload "on the clock" in the process.

I am not going to touch this because I doubt I can properly portray to you what I think about what you are saying without sounding argumentative.

Besides, the fact that a rule is commonly broken doesn't make it acceptable to do so. The finger/trigger rule is also commonly broken, but clearly you don't believe that makes it acceptable to ignore that rule even if it makes some particular aspect of training easier or quicker.Cased and holstered guns are exempt from the muzzle control rule because a gun in a proper case or holster can't be fired in that condition either on purpose or by accident.

Try and look at this objectively. And by that meaning I am not asking this either rhetorically or sarcastically (meaning I don't necessarily agree with your assumed answer.) Also keep in mind you, not me, brought up this example

What is different from keeping your finger out of the trigger guard and off the trigger, and having the firearm in a holster, when it comes to muzzle control?

If they're actually in combat, they're not exactly training, are they? And if they're training, I can assure you that they're not sweeping other trainees--at least not after the training instructor sees them doing it.Keeping the gun pointed at the berm/in the general direction of the target is not the same as actually keeping the pistol on target during the reload. The point is that you don't have to point your pistol at the sky/over the berm to reload it and the bigger point is that doing so is unsafe.That's the crux of the matter, isn't it. A person training at the range doesn't need to be looking for ways to compromise when it comes to gun safety rules.

Agreed. I didn't say otherwise, in fact, I said this: "if you are at the range, and you are pointing the firearm to the sky while reloading, that isn't safe."
 
Travis Haley formerly of Magpul Dynamics, former Blackwater operator, and former Force Recon Marine demonstrating what even he calls an Admin reload
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUnLceBAw-U

Thank you for making my point! He starts with a COMPLETELY EMPTY GUN, WITHOUT HAVING FIRED ANY SHOTS. He draws a holstered EMPTY gun, then LOADS it. How can that be a RE-load? The movie clip is mis-named.

Chris Costa also from Magpul doing the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ob5Gk0Hs4U

While he, too, starts with an empty gun, he's NOT doing the same thing. Why? Because he PROPERLY CALLS IT AN "ADMIN LOAD."

Thank you for posting those.
 
At some point, it can happen to anyone. However, it also depends on how you define a ND. If it is purely broken down to the basic: If you had no intention for the gun to fire, and it fired, it is an ND, then I have had one. I was at the range, pointing the muzzle of my (SUPER SAFE GLOCK22) down range. I dropped an empty mag, and inserted a fresh one with a load of fully frangeable rounds for shooting steel. As I dropped the slide the gun went bang with my finger along the frame! I had a slam fire with a G22! So, I have had a ND but luckily, like the OP I was at the range and pointing my weapon down range. I actually hit the target too, with an ND!
 
What is different from keeping your finger out of the trigger guard and off the trigger, and having the firearm in a holster, when it comes to muzzle control?
1. In the former, poor muzzle control will get you yelled at, slapped upside the head, and/or thrown off a range. That's a minor difference, I suppose. I mean, the guy you sweep won't know your finger is off the trigger, or that you're intentionally breaking rules because you're doing some kind of special "training." And I doubt he cares, one way or another.

2. I know way too many people that wrongly believe they always keep their finger off the trigger. Sorry, I don't trust anyone to always be aware of what their trigger finger is doing, and I expect them to doubt me, in return.

3. Pointing a gun at someone could be interpreted as a threat of lethal force, no matter where it happens or how "casual" it looks. So unless you want to incur lethal force on yourself, keep your muzzle pointed in a safe direction.

-Naw, judge. It wasn't armed robbery. I was just ignoring gun safety while I was asking for a loan. My finger was off the trigger.

4. If your gun AD's and shoots someone while it's in your hand, I doubt you'll find any sympathy from a jury in the civil trial, even if the AD is reproducible. "I'm 100% sure my finger was off the trigger." Ok. How many people are going to believe you? I might believe that you're sure, but see #2.

5. Even if sweeping someone with a holstered gun is ok, it is definitely NOT ok to do it while drawing or reholstering. That gun better be pointed in a safe direction before you draw. This is why most ranges do not allow horizontal carry rigs. Most only allow strongside, pointed at the floor, carry.
 
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True, I was at Gunsite shooting a video for a tactical pistol course. I was taking the course prior to shooting the video and COl. Jeff Cooper was still alive and there as a guest for the class. He got up to do a bit and swept the class and everyone in the know (there were soem real NEWBS in the class) cringed and let out a little woah!. No one said anything to COl. Cooper but this shows even one of the best pistoleros who ever lived can make a range fauxpaux. Of course he was well into his 80s when he did this. He also had an ND at the Shot Show one year with a Scout rifle. Someone had left a full mag in it in the stock and some visitor loaded that mag into the rifle (probably to see what happened) and then some other person (Col. Cooper) fired off a round that went thru the ceilling and floor and so on of the rooms above. LOUD in the hall for sure and embarrassing for Gunsite especially!
 
What is different from keeping your finger out of the trigger guard and off the trigger, and having the firearm in a holster, when it comes to muzzle control?
It is because keeping one's finger out of the trigger guard and off the trigger of a firearm is based purely on the person holding the firearm (an imperfect human being who sometimes makes mistakes or reacts involuntarily) while the trigger of a firearm in a proper holster can't be reached or operated without first unholstering the gun.

In other words, if the gun is holstered, there's something besides the person keeping a finger from getting on the trigger.

Ok, I think that some folks are getting the impression that I'm simply picking nits, but that's not my intent at all.

Firearm ranges are under attack in many areas, and all it takes is for a range neighbor to document a bullethole that tracks back to the range to cost the range a LOT of money, time and hassle. It's not unheard for an incident like that to result in the closing of a range. God forbid someone actually gets injured or killed.

We all owe it to the shooting sports and to other gun owners to do the absolute best we can to NOT engage in, encourage, tacitly allow, or even simply ignore or overlook activities that have the potential to send rounds off the range.

I honestly don't understand how reloading an autopistol with the muzzle pointed at the sky came to be a commonly accepted practice, but the fact that it's so common doesn't make it any less dangerous nor does it reduce the potential for a bullet to leave the range.

I'm very happy that the OP was NOT pointing his gun over the backstop when his unintentional discharge happened. I hope we can all learn from the lessons provided by his mistake in ways that will make us all safer shooters.
 
Hello, newbie here. Been scoping around for a good gun forum and found this one. Lots of useful info here! Back to the thread, the only ND I've ever had was when I was about 10 or so. My dad took me to a local dump/shooting area to teach me to shoot a rifle. It was a .22 single shot, not sure of the make. Well anyway, after plinking at an old washing machine for a while, I was getting some confidence after picking off one of the knobs at about 75 ft, I was happy. Dad was looking the other way, as I pulled the gun up to find the target for the next shot, my finger was on the trigger and it went off, hitting the dirt about halfway between me and the target. I knew I had done wrong, but Dad didn't see it thankfully. I felt awful and after that, I have always handled firearms in a safe manner. Live AND learn. Being a carpenter, I have shot more nails out of a nail gun than ammo through a real gun! A few of my nail guns don't have safeties, so keeping the finger off the trigger until ready to fire is second nature now.
 
When I'm on the range I keep the gun pointed toward the berm, not over it. So my practice, including my reload practice, keeps the gun pointed more or less toward the target and definitely toward the berm.
Keeping your gun always pointing in the general direction of the berm is clearly a risk reducing measure when at target shooting practice but limiting when it comes to tactical training. It means, for example, you can't practice shooting while moving through a crowd of people, which is exactly what I did on a recent tactical handgun course. My class mates stood in a line while I zigzagged in and out of the line, taking a shot when in the gap between each pair of people, and pointing the gun vertically down at the ground while walking around each person. Each member of the class got a few turns at being the shooter in this fashion. By your inflexible safety rule, this kind of training could never be permitted. Do you think such training should be banned?

First of all, if you try to keep the gun pointed in the general direction of the person you've already emptied your gun at, then you're not endangering anyone other than the people you already endangered in the process of emptying the gun.
You are referring here to a situation where you have discharged your gun at a person in a real life self defense situation. Your argument is not credible. You don't have the fine control during reloading or while scanning for other threats to keep your gun aimed precisely at the person you just shot. In any case, it's not acceptable to shoot someone unintentionally after they are down and no longer a threat. In this situation, I would suggest that the least hazardous option is to have the gun pointing at the ground or up in the air. At the ground could be good if the ground is soft and not much risk of a ricochet -- otherwise up in the air is probably the best best. In this scenario, keeping the gun horizontal would normally be the most hazardous option, both for the person you just shot and for any bystanders. In short, there aren't any hard and fast rules but instead there is a judgment call to be made in each specific situation as to which is the least hazardous direction to point the muzzle when you are not yet ready to reholster. By always directing your gun at the berm in training, you are leaving yourself unprepared for a real-life situation where keeping the gun horizontal would be unacceptable.
 
Keeping your gun always pointing in the general direction of the berm is clearly a risk reducing measure when at target shooting practice but limiting when it comes to tactical training.
There are some ranges set up to allow more flexible training tactics, but at a conventional range, with a conventional berm, pointing the gun above the berm is unsafe and inadvisable. Does that limit training? Certainly it does, that's simply the reality of training on conventional ranges--you're limited in some regards.
My class mates stood in a line while I zigzagged in and out of the line, taking a shot when in the gap between each pair of people, and pointing the gun vertically down at the ground while walking around each person.
If you need to practice like this then pointing at the ground makes reasonably good sense in most, but not all, scenarios.
By your inflexible safety rule, this kind of training could never be permitted.
If a particular range is set up to safely allow a particular activity then of course that type of training could be permitted assuming the participants understand and agree to the risks involved. The idea that we should be allowed to engage in any type of "tactical training" at any range regardless of the safety limitations imposed by the particular design/construction/location of that particular range is pure madness.
You don't have the fine control during reloading or while scanning for other threats to keep your gun aimed precisely at the person you just shot.
For what it's worth, I didn't say to "keep your gun aimed precisely at the person you just shot". In fact the word that you emphasized is exactly what I did not say. In most scenarios, keeping the gun oriented in the general direction of the threat makes a lot of sense. In some, it obviously does not.
In short, there aren't any hard and fast rules but instead there is a judgment call to be made in each specific situation as to which is the least hazardous direction to point the muzzle when you are not yet ready to reholster.
Yup, I agree. However, this also applies to training. If a particular range doesn't allow a shooter to safely aim upwards then he should not do so. If the range is set up to safely allow that activity then go for it. The point is that many people seem to think that saying the word "tactical" gives them carte blanche to violate safety rules while training. It's not true.
By always directing your gun at the berm in training, you are leaving yourself unprepared for a real-life situation where keeping the gun horizontal would be unacceptable.
This may be true, but it doesn't change the facts. It is unacceptable to engage in unsafe behavior at a range--behavior that explicitly violates the basic rules of gun safety. Dropping the term "tactical" doesn't change that. Range safety limitations are a reality of life that must be accepted. You won't be able to practice every technique at every range because different ranges have different safety restrictions as a consequence of their design, construction and/or location.
 
Live and learn OP glad no one was hurt and I bet you are safer than most of the bozo's blasting you about it now.

I always drop the hammer on my gun at the range after shooting a magazine(aiming downrange of course) and once I was surprised from the pop that followed. Its a training accident/mistake not really what I consider a ND even though technically it is.
 
Reload how you're comfortable. If your gun is unreliable, and your technique is so sloppy, and you have dismal trigger disipline, then by all means keep the gun pointed down range when reloading. Even if you do try to keep your gun on target, it deosn't take much to go over the berm anyways. Especially at longer rifle distances.

I'll index my elbow and keep my pistol up at a 3D angle while reloading. My empty gun isn't going to go off when I slam a mag in. I'm not the least bit concerned about sending a round allmost straight up into the air.

I'd find a better range if I were you. If it deosn't seem safe to do anything there, then don't go. I have a friend of mine that goes to some of the cheaper more popular pistol courses. He witnessed a police officer ND into his leg. 6 months later someone ND'd thier tool box, and another blew thier gun up with reloads.

He keeps asking me to go to the next class with him, and wonders why I will not. More expensive classes kinda weed out these people (mostly), as new shooters aren't going to want to spend that kind of dough, and more instructors keeping an eye on everyone. At IDPA shoots the guys in charge keep a close eye on new faces so i feel better there.
 
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You are referring here to a situation where you have discharged your gun at a person in a real life self defense situation. Your argument is not credible. You don't have the fine control during reloading or while scanning for other threats to keep your gun aimed precisely at the person you just shot. In any case, it's not acceptable to shoot someone unintentionally after they are down and no longer a threat. In this situation, I would suggest that the least hazardous option is to have the gun pointing at the ground or up in the air. At the ground could be good if the ground is soft and not much risk of a ricochet -- otherwise up in the air is probably the best best. In this scenario, keeping the gun horizontal would normally be the most hazardous option, both for the person you just shot and for any bystanders. In short, there aren't any hard and fast rules but instead there is a judgment call to be made in each specific situation as to which is the least hazardous direction to point the muzzle when you are not yet ready to reholster. By always directing your gun at the berm in training, you are leaving yourself unprepared for a real-life situation where keeping the gun horizontal would be unacceptable.

In that situation. Gun goes up to your reloading index if you're stationary, reload if nothing else is going on, then back to the retention postition. If there are people running about in front of your bore. Then you can choose to stay up in the index position.

If you're moving, and more likely to trip and ND, gun goes down with the thumbs together bit, if you're moving slowly. If you're moving too quickly to keep your arms together, gun down one handed.

All clear? Reload and reholster.

Too many people moving about to keep you gun pointed in the direction of your threat. Someone on your team could step in front of you, or a bystander could get up and make a run for it. Not to mention that you don't want your pistol in your outstretched arm for too long. Needs to get tucked in where it's harder to grab from behind.

If I have a clear range and choose to stay in the retention position, and someone jumps infornt of me while I'm in the retension position....so what. Finger is off the trigger anyways, and my 1911 is on safe.

One of the reasons I love switching from my other pistols to a 1911. When ever I'm finished getting that last round on target my safety gets flicked up. And I ride it with my thumb. Threat pops up, that safey is off before I even swing onto target. Just like with an AR.

If the OP meant in his post: 2 shots, tac reload, 2 shots. A 1911 would have prevented his ND.
 
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