need advice rifle project low cost 1000 yard gun

[444]

I have heard, countless times, someone say: "That scope cost more than the rifle".
Like that means anything. First of all, where is it written that the scope SHOULDN'T cost more than the rifle ?

I knew when I started shooting at long range that I would be buying a GOOD scope, but to start off with, I just used a scope that I had lying around. Which happened to be a Weaver T-36 that I use on my air rifle in the winter: it is summer, so I wasn't using it. I was at a range where the 1000 yard plates were heavily shaded by trees. There are five plates: 5", 8", 7.5"x12", 16"x17", and 24"x24". I could only see the first and last plate through my scope. I could have had the best rifle in the world with the best ammo in the world and I still couldn't even see three out of the five targets. The guy next to me had a Vortex Razor and I asked him if I could look through his scope: I could easily and clearly see all five plates. Different times I had other guys look through my Weaver T-36 and they all said, "Where are the crosshairs ?" Because that scope has very very fine crosshairs which work fine for shooting paper targets with an airgun at 30 yards, but when you are shooting at a plate at 1000 yards with varying light conditions, varying backgrounds..............you can barely see the crosshairs.

The point being, I would put a lot of thought and a lot of money into a scope. Then worry about the rifle almost as an afterthought. Whatever rifle you buy, you will shoot out the barrel and replace it with a better barrel, You will probably upgrade the stock, you will do all kinds of mods and upgrades to it...........over the years. But the scope you buy, is what you end up with unless you buy a new scope. Buy the best scope you possibly can. You will never be able to shoot any better than you can see.

 

[Varminterror]

I have heard, countless times, someone say: "That scope cost more than the rifle".
Like that means anything. First of all, where is it written that the scope SHOULDN'T cost more than the rifle ?

I agree - if I had $2,000, I would rather have a $750 rifle and a $1,250 optic than the other way around. Even money on both isn't a bad bet either. But when you get a $500 optic on top of a $1,000 or $1,500 rifle, you're short changing yourself big time.

 

[wally]

if I had $2,000, I would rather have a $750 rifle and a $1,250 optic than the other way around. Even money on both isn't a bad bet either. But when you get a $500 optic on top of a $1,000 or $1,500 rifle, you're short changing yourself big time.

I don't know, I have an ~$350 Primary Arms 4-14 FPP scope on my Ruger Precision Rifle and so far I don't feel its holding me back in any way shooting Hornady Steel Match ammo. Perhaps the fact I can't much get further out than 400 yards is masking the problem, but I don't see how a more expensive scope could help steady my hold or improve my wind estimations.

 

[Varminterror]

I don't know, I have an ~$350 Primary Arms 4-14 FPP scope on my Ruger Precision Rifle and so far I don't feel its holding me back in any way shooting Hornady Steel Match ammo

Can't say I didn't warn anybody.

Cue 20 guys who have hit 48" gongs at 1,000yrds with their Ruger American and Vortex Crossfire...

Perhaps the fact I can't much get further out than 400 yards is masking the problem,

I'd personally bet this is the case. I'll steal a snippet from my own post in this thread. Replace spotting scope with rifle scope in the text below and it will remain true. When you're running lower end optics, things can look just fine at short ranges, and then look like a blur at long ranges. A better optic will resolve the mirage lines and let you "read between the lines" and still pick up much better resolution. On a nice and cool morning with no wind, almost any optic will keep a guy happy. When the Earth starts to breath and mirage starts whipping around, better optics keep a shooter in the game, where lesser optics leave the shooter guessing.

spotting scopes are NOT all created equal. A Simmons Blazer is cheap, but it won't be able to resolve a bullet strike on steel past about 300-400 if you have ANY mirage, whereas I can see strikes on a fresh painted target at 1,000yrds, 600 on a bad boil day with a Bushnell Elite 20-60 - except it costs something like 20x more than the Simmons. Cheap spotting scopes cause headaches and wasted ammo.

Here's a description of a range session I had recently: I pulled deep out of the closet to scope a couple "demo" rifles to let some students see the difference in glass quality and magnification. I had a $900 Sig Tango4 4-16x44, a $900 Vortex Viper HSLR 6-24x50mm, a $350 Nikon Buckmaster 6-18x40mm (discontinued), and a $125 Barska 6-24x50mm. Shooting at 600 and 800yrds on orange or white painted targets, which would yield black/brown/grey strikes of ~1/2" dia with 5.56 and ~3/4" with 6.5 grendel. The Barska couldn't see the bullet strikes at all, couldn't see bolt heads on the face of the target either, and the chains get lost in the mirage. The Nikon at 18x would let us see smudges from time to time between the mirage, and could make out the chains as a chain and not a fuzzy grey rope. The Sig, despite being lower magnification, would let me see bullet strikes better than the Nikon, I could call impacts ALMOST as well with the Sig as I could the Vortex at 600yrds, but the 24x Vortex was able to capitalize on its higher magnification and better see the strikes at 800. It was a bit of a challenge to pick out which strike was which when the round count got high, and seeing new strikes on a blob of old strikes was impossible, but for the strikes on fresh paint, the difference in a $125 6-24x and a $900 6-24x was like night and day - even between a $350 6-18x and a $900 4-16x. Of course, between the two higher end optics, the gap was nill.

Any one of the above scopes was easy shooting at 300yrds that day when we were confirming zeros before stretching out.

So does a guy need a $1,000 scope to shoot 300-400yrds? Eh, not really. But this thread isn't about shooting 300-400yrds. Is there a huge difference in a $750 scope and one at $1250? Eh, not life changing there either. But that's not what I said either. I said I'd rather have a $1250 scope on a $750 rifle than the other way around. The same plateau doesn't exist for rifle scopes from $750 to $1,250 as it does for rifles - you don't gain anything significant by paying that extra $500 for a rifle, whereas you DO gain something in paying the extra $500 for a scope.

 

[Orcon]

Making hits on targets beyond 600 yard tends to bring out the worst in tracking ability and optical quality. Your windage and elevation adjustments don't mean jack-diddly if your scope isn't tracking properly or you can't see your target well enough to count hits.

At some point you may find yourself watching the aiming black turn into a spinning vortex of mockery and disillusionment, fruitlessly and furiously turning knobs praying that providence guide you back to the 10 ring...or at least the 9.

 

[Klint Beastwood]

I have to say I've never had a problem getting these Japanese scopes out past 1000y during day time. I whole heartily agree on the difference and importance of optical clarity in a better scope. I love my pm2. I'd venture to say on top of glass and glass coating that looking for enough ups, and a good reticle, and good qaulity control is another benefit from the high end.
That being said I've maxed some of the swfa's off at a mile....
10.5" water jug. At 1760, a swfa 3-15, depending on the light conditions was fine. there are some image distortion...some graininess too, and I'd say that bottomed out the potential for 15x. That being said, in the big scheme of the long range shooting, 1000y isn't really that far. Budget scopes that are made for long range shooting will work just fine. Vortex and primary arms sources there scope parts and uses the same place that does assembly lol for some product lines, If you have a good spotter...and a good person spotter. You can do just fine at 1000y. If you are competing at ko2m, well ok then. Ior valdada it is, or nightforce or schmitty, Steiner and all the other favorites are coming out

 

[redneck2]

I have a 6.5-20x40 VX-III on my 7mag that's set up for 1k.

Is it optimum. No. Is it adequate? A qualified yes. Glass is clearer than most budget scopes and they tend to track well.

This might get you started, and you can probably find one used for $300-400 max. Mine is in Burris Zee rings with a .020 offset. Leupold has a lifetime warranty, so if there's something wrong they will fix it or upgrade no charge. After you're done with it and ready to upgrade, you'll get most or all of your money back

Just a thought.

 

[2ndtimer]

For bench? Easy. Savage 12FV. Put good glass on it, and go. You'll be well under $1k. It's the best value by far in long range.

Edit: The 12FV is not exclusive to Cabelas. But they offer it at the best price.

Just got a Cabela's flyer in the mail. Savage 12FV on sale for $319.99, offered in .308 Win and 6.5 Creedmore. Best long range bang for the buck available, IMO.

 

[RussellC]

Thanks for the headsup. Just got one in .223 Rem., may have to get another in .308 or 6.5 CM.
This is just the sale I have been waiting for, free ship on items over 99 bucks until 9/12. It, (the sale) is actually a rebate visa card. I could get both rifles for 640.00 unless there is a limit per customer. The rifle rebate is good until december.

I dont see anything limiting it to one per customer, but there is some sort of tax, a "Federal Firearms Excise tax" the cost of which is not specified.....anyone done this before and know what this tax amounts to? If not, I will respond when I get it. It looks like it takes 6-8 weeks to get the visa rebate....still a sweet deal.

Russellc

 

[2ndtimer]

Thanks for the headsup. Just got one in .223 Rem., may have to get another in .308 or 6.5 CM.
This is just the sale I have been waiting for, free ship on items over 99 bucks until 9/12. It, (the sale) is actually a rebate visa card. I could get both rifles for 640.00 unless there is a limit per customer. The rifle rebate is good until december.

I dont see anything limiting it to one per customer, but there is some sort of tax, a "Federal Firearms Excise tax" the cost of which is not specified.....anyone done this before and know what this tax amounts to? If not, I will respond when I get it. It looks like it takes 6-8 weeks to get the visa rebate....still a sweet deal.

Russellc

The flyer I got just stated $100 off. No mention of a rebate or anything like that. Sounds like just filling out the forms and paying for them, plus sales tax, if applicable where your Cabela's is located.

 

[RussellC]

I called them, while the 12 FV was tagged in the add, the description said 12FCV....I wanted to make sure there was no confusion, and that free ship provided. I guess I should call Savage and make sure.

Russellc

 

[NWcityguy2]

I've added emphasis to what seems like the meat and potatoes of the OP.

I've been looking at the lower cost bolt actions by Remington, Savage, Howa, and Ruger and thinking on getting one for open desert fun, just informal competing against friends at 1000 yds or so. Not sure what to get. Is there anything that is a deal that really stands out accuracy wise?

I'm planning to use off the shelf match grade ammo, so that narrows things down. Have looked at scopes, the Millet 6-25x and a Leupold 6-18x, a Weaver Kaspa 6-18. Looking at .308, 6.5 creed, and .300WM. Don't have a budget per se, just don't care to spend more than needed. Suggestions?

That, to me, summarizes the OPs intent better than talking about multi-thousand dollar projects, reloading techniques, and high dollar optics.

Things to consider...

1. 308 will get you to 1000 yards, and while it will get pushed around by the wind more, it will also have more factory ammunition options. Consider a heavy barreled 308 from Savage, Howa or Mossberg, one that will allow a muzzle break to be threaded on. Cost will be $500-600.

2. A straight 10x or 12x SWFA scope will dial correcty, and be optically decent. I'd compare mine optically to a budget Nikon Monarch. Also, it will have a well thought out reticle for wind or holdover. Cost will be $300-400.

3. Get a bipod too. Cost will be less than $75.

4. Make your own sand sock. Free.

5. Take a deep breath because it's okay to start small. If you were really planning on diving into the deep end of LRS/PRS competition, I assume you would of said that instead of what you actually said.

 

[RussellC]

Its also available in 6.5 CM, further addressing the wind issue.

Bullets.com has the Bald Eagle rest, regular 425 for 165 right now. Protektor rear bags are not that expensive. Thats the setup I went with, quite pleased.

Russellc

 

[RussellC]

On phone with Savage now, they say it is only for 12 FCV, I told them cabelas sight specifies 12 FV, and saleman told me "yes". On hold to see if this is an exception that qualifies...

Russellc

 

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Is the rebate good then on the FV

 

[2ndtimer]

My guess would be the rebate does not apply to the Cabela's 12FV. It is on sale for $319.99, just how big a loss do you guys expect Cabela's/Savage to take? ($219.95 would be ridiculous. At that price, I would even have to buy one in 6.5 Creedmore, which would then require dies, brass and another scope, which I can ill afford. )

 

[JeeperCreeper]

Too many good options. So go with a bad option: Mosin Nagant.

 

[LUCKYDAWG13]

My guess would be the rebate does not apply to the Cabela's 12FV. It is on sale for $319.99, just how big a loss do you guys expect Cabela's/Savage to take? ($219.95 would be ridiculous. At that price, I would even have to buy one in 6.5 Creedmore, which would then require dies, brass and another scope, which I can ill afford. )

Look at the ad it said mail in rebate http://www.cabelas.com/product/shoo.../savage-fv-varmint-rifle/1994604.uts?slotId=0

 

[bangswitch]

Cue 20 guys who have hit 48" gongs at 1,000yrds with their Ruger American and Vortex Crossfire...

What's the matter with that? It's only (almost) 5 MOA. Now, I'd start scratching my head and rolling my eyes if it were a 15" gong or plate.

I can understand the desire to not spend a lot of money, but with firearms, at least, it's a waste of money unless you DO spend a fair amount. You get what you pay for. Inexpensive relates directly to cheap, IMO, when you buy a firearm. If you want to shoot and be the least bit serious about hitting something with any degree of regularity, just spend what's needed to get a quality piece, whether you build it yourself, or get one of the latest and greatest off the shelf. If all you want to do is make a lot of noise and create empty shell casings from loaded ammo, then find an old beat-up Mosin and have at it.

 

[RussellC]

Is the rebate good then on the FV

Well, short story is YES!. The person I talked to said "NO, only the FCV." Thanked them, and called Cabelas for explanation, the $100.00 assurity they gave me driving the whole purchase. Cabelas told me to come on in, and they would make it right....another call coming in, from the same Savage number I called. They left a message stating their mistake, they called the number to the promotion and the FV IS included. Went to Cabelas and picked it up. Bravo to both Cabelas and Savage. Savage apologized profusely for the accidental misinformation, and Cabelas, getting ready to take care of it anyway! That's what customer service is about! Thinking of going ahead with the .308 or 6.5 CM.

Two great companies!

Russellc

 

[RussellC]

Look at the ad it said mail in rebate http://www.cabelas.com/product/shooting/firearms/centerfire-rifles/bolt-action-centerfire-rifles|/pc/104792580/c/553829580/sc/105522480/i/105523380/savage-fv-varmint-rifle/1994604.uts?slotId=0

Yes, in my area, it is a prepaid Visa card. Some areas get a check.

Russellc

 

[RussellC]

My guess would be the rebate does not apply to the Cabela's 12FV. It is on sale for $319.99, just how big a loss do you guys expect Cabela's/Savage to take? ($219.95 would be ridiculous. At that price, I would even have to buy one in 6.5 Creedmore, which would then require dies, brass and another scope, which I can ill afford. )

No, you misunderstand completely. Nobody expected that, and nobody said that. The price is 419.99, and the 100 dollar rebate makes it 319.99. If you read more carefully, the doubts were whether or not it applied to the FV, promotion's fine print said FCV. At first Savage said no, then corrected. Did you read the post?

Russellc

 

[RussellC]

What's the matter with that? It's only (almost) 5 MOA. Now, I'd start scratching my head and rolling my eyes if it were a 15" gong or plate.

I can understand the desire to not spend a lot of money, but with firearms, at least, it's a waste of money unless you DO spend a fair amount. You get what you pay for. Inexpensive relates directly to cheap, IMO, when you buy a firearm. If you want to shoot and be the least bit serious about hitting something with any degree of regularity, just spend what's needed to get a quality piece, whether you build it yourself, or get one of the latest and greatest off the shelf. If all you want to do is make a lot of noise and create empty shell casings from loaded ammo, then find an old beat-up Mosin and have at it.

Apparently you are unaware of the Savage 12FV legendary accuracy? The Savage action with a Match barrel (more expense) will be plenty accurate in the correct caliber, no problem. At 1000 or less, the standard varmint barrel should impress. The no expense spared part is with the Optic. You can stick to Nagants, I'll take the FV LOL.
With mine, I eventually plan on not only a match barrel, but a chassis from MDT as well.
Like most things, yeah you could spend 2 or 3 times as much for a slight and diminishing return that will make no difference at the distances I shoot, (Im looking for 300+ yards without much luck ) in fact the Nagant MAY be adequate! In the world of long distance shooting 1000 yards is nothing. Surely with your signature you are aware of these things?

Russellc

 

[2ndtimer]

No, you misunderstand completely. Nobody expected that, and nobody said that. The price is 419.99, and the 100 dollar rebate makes it 319.99. If you read more carefully, the doubts were whether or not it applied to the FV, promotion's fine print said FCV. At first Savage said no, then corrected. Did you read the post?


Russellc

Yes, Russell, I did read the post. Did you read mine, where I stated the ad I received in the mail said $100 off the regular price of $419.99. No mention in the ad I received in the mail of a rebate or prepaid Visa card. Still, I believe that rifle for $319.99 to be a steal. The one I bought for my son in .308 Win is a tack driver with Nosler 175 gr HPBT Custom Competition bullets and IMR-4064.

 

[RussellC]

Yes, Russell, I did read the post. Did you read mine, where I stated the ad I received in the mail said $100 off the regular price of $419.99. No mention in the ad I received in the mail of a rebate or prepaid Visa card. Still, I believe that rifle for $319.99 to be a steal. The one I bought for my son in .308 Win is a tack driver with Nosler 175 gr HPBT Custom Competition bullets and IMR-4064.

Here its a rebate. Glad to hear you like the .308, i am considering one of those as well. Agreed this is s fantastic price. They, and others have nicer versions, Whittaker had a really good deal on a super nice stainless Tikka, but I can get two of the 12FV rifles for that price.

This is my first bolt gun, what scope and mount did you use?

One other question, a silly one but how is this gun loaded? Obviously it is the top load version so I assume you just force them past the lips into the mag? The instructions did not
Actually describe the process and I didnt want to deform the lips of the magazine.

Russellc