Need guidance/ factual info on Mosin-Nagant 91/30s

[Texan Scott]

OK, so I have never owned or even fired a bolt action rifle, but i'm skint poor, i need a new deer/hog rifle, i'm not afraid to branch out a bit, and i'm considering a M-N 91/30. i've read up on the history, mechanics, etc; what i need is practical advice.
My intention is to get a cheap ($125 plus shipping/ppwrk is cheap) hunting-caliber bolt action that i can learn on, drag in the mud, beat up a little, and not cry if it gets ugly. (I don't MEAN to abuse it, but i know how i am with tools when i'm inexperienced with them).
Specific questions:
- Does anyone have hunting experience with the 91/30 to share?
- What's a good hunting load (SP of course- but grain weight? Tula, Brown Bear, Prvi Partisan, Sellier& Bellot?)
- Is steel cased ammo ok? what's the deal with 'corrosive' ammo?
- What kind of accuracy should I expect? Is 3' at 100 yds to be expected, or will it likely need professional help to get down to 'angle of deer heart"? It doesn't need to be a tack driver, just a reliable meat-in-the-freezer gun.
- Since i'm looking for a cheap shooter, should i care if it says 'arsenal refurbished'? would that be a plus (refurbished) or a minus (mix-n-matched parts)?
- Does anyone have experience with either J&G Sales or AIM Surplus? what should i ask/ look for when i shop?
Please, replies from owners/ users are appreciated. Replies such as 'i would never buy one, they're crap!' should be backed up or explained, if possible. Not saying i won't listen to or don't want negative input, just need it to be reasoned and factual, or it doesn't add to my knowledge. i already know some people think poorly of them; if you do, please explain WHY in small words i understand (i know almost nothing about boltguns.)
Of course, i am am aware that H&R makes cheap single shots, or that I could have a brand new Stevens 200 for less than 3 times the price, etc, but with respect, that's not what i'm asking.
words of wisdom from the voices of experience, that's why i'm here.
THANKS!

 

[MtnCreek]

It would be a real plus if you could hold it / inspect it prior to purchase. I have a mosin made in 44 or 45 and the barrel looks like crap. It's about a 5 or 6" rifle with early 50's surplus.

 

[Texan Scott]

rgr on holding first being prefered... accuracy: does impove with new production ammo? does "bore may be a bit dark, but rifling is strong, should be a good shooter' sound fishy to you?

 

[foghornl]

Barnaul, Silver Bear, Brown Bear & Prvi Partizan offer a soft-point "Hunting Ammo" load in 7.62x54. I have used the Barnaul in my M-44 Mosin-Nagant, and it shot well. (Can't use modern rifles for deer here in Ohio...shotgun & slug only). The barnaul was a 203-Gr bullet. NO FULL METAL JACKET (BALL) Ammo for hunting, Please...

Corrosive ammo refers to the primer..corrosive primers use a Potassium salt compund, if i remember. The resiude attracts moisture. moisture & salt = rust (corrosion)

J&G and AIM both have well deserved good reputations for products & services.

As long as your 91/30 is in reasonably good conditioon, it should certainly be "minute of Bambi" @100Yds

 

[Telekinesis]

I don't have my MN any more, but I had it set up for hunting at one point so I'll put in some of my observations.

Ammo: I'm not sure I would trust the russian SP/HP loadings. I've heard of them not expanding reliably, and that's not really a risk I want to take while hunting. I already have to drag the animal a good distance, its not helping if the bullet fails to expand and punches a clean hole and the animal runs a few hundred more yards before he dies. I found that Winchester SP worked decently, but be prepared for sticker shock, it was over $1 per round last I checked (local store price, so internet might be cheaper). You're looking at between 150gr and 180gr ammo btw.

Brass or steel case is fine in a Mosin, but hunting I'm more concerned about what the bullet does down range than what the case looks like. I HIGHLY doubt that you'll find any corrosive hunting ammo, but its not a big deal. Just clean your rifle when you get home from the range and it'll be fine.

Accuracy is a mixed bag. Most average 3-4" at 100 yards, however there are a few things that you can do to help that. Namely shimming the action and floating the barrel (removing the upper hand guard and sanding down the inside of the lower hand guard so no wood touches the barrel). It looks ugly as hell, but it works. I got my 91/30 down to just a tad over 1" at 100 yards. Your trigger will likely need work as well if you really want to make it accurate.

Pretty much all guns you're going to find at distributes in the $100-150 range are going to be arsenal refurbished. Thats what the Russians did with guns when they went out of service: clean them up and stick them in a warehouse forever. They were incredibly afraid of getting into another war with insufficient firepower. In WW2, there were several battles where only about half of the Russian soldiers had weapons. With the russian "rearsenal and store" method, at least all of them would have something for the next round of fighting.

The biggest problem I found was that the sights are indexed to shoot with the bayonet attached, so they will not shoot to POA out of the box, and you sometimes have to do something to raise the front sight to get it to zero (either replace it or extend it, it is that far off) or just hold low. Another big problem is that the rifle is an absolute pain to put a scope on, and looks even worse with it than it did with just half a hand guard. You might want to look into the russian style scopes, but they're a bit expensive and sometimes have to be offset in relation to the bore...

 

[Mk VII]

The rather agricultural trigger will impede your ability to get a quick hunting snap shot.

 

[Texan Scott]

excellent informtion, thanks to ALL so far. Scopes i can do without, but it's getting hard, it seems, to find bolt guns with SIGHTS. For me, that's always been a selling point for lever guns. I don't mind paying a dollor more for the round that puts meat in the freezer, if i can find cheap fmj for practice that shoots to similar POA. i also know from handling 7.62x39s that russian HP is more or less russian ball with a hole in front. being a 30-30 guy by inclination, i believe in soft point for EVERYTHING. Can i assume that when you talk about poor SP peformnce in russian ammo, you mean the 'mild steel' cores? i'd kind of expect that- i don't care how mild it is, it's not soft lead.
how hard is it to smooth a MN trigger? will a bit of fine grit/ emery paper do, or does it need springs clipped, stretched, etc? (or heaven forfend, does it pretty much necessitate a professional gunsmith's attention? I'd do it, if safety/ sense demanded, but too much of that sort of thing makes buying a cheap rifle not-so-cheap).

 

[Mk VII]

Only a limited amount can be done to improve the trigger, which is fundamentally a poor design. The Finland ones use a better trigger, but the price reflects that.

 

[Texan Scott]

Mark VII, i'm a rather 'agricultural' shooter, lol... that's part of the reason for learning on something inexpensive... putting a lot of money into a rifle i don't know well is like putting a silk hat on a pig.
As much as i enjoyed living in England (Lincolnshire) for 3 years, one of the big regrets of my life right now is that I SOLD ALL MY GUNS before i moved there. I'm home now, and i don't ever want to leave Texas again... nor will i sell a gun or give away a dog again. NEVAH, NEVAH, NEVAH!

 

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

Your choice of a Mosin is fine. It'll do what you ask of it, reliably. I have fired well over 1,000 rounds through mine and have only had one fail to go bang. Ammunition's fault.


Sent from my MP3/Hands-Free/Web-Browsing Device

 

[mgkdrgn]

rgr on holding first being prefered... accuracy: does impove with new production ammo? does "bore may be a bit dark, but rifling is strong, should be a good shooter' sound fishy to you?

Nope

I've sold 700 just like that ... never had one brought back. Had lots of folks come back and get 2 or 3 more ... but never one returned.

Columbia Arms

 

[BCRider]

The rather agricultural trigger will impede your ability to get a quick hunting snap shot.

The rather agricultural trigger is easiy tuned to be more in line with what the trigger of a good hunting rifle SHOULD be like. There's simply tons of information on the web about doing just this sort of thing.

To the OP. If your eyes are able to work well enough to put 5 rounds in a 3 inch circle at 100 yards then I suspect that a decent Russian Mosin will do the job. Hell, with my eyes I can barely see a 3 inch target at 100 yards. Yet I can still pull out a 4 inch group. So someone that can acutally SEE the darn thing at 100 and isn't shooting surplus like me should easily keep the shots within a 3 inch diameter.

 

[16in50calNavalRifle]

J&G Sales has been fine in my dealings with them. Heard nothing but good things about AIM, as well. Another option is Classic Arms - have had good luck with them, but they are a bit smaller and quirkier than the others if that matters to you (I sort of like it). As noted by others it's good to hold it in your hands first, so if you are near any local stores with decent milsurp offerings that should be your first stop.

Some of the online vendors also have a "hand pick" option; many say they see no value in it, but if you called them and made a nice impression I'd think you could request one with a good crown (or clean counter-bore which in effect restores the crown) and perhaps do well.

Not a hunter nor a long-time rifle shooter, but as I am able to use my 91/30 (I have several) fairly well in an action rifle shoot that I do, and as I put only a medium level of effort into accurizing my Mosins (drift the front sight for windage, no bedding or serious mods), I would think you would find a decent Mosin suitable for the stated task.

I am completely confident in stating a 91/30 will meet your requirement for rough and durable. The wood is arctic birch and takes a beating (and refinishing to make it look nice, if you wanted, is very simple) and the metal work is very 19th Century, generally over-built. People who do not clean their rifles thoroughly of cosmoline sometimes get "sticky bolt" when the gun heats up - and they can be seen at the range casually beating the sense out of the bolt handle with a mallet to open up the action - which gives you some idea of how tough they are. The only thing to keep in mind when slinging the rifle around is the damage IT might do to other things - they're generally heavier and tougher than most things you own.

I know only from conversations at local shops that Mosins are quite popular for pig hunting in southern and central CA, including the shorter carbine versions (M38, M44). I gather that activity can be rather fast-moving and a bit more demanding than most deer hunting, so I would think a Mosin would be fine for deer.

 

[courtgreene]

I got mine through Aim surplus, as I did two other guns, and that's four firearms with nary a complaint. as for the sights, a Mosin's iron sights are not very good at all. In addition to shooting high they are also very hard to shoot repeatably well. The sight picture itself is just not great in my opinion. The fix, however, is not as bad as people make it seem. You simply remove the factory rear sight and use the dove tail that's already there to throw on some .22 rings. I did this and used a cheap pistol scope. The rings haven't walked any, and I can keep all my shots in the ten ring at 100 yards. That's 2 or 3 inches, and I haven't met a deer small enough to need tighter groups than that.
As for ammunition, I used the brown bear stuff for a while but it was terribly inconsistent, and I decided to start reloading. One problem, brass is scarce. So I got 100 rounds of Prvi Partizan, and while I haven't started reloading for this cartridge yet, I am saving the brass. I don't think I have to worry about getting good loads developed before deer season, because those rounds happen to shoot VERY well in my rifle, and according to the reviews they work well when they hit a deer. I got the gun for a rainy day deer rifle, when I didn't feel like taking a more expensive rifle out to risk rust, and I intend to use it this season.
Finally, there are two additional things about which you should think. First, if you pull the handguard you will need to make a choice. one of the bands won't come off without either breaking it or removing the front sight. I didn't want to break mine so I removed the front sight. It sucks. Those things have been sitting there for seventy years and they prove the object at rest part of inertia to be accurate... they're hard to budge is what I'm saying. If you want to put money into it, the ati stocks work well, or mine did anyway, but then you still have to remove the sight or break the band. One other option, if you can stand it, is to just let the barrel band hang there. I didn't like that option. Finally, it bears mention that the rifle will come LOADED with cosmoline. That's not bad, because that's what keeps them rust free and ready to hunt, but you'll need to get as much of that out of the gun as you can. It's easy to remove from the metal parts, but it can take a lifetime to get it all out of the stock, if it is even possible in one or several lifetimes. But if you can handle smoothing a trigger (mine was actually quite good from the time i openned the box) then you can handle removing some grease.

 

[35 Whelen]

I've owned several and they'll certainly "do" for a hunting rifle. Accuracy with all of those I owned was normally 3.5" at most with open sights @ 100 yds. I even made a couple of them into more practical rifles, but alas, you know what they say about polishing a turd....

If it's really and truly all you can afford then go for it. But keep a few things in mind. As others have said the triggers suck. I did devise a fairly simple fix that will make the triggers infinitely better: Read About it Here

The 91/30's are LONG...TOO long for practical use, but again, they'll work. The M44's are handy in length, but the barrels are almost too short and muzzle blast can be ferocious and recoil is nothing to sneeze at.

Another thing to consider is this: when hunting at dawn and dusk, the cheapest scopes are better than the most expensive sights. No matter how good your eyes are, unless you can see in the dark, hunting with open sight can be a real hindrance. Before the demise of the Surplus Rifle site, there was an excellent article on how to make the Mosin front sight adjustable for elevation. I've done a few and it makes it noce for regulating the sights.

Ammunition: I'm primarily a handloader, but have purchased some commercial ammo as a way to obtain brass. Prvi and Wolf Gold (one and the same) ammunition, in my experience, are good. IIRC they make a 150 gr. SP load for the 7.62x54r which would be perfect for the 7.62x54r for use on deer and hogs.

If I may suggest, scrimp, save and squeeze until you have $200 or so. For that much you can buy a 1916 Mauser in 7x57 or .308. Many times the 7x57's sell for under $200. These rifles have reasonably good sights, can easily have aperture sights installed, and are quite simple to mount scopes on.

Good luck!
35W

 

[TurtlePhish]

I love my Mosins, I got my 91/30 from AIM and my M44 off of Gunbroker. They're both great shooters. The 91/30 has a dark bore, but other than that the rifling looks close to new. Recoil is light offhand but a little painful off the bench. I've put two tins of surplus through the two of them and never had a failure to fire, cleanup of corrosive is easy- just pour boiling water down the bore and over the bolt head. It evaporates almost instantly and washes off all the salts, then just clean and oil everything as usual. These guns are the epitome of Soviet doctrine- cheap, low maintenance, simple, indestructible.

Here's some pics:











I refinished the 91/30, decided not to do anything to the M44. I like it's character.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

You can raise the front sight by slipping a bit of insulation from a piece of #12 THHN wire over it and trimming to zero. Any electrician should be able to supply you a piece for nothing. Once you get it zeroed at 100 yds the elevation adjustment is balls on for distances out to 600 yards in my experience with three Mosins. I can easily hit a bowling ball sized target at 300 yds while standing with any of mine using surplus ammo, but the recoil is a killer. I would recommend some type of butt pad or shoulder pad for shooting without serious damage to yourself. Don't worry too much about the "corrosive" ammo hype as long as you clean it at the end of the day. When I am done shooting mine I usually give it a good blast of WD-40 to absorb any moisture that may appear before you can clean it. I have yet to see any Mosins or SKS's with severe corrosion damage and I am sure they did not receive proper cleaning while in use on the battlefields. I am sure there are some somewhere but I have never seen the evidence so I usually don't give a lot of credence to those who have a meltdown over the corrosion factor of "corrosive" primers.

 

[16in50calNavalRifle]

Steel Horse Rider makes a point I did not (my post was too long as it was) - Mosins generally shoot "high". Sometimes this is right in line with the design - a soldier holding on the belt of an opponent in a typical tunic of that period would stand a good chance of his shot hitting in the torso. Sometimes the front sight posts may be ground a bit low.

SHR's fix is similar to mine - I prefer to super-glue a length of coffee-stirrer on the front post, then trim to desired point of impact. I believe the OP said he had sold all of his guns at some point - I can't think of a cheaper and more interesting way to get back into shooting, hunting or not, than to pick up a nice Mosin and blast away. As a bonus, the surplus ammo is plentiful, dirt cheap, and comes in air-tight spam cans that you can toss in the corner of the garage and open 10 years from now with every confidence it will be good as new.

 

[Joshua M. Smith]

Tex Scott,

Should you choose to go with the Mosin for deer and hog hunting, I will send you a sight free of charge.

Let me know what kind of hunting you plan on doing: Brush distance, etc. I regularly take coyote at about 200 yards with the target sight.

On the other hand, the red sight seems to be best in the woods:

​

Mine sees a lot of use. I still grab it when there are newer firearms I can go to. The bayonet can be used to finish hogs if you're so inclined, as well.

Please shoot me a PM when you get the rifle; let me know what type it is and your address.

Regards,

 

[mgkdrgn]

Tex Scott,

Should you choose to go with the Mosin for deer and hog hunting, I will send you a sight free of charge.

Let me know what kind of hunting you plan on doing: Brush distance, etc. I regularly take coyote at about 200 yards with the target sight.

On the other hand, the red sight seems to be best in the woods:

​

Mine sees a lot of use. I still grab it when there are newer firearms I can go to. The bayonet can be used to finish hogs if you're so inclined, as well.

Please shoot me a PM when you get the rifle; let me know what type it is and your address.

Regards,

Combine that with a MoJo peep on the rear ... hubba hubba!

 

[Cosmoline]

It would be a real plus if you could hold it / inspect it prior to purchase.

This. There are Mosins and there are Mosins. You really want to be able to get a feel for the rifle before buying it, esp. if you don't have much money to spend. A few tips:

--The bolt should feel a little sloppy and loose opening and closing. Not tight like a Mauser's.
--The interrupter/ejector should be functional to prevent rimlock.
--The bore should be reasonably sharp, and the crown should have visible lands or at least even erosion
--The rifle should be secure in the stock, and not wiggle around.

The best reasonably cheap ammo for general mid size game hunting is probably the 180 grain S&B SP's, also packaged under the Winchester label. You will need to fire for effect first and probably do some work drifting the sight, as the rifle may be calibrated for something different. If you're after best accuracy try a mix of ammo to see what it likes.

In spite of the length, the 91/30 is a very comfortable rifle to carry. The strap is wide and soft, the dog collar attachments give a natural elasticity, and the balance is excellent. It can also be carried for miles balanced on the shoulder, muzzle forward and down.

 

[SimplyChad]

JG has type 53s for sale at 150. Its just a mosin carbine and would make a handier rifle

 

[TenDriver]

Is saving a little more and buying domestic bolt gun a possibility? I can certainly understand if it's not.

That being said, I have a 91/30 that I love. I'm minute of clay with it at 200 yds, plenty good enough for deer. If you buy one, float the barrel and look for pre-war production. Ammo costs are going to be a wash compared to more recent calibers as the milsurp isn't good for hunting.

 

[ball3006]

Most of the internet information on Mosin Nagants is BS. If you buy a Mosin Nagant, go to the range and PRACTICE with the rifle. The trigger becomes a non issue with practice. For hunting, use Privi 150 gr sp ammo. Some of my rifle will shoot sub minute of angle with it. Besides, it is great brass for reloading. The front sight on a Mosin Nagant is set for 200 yards. If you shoot at a shorter range, you need to modify the sight or hold low on the target. The thing to remember is most surplus ammo has corrosive primers so you have to clean accordingly right after shooting or your bore will rust......chris3

 

[TrickyDick]

I'm taking mine hunting and using Prvi 148gr( or 150gr, Can't remember) SP. One of the few things people fail to mention is the production year. I say this because if you're unfamiliar with history, Germany inavaded the USSR in 1941, so once that happened, quality and specs got even sloppier due to rush in production. You'll notice the presence of grommets or lack of after 1941. and the wood could possibly be built with different pieces as opposed to a solid piece. this isn't true for all post '41s but it's something to consider. as for a Hex receiver, it's usually higher quality than the round receiver. but like everyone said, it's best to handle each one to pick the best. As for accuracy, you'll be surprised with the iron sights, they're capable of 1-2 MOA but it depends on the rifle.