BSA1
member
How about my ding-a-ling;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaEC-lWSlmI
p.s. The 2A is not about sporting use of firearms.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaEC-lWSlmI
p.s. The 2A is not about sporting use of firearms.
Need to stop using the word weapon. What's more appropriate?
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
I don't do it very often but I see a problem in NOT calling them weapons. Political correctness should be scare us more than a word. The 2nd Amendment was not about hunting, clay pigeons or making noise at the local indoor range. It's about "We the people..." protecting ourselves and our liberty from a tyrannical government and you do that with weapons.
breakingcontact
Member
Right. But we can say "defensive firearm" instead of weapon. That language puts us out of the default position of aggressor/attacker and changes the paradigm to one in which we are merely defending ourselves with a weapon, a defensive use of a weapon, of a defensive firearm.
mljdeckard
Member
I don't feel the need to change terminology. It varies depending upon whom I am speaking to. I roll my eyes a little that in an NRA course you aren't allowed to use the word 'weapon'.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
If you want to be politically correct. But is it a "defensive weapon" if you are waging war against your government? Was it a defensive action when the colonials declared war on England? No.
Putting a pretty face on tough issues is a major component of the mess we find ourselves in. Political correctness.
Putting a pretty face on tough issues is a major component of the mess we find ourselves in. Political correctness.
Shawn Dodson
Member
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It's a "weapon" if the intended target is a person or animal. My defense guns and hunting guns are all "weapons".
It's a "firearm" or plain ol' "gun" if it's used for anything else.
It's a "firearm" or plain ol' "gun" if it's used for anything else.
breakingcontact
Member
I don't think us "the gun people" should endeavor to replicate military or police language.
I've talked about the use of other terms on here but to me...the most important one outside of our gun culture is what we call the danged things in the public forum.
I've talked about the use of other terms on here but to me...the most important one outside of our gun culture is what we call the danged things in the public forum.
fanchisimo
Member
One of the definitions I found of weapon is "A thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage." No matter what you shoot: deer, paper, a pile of dirt, you are doing one of those things, so it's an apt description, but that applies to a knife, axe, hammer, rock. Like I said it's all semantics.
6.5x55swedish, I'm not advocating calling them Evil Kill Sticks, but just the same I don't believe weapon is a dirty word. Like some of the others here, the word weapon was hammered in to me in the service, but I tended to use rifle, or pistol. As in the quote above, I think the people who would get upset and influenced about such technicalities are the ones who's mind won't be changed.
r1derbike
Member
Thundersticks.
beatledog7
Member
Here we go again--will it ever stop??
Would you use a word that you know will enflame your spouse just because you like how it sounds? Would you consider not using that word to be cow-towing to him/her? Or would it just be exercising wisdom?
Military personnel are drilled to call their firearms "weapons" because of the role those firearms are meant to play in military life. LEOs may be also, but I think more often they are trained to refer to their carry pistols as "sidearms" and the rest as what they are--shotgun, rifle, etc.
It's certainly true that semantics will never change the mindset of a true gun hater, but we can ratchet back the intensity of the conflict by judicious use of language. We live in a world full of people who would love to take your firearms away--all of them, forever. Every time you call your firearm a "weapon" you fuel their fire. To me, that's the real reason why the NRA teaches its instructors to avoid using the word.
So truly, "weapon" is not a dirty word, but being rationally "politically correct" does have a place in the world of gun ownership.
Would you use a word that you know will enflame your spouse just because you like how it sounds? Would you consider not using that word to be cow-towing to him/her? Or would it just be exercising wisdom?
Military personnel are drilled to call their firearms "weapons" because of the role those firearms are meant to play in military life. LEOs may be also, but I think more often they are trained to refer to their carry pistols as "sidearms" and the rest as what they are--shotgun, rifle, etc.
It's certainly true that semantics will never change the mindset of a true gun hater, but we can ratchet back the intensity of the conflict by judicious use of language. We live in a world full of people who would love to take your firearms away--all of them, forever. Every time you call your firearm a "weapon" you fuel their fire. To me, that's the real reason why the NRA teaches its instructors to avoid using the word.
So truly, "weapon" is not a dirty word, but being rationally "politically correct" does have a place in the world of gun ownership.
JustinJ
Member
"Weapon" is a totally appropriate and accurate term for a gun kept for the purpose of inflicting harm on an attacker. I'm not a fan of playing word games or arguing semantics. It's a straw man argument and does nothing but convince others that one is not reasonable. Advocates of gun control see these kinds of arguments as dodges.
I also think its silly to claim AR15's aren't assault rifles because they lack one additional hole in the receiver.
I also think its silly to claim AR15's aren't assault rifles because they lack one additional hole in the receiver.
weap·on [wep-uh n]
noun
1.
any instrument or device for use in attack or defense in combat, fighting, or war, as a sword, rifle, or cannon.
my conceal carry guns......yes, those are weapons.
my match rifles......i personally consider those sporting equipment.
my other range guns.......i personally consider those Toys (for lack of a better word).
they are all firearms/guns/tools/ what ever you want to call them......
noun
1.
any instrument or device for use in attack or defense in combat, fighting, or war, as a sword, rifle, or cannon.
my conceal carry guns......yes, those are weapons.
my match rifles......i personally consider those sporting equipment.
my other range guns.......i personally consider those Toys (for lack of a better word).
they are all firearms/guns/tools/ what ever you want to call them......
fanchisimo
Member
Honestly, depends on how my wife is acting whether I use inflammatory language. If I get her mad enough, she might just walk away and leave me alone for a while. Lol.
I don't think that we should hide what we do with what we do it with just to appease people. That's what politicians do. Our mission should be education of these people, not the pandering to for if we pander too much, we lose our rights.
A hypothetical situation, if you were to get everyone in the US to stop referring to firearms as weapons, do you think it would change anything? The anti's would say the same thing as I did, it doesn't matter what you call it, it is still the same thing. (in their mind a Evil Kill sticks)
I don't think that we should hide what we do with what we do it with just to appease people. That's what politicians do. Our mission should be education of these people, not the pandering to for if we pander too much, we lose our rights.
A hypothetical situation, if you were to get everyone in the US to stop referring to firearms as weapons, do you think it would change anything? The anti's would say the same thing as I did, it doesn't matter what you call it, it is still the same thing. (in their mind a Evil Kill sticks)
Weapon etymology:
O.E. wæpen "instrument of fighting and defense," from P.Gmc. *wæpnan (cf. O.S. wapan, O.N. vapn, Dan. vaaben, O.Fris. wepin, M.Du. wapen, O.H.G. waffen, Ger. wafen (neut.), waffe (fem.)), from *webno-m, of unknown origin with no cognates outside Gmc.
From Websters Definition of WEAPON
1
: something (as a club, knife, or gun) used to injure, defeat, or destroy
2
: a means of contending against another
So in proper utilization, a firearm becomes a weapon when it is used as such. The term is purposeful, meaning, it does not apply unless and until the purpose is realized.
This can include holding said arms for the purposes of being utilized as a weapon (meets the definition of "a means of contending against another"). A firearm obtained and held for defense of country, life, or liberty, is a weapon, by definition of stated purpose; a means to an end.
O.E. wæpen "instrument of fighting and defense," from P.Gmc. *wæpnan (cf. O.S. wapan, O.N. vapn, Dan. vaaben, O.Fris. wepin, M.Du. wapen, O.H.G. waffen, Ger. wafen (neut.), waffe (fem.)), from *webno-m, of unknown origin with no cognates outside Gmc.
From Websters Definition of WEAPON
1
: something (as a club, knife, or gun) used to injure, defeat, or destroy
2
: a means of contending against another
So in proper utilization, a firearm becomes a weapon when it is used as such. The term is purposeful, meaning, it does not apply unless and until the purpose is realized.
This can include holding said arms for the purposes of being utilized as a weapon (meets the definition of "a means of contending against another"). A firearm obtained and held for defense of country, life, or liberty, is a weapon, by definition of stated purpose; a means to an end.
ConstitutionCowboy
member
Use the word "Arms." That covers the whole gamut and is the language of the Second Amendment. You cannot deny that the keeping and bearing of "arms" is/are that which is not to be infringed. Start calling them something different and you open all kinds of "debate" on the subject. No matter what ever else they are called, they are all under the heading of arms. Call them that.
Let us call that "Constitutional Correctness."
Woody
Let us call that "Constitutional Correctness."
Woody
Actually, "Arms" is much more ambiguous. Not only are we all born with two of them (no really, we are), that word covers a lot of territory.
In fact, the only definitions of ARM(s) which apply to what we're talking about here are verb form (2) "to furnish or equip with weapons" and the attributive noun form "a means (as a weapon) of offense or defense; especially : firearm"
In both cases, the word WEAPON is used to define the meaning of ARM.
The point is - WEAPON is a far more suitable term (it's more decisive), than ARM.
Definition of ARM (1)
1
: a human upper limb; especially : the part between the shoulder and the wrist
2
: something like or corresponding to an arm: as
a : the forelimb of a vertebrate
b : a limb of an invertebrate animal
c : a branch or lateral shoot of a plant
d : a slender part of a structure, machine, or an instrument projecting from a main part, axis, or fulcrum
e : the end of a ship's yard; also : the part of an anchor from the crown to the fluke — see anchor illustration
f : any of the usually two parts of a chromosome lateral to the centromere
3
: an inlet of water (as from the sea)
4
: a narrow extension of a larger area, mass, or group
5
: power, might <the long arm of the law>
6
: a support (as on a chair) for the elbow and forearm
7
: sleeve
8
: the ability to throw or pitch a ball well; also : a player having such ability
9
: a functional division of a group, organization, institution, or activity <the logistical arm of the air force>
— arm·less adjective
— arm·like adjective
— arm in arm
: with arms linked together <walked down the street arm in arm>
2arm verb
Definition of ARM (2)
transitive verb
1
: to furnish or equip with weapons
2
: to furnish with something that strengthens or protects <arming citizens with the right to vote>
3
: to equip or ready for action or operation <arm a bomb>
arm noun, often attributive
Definition of ARM (3)
1
a : a means (as a weapon) of offense or defense; especially : firearm
b : a combat branch (as of an army)
c : an organized branch of national defense (as the navy)
2
plural
a : the hereditary heraldic devices of a family
b : heraldic devices adopted by a government
3
plural
a : active hostilities : warfare <a call to arms>
b : military service
— up in arms
: aroused and ready to undertake a fight or conflict <voters up in arms over the proposed law>
In fact, the only definitions of ARM(s) which apply to what we're talking about here are verb form (2) "to furnish or equip with weapons" and the attributive noun form "a means (as a weapon) of offense or defense; especially : firearm"
In both cases, the word WEAPON is used to define the meaning of ARM.
The point is - WEAPON is a far more suitable term (it's more decisive), than ARM.
Definition of ARM (1)
1
: a human upper limb; especially : the part between the shoulder and the wrist
2
: something like or corresponding to an arm: as
a : the forelimb of a vertebrate
b : a limb of an invertebrate animal
c : a branch or lateral shoot of a plant
d : a slender part of a structure, machine, or an instrument projecting from a main part, axis, or fulcrum
e : the end of a ship's yard; also : the part of an anchor from the crown to the fluke — see anchor illustration
f : any of the usually two parts of a chromosome lateral to the centromere
3
: an inlet of water (as from the sea)
4
: a narrow extension of a larger area, mass, or group
5
: power, might <the long arm of the law>
6
: a support (as on a chair) for the elbow and forearm
7
: sleeve
8
: the ability to throw or pitch a ball well; also : a player having such ability
9
: a functional division of a group, organization, institution, or activity <the logistical arm of the air force>
— arm·less adjective
— arm·like adjective
— arm in arm
: with arms linked together <walked down the street arm in arm>
2arm verb
Definition of ARM (2)
transitive verb
1
: to furnish or equip with weapons
2
: to furnish with something that strengthens or protects <arming citizens with the right to vote>
3
: to equip or ready for action or operation <arm a bomb>
arm noun, often attributive
Definition of ARM (3)
1
a : a means (as a weapon) of offense or defense; especially : firearm
b : a combat branch (as of an army)
c : an organized branch of national defense (as the navy)
2
plural
a : the hereditary heraldic devices of a family
b : heraldic devices adopted by a government
3
plural
a : active hostilities : warfare <a call to arms>
b : military service
— up in arms
: aroused and ready to undertake a fight or conflict <voters up in arms over the proposed law>
Coincidentally, the definition of "firearm" also contains the word weapon as part of it's definition;
Mirriam-Websters
Definition of FIREARM
: a weapon from which a shot is discharged by gunpowder —usually used of small arms
Dictionary.com:
fire·arm [fahyuh r-ahrm]
noun
a small arms weapon, as a rifle or pistol, from which a projectile is fired by gunpowder.
To convince myself this wasn't some modern revisionist magic, I also dusted off a 1953 Websters from my library:
Mirriam-Websters
Definition of FIREARM
: a weapon from which a shot is discharged by gunpowder —usually used of small arms
Dictionary.com:
fire·arm [fahyuh r-ahrm]
noun
a small arms weapon, as a rifle or pistol, from which a projectile is fired by gunpowder.
To convince myself this wasn't some modern revisionist magic, I also dusted off a 1953 Websters from my library:
Well technically "weapon" applies to all of my guns, because I won't get a gun unless it's generally considered useful for self defense. I don't own any target pistols, practice guns, hunting weapons, sporting guns, or race guns.
That said, "firearm" is the most precise answer. "Tool" is what I would have suggested, but that word makes it sound like there's no room for fun.
That said, "firearm" is the most precise answer. "Tool" is what I would have suggested, but that word makes it sound like there's no room for fun.
DammitBoy
Member
I prefer "bloodthirsty death machines" that I have to restrain from causing bedlam...
beatledog7
Member
I can go with "arms" or "firearms" for the all-inclusive, and I can go with "weapon" for a firearm that is actually fulfilling a weapon role. Likewise, I can go with "weapon" for a paper clip if someone tries to blind me with one.
Note that in Trent's definition of "weapon" (Post #40), it can readily be inferred that by "against another" the editors at Webster mean another person. So your trusty deer and varmint rifles, as long as you only shoot non-humans with them, are not weapons by that definition.
My CCW is a weapon (it's part of the term). An infantryman's M-16 is a weapon. A LEO's sidearm is a weapon. The shotgun by my bed is a weapon. All of these are actively fulfilling a weapon role in that they are ready and intended for last-resort use against another person. For me, a safe full of these things contains firearms, not weapons, because they are not actively filling any particular role while they are in the safe.
This part is debatable and a matter of one's personal perspective; if a person wants to say that any firearm he owns and holds for defense against tyranny is a weapon, regardless of its right-now condition of readiness, then I'm gonna have to say ok to that. It's not my preferred term for such a firearm, but it is certainly 2A compatible. Of course, if you actually do have to use your walnut-stocked .243 to fend off zombies or an invading army, then it's a weapon, clearly.
To say that every firearm is always a weapon defies the intended use concept that is so clearly called for by any rational definition of the word. To use the term during an NRA class is a violation of policy.
Note that in Trent's definition of "weapon" (Post #40), it can readily be inferred that by "against another" the editors at Webster mean another person. So your trusty deer and varmint rifles, as long as you only shoot non-humans with them, are not weapons by that definition.
My CCW is a weapon (it's part of the term). An infantryman's M-16 is a weapon. A LEO's sidearm is a weapon. The shotgun by my bed is a weapon. All of these are actively fulfilling a weapon role in that they are ready and intended for last-resort use against another person. For me, a safe full of these things contains firearms, not weapons, because they are not actively filling any particular role while they are in the safe.
This part is debatable and a matter of one's personal perspective; if a person wants to say that any firearm he owns and holds for defense against tyranny is a weapon, regardless of its right-now condition of readiness, then I'm gonna have to say ok to that. It's not my preferred term for such a firearm, but it is certainly 2A compatible. Of course, if you actually do have to use your walnut-stocked .243 to fend off zombies or an invading army, then it's a weapon, clearly.
To say that every firearm is always a weapon defies the intended use concept that is so clearly called for by any rational definition of the word. To use the term during an NRA class is a violation of policy.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
The word "weapon" implies purpose; it is a description of a role, not any particular item.
According to most polls I've seen, by far the #1 purpose for which Americans own guns, is as defensive weapons, followed by target and sport shooting in second place, hunting in third place, and collecting a very distant fourth.
Firearms owned for defensive purposes and/or hunting are "weapons" by any reasonable definition. Raceguns, specialized target guns, and specialized skeet/clays guns may fall outside that definition, but that's not what most of us own. Most of my firearms *are* weapons.
Looking around the world, casting all firearms in the role of "sporting tools" (as gun owners did in the UK, Australia, and Canada) backfired badly. I personally don't think that approach is helpful.
According to most polls I've seen, by far the #1 purpose for which Americans own guns, is as defensive weapons, followed by target and sport shooting in second place, hunting in third place, and collecting a very distant fourth.
Firearms owned for defensive purposes and/or hunting are "weapons" by any reasonable definition. Raceguns, specialized target guns, and specialized skeet/clays guns may fall outside that definition, but that's not what most of us own. Most of my firearms *are* weapons.
Looking around the world, casting all firearms in the role of "sporting tools" (as gun owners did in the UK, Australia, and Canada) backfired badly. I personally don't think that approach is helpful.
^This. I agree 100%.
Not quite sure I agree with this.
In nature, claws, teeth, and other devices for defense or attack are considered "weapons" (there's actually another dictionary that specifically breaks that item out in to a separate definition).
A tool used to take or protect a life (natural or artificial) is a weapon. This includes feet, hands, elbows, teeth, and to a large degree, the brain.
As an instance, when my stepfather attacked me back in 1995, he rushed at me from the yard while I was standing in the street. I sidestepped at the last minute leaving my foot out, he got a face full of asphalt and lost enough steam for me to get the upper hand on him. (He was a semi-pro hockey player, played for the Peoria Rivermen, and I was an 18 year old 6'0", 125 lbs bean pole - who happened to have 10 years of martial arts training..)
The asphalt in the street was my weapon in that instance. Followed immediately by other natural weapons until the cops showed up to put an end to it. By that point I'd managed to retain the upper hand; they thought I was the aggressor and I got a night stick to the back of the head. Those are another weapon, and they really, really hurt.
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