Never understood the need to carry a DA/SA pistol in Condition One.

[stchman]

Recently completed my CCW class and the instructor and I agreed 100%. Carrying a gun CCW in condition one is not a good idea. He and I agree that for a CCW gun DAO is your best bet. Consistent trigger pull is the reasoning.

Also to the 1911 folks, carrying in condition one is probably not a good thing as under a stressful situation motor skills deteriorate and the action of taking a gun from the holster AND sweeping a safety off not good. The less you need to do the better off you will be.

Reason being that I got a DAO LCP for CCW. I want to be able to pull the pistol and pull the trigger. No need to fumble mess with trying to flip a safety off.

I know I probably just started a flame war, but just wanting to get some opinions. As I said this is not just MY opinion but the opinion of a CCW instructor who is also a police officer.

 

[RevolvingCylinder]

It doesn't matter what the safety/trigger set up is. You should be trained enough where you can instinctively operate the handgun. Stress won't matter if you can operate with muscle memory and without conscious thought about it.

The same could be said to be safe and accurate with a DAO pistol. How many poorly trained people have had NDs with a DAO?

That is what training is about, which incidentally, is more important than the equipment.

 

[stchman]

Agreed about training, but training and a DAO pistol.

We can all sit around and theorize about yes we can 100% perfectly operate our CCW pistols. Until we have been faced with a situation of life and death we are never going to know if we will have excellent motor skills.

I prefer that if I get into a life and death situation I want my firearm to be as simple as possible.

 

[PO2Hammer]

You can just as easily short stroke a DAO pistol or revolver as you can fumble with a safety on a 1911.
I have a 1911, revolver and a Glock, I like the Glock with a NY-1 trigger spring for self defense for it's simplicity and strong trigger reset.

 

[sidheshooter]

Train and document. Repeat. Carry anything with a decent track record that you want.

With the exception of the CZ-75 type guns or the random old Taurus, I'm probably not going to be interested in condition one carry of DA/SA guns either...

But we'll have to agree to disagree about the 1911-type platform; I think that they can be great personal defense weapons. I don't think that's just me, either...

 

[9mmepiphany]

You can just as easily short stroke a DAO pistol or revolver as you can fumble with a safety on a 1911.

how does one "short-stroke" a DAO pistol for the first shot...which would be a direct comparison to the only time you would "fumble with a saftey on a 1911"

 

[bdb benzino]

Ya, you just started a sh#% storm. Run for cover.

I am also gonna have to disagree, I would do a little more research before going on nation wide forum with many experts and declaring that 1911 is unsafe now that you carry a DAO.
Don't missunderstand me, I also carry DAO most of the time, but I also love the simplicity of the 1911 trigger. Sweet carry guns as well.

 

[rcmodel]

The whole "Forgot to take the safety off" BS makes me laugh.

Anyone with a lick of 1911 experiance would be as likely to forget the safety as Wild Bill would have been to forget to thumb cock his single-action Colts in a gun fight.

You don't need to remember it, or think about it, or depend on fine motor skills.
It just happens when the gun comes up on target.

rc

 

[Vonderek]

Under stress you react as you've trained. It's all muscle memory. Sweeping off a thumb safety as you draw is really not an impediment if that's how you've trained. After carrying a 1911 for some time my thumb instinctively tries to thumb off a safety regardless what I am shooting...Glock, Hi Power, whatever.

 

[MCgunner]

If I carried a SA gun, it'd be condition one. I have DA guns, though, hammer down, ready to fire DA. My P90 has a decocker only, same manual of arms as a Sig.

Your instructor isn't necessarily an expert, just a guy like me that went and took the course to get qualified to make money teaching the CCW course. He has his opinions, I have mine.

 

[mothermopar]

So if a 1911 shouldn't be carried condition 1 because you may fumble or forget to disengage the thumb safety... should a 1911 be carried without a round in the chamber, thus forcing one to rack the slide (a much more involved maneuver)???

Sorry, but this is poor rationale.

If you carry a gun, ANY gun, you BETTER be 100% familiar with its operation and have trained enough so that fine motor skills (such as sweeping off a thumb safety) are not fumbled or forgotten. Period.

Rationalizing otherwise is silly and dangerous in itself.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

That one marine that killed a substore robber that had to reload after killing the first guy said that he didn't remember much of it but he was carrying a subcompact 1911 Cond. 1 and he didn't remember swiping the safety off, it was instinct. I'll be happy carrying Cond. 1

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

You and your range officer have arrived at a very good idea....for you. For some of us, your carry methods and reasoning are not what we choose to do. You may think that we are foolish, dangerous, or ill informed, and since we have a society that allows us to differ, then that is o.k. To get on a forum, and to advocate an idea is fine. I'm going to let you do what you want, and if you don't mind, I'll carry cocked and locked on an SA auto, still keep my DA/SA autos, and might even carry my CZ-75 (DA/SA) cocked and locked on occasion. If you ever get to know me, or see me at the range or carrying about, then you'll start to see that I am not a threat to your safety unless you are up to no good. PS: I've been a competitive shooter, police and range officer, and handgunner for 44 years, so not all cops or range instructors agree, either.

 

[Pizzagunner]

Recently completed my CCW class and the instructor and I agreed 100%. Carrying a gun CCW in condition one is not a good idea. He and I agree that for a CCW gun DAO is your best bet. Consistent trigger pull is the reasoning.

Also to the 1911 folks, carrying in condition one is probably not a good thing as under a stressful situation motor skills deteriorate and the action of taking a gun from the holster AND sweeping a safety off not good. The less you need to do the better off you will be.

Reason being that I got a DAO LCP for CCW. I want to be able to pull the pistol and pull the trigger. No need to fumble mess with trying to flip a safety off.

I know I probably just started a flame war, but just wanting to get some opinions. As I said this is not just MY opinion but the opinion of a CCW instructor who is also a police officer.

I gotta hand it to you, both you and the cop have it all figgered out for the lowest common denominator who don't want to train all that much.

 

[WC145]

Recently completed my CCW class and the instructor and I agreed 100%. Carrying a gun CCW in condition one is not a good idea. He and I agree that for a CCW gun DAO is your best bet. Consistent trigger pull is the reasoning.

Also to the 1911 folks, carrying in condition one is probably not a good thing as under a stressful situation motor skills deteriorate and the action of taking a gun from the holster AND sweeping a safety off not good. The less you need to do the better off you will be.

Regardless of what you and your CCW instructor think, the answer here is not dumbing down your weaponry for "safety" or one platform being "better" than another, it is training. Proper, consistent training and you can master anything. I practice with my gun so that the use of it is second nature, releasing it from it's security holster, disengaging the safety, all of it is a natural smooth movement. I practice with dummy rounds so that I am comfortable if there is a malfunction. I practice mag changes so that they are smooth and positive so I can stay in the fight.

I carry a 1911 on duty and off, nothing out there has a better, more consistent trigger pull and people have been remembering to sweep off the safety under the stress of battle for 100 years. Thanks for the advice but I think I'll stick with my choice.

 

[stchman]

I never said that people that carry SA in condition 1 are unsafe, dangerous, or foolish.

I knew that this would degenerate in to this. You people can carry your guns down the front of your pants with only the belt holding it for all I care.

Is the 1911 some sort of Holy Grail of pistols?

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Not to be critical but it appears the OP has limited experience and is lacking an informed opinion.

For the average person, one who doesn't invest the time and effort to master the manual of arms of his/her defense pistol, DAO is probably the best choice. But these kinds of people would be better served by a DA revolver as they don't have to become proficient in quickly clearing stoppages, in the event a stoppage happens during a defensive shooting.

Train until everything you need to do is ingrained as second nature and doesn't require conscious decision-making. You just do it. By the time the pistol has reached the retention position of the draw stroke the manual safety should be disengaged and ready to fire. Disengaging the manual safety is a conditioned reflex.

There were several times I drew down on suspects while on patrol. I didn't think about it. My gun "just appeared" in my hand, manual safety disengaged, pointed at the bad guy. The pistol was a Beretta 96 .40 S&W.

Cheers!

 

[IlikeSA]

I gotta be honest, I used to have to carry in a level 3 holster as a police officer. You had to press a button, pop a snap, and rock it to get the pistol out. We practiced so much, that I could draw as fast as I could with a regular non-level holster. I knew one guy who could draw from that holster so quick you couldn't even see the motions he went through. It's all about training.

That said, I've trained hard with my 1911. It's the pistol I shoot best. I prefer single action triggers, and have always hated DA. I'll stick with what I like and what I've trained on.

 

[WC145]

I never said that people that carry SA in condition 1 are unsafe, dangerous, or foolish.

I knew that this would degenerate in to this. You people can carry your guns down the front of your pants with only the belt holding it for all I care.

You post your "the all that ends all" revelation from your CCW class on a site frequented by gun people with years and years of varied experience - cops, competitors, instructors - and you expect it to just be accepted as fact? Like the rest of us are suddenly going to say "Wow, I never thought of that".
Clearly you didn't put much thought into this because your post is akin to saying all cars should have automatic transmissions because clutches are dangerous, somebody might forget to press it when shifting under the stress of driving.:banghead:

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I used to have to carry in a level 3 holster as a police officer.

Bingo! I carried my Beretta 96 in a Safariland #0705 SSIII level 3 holster. I know exactly what you're talking about, except I just pushed straight down with my thumb to unseat the pistol. I found it much quicker than rocking the gun.

 

[stchman]

With all due respect to all.

I practice and actually shoot my guns more than your average LEO does. Most LEOs shoot just enough to keep a qualification. I go to the range quite a bit and practice shooting.

Just because someone is military or police does not AUTOMATICALLY make them a seasoned firearm expert who's opinion should be taken as gospel.

That said there are quite a few LEOs or military that are excellent shots.

 

[sidheshooter]

Is the 1911 some sort of Holy Grail of pistols?

Now that you mention it, a case can be made...

 

[Pizzagunner]

You agreed with an "authority," a LEO of unknown training or interest level and then presumed to lecture both DA/SA fans about "consistent triggers" and 1911 shooters about the hazards of Condition One based upon your circular appeal to "authority."

Speaking as a DA/SA fan, my pistols have a consistent trigger. The first shot is always DA, with known characteristics and the follow on shots are always SA, again with known characteristics. Neither is a problem because both are trained for as a "consistent" system, not dreaded as some heinous "inconsistency."

And forgetting to wipe the safety off on a 1911 is like forgetting to breathe for the folks who choose to train with one, it's that automatic.

Then you have the temerity to state that you carry an underpowered and difficult to hit with CCW primary. You just might "fumble" that whole flippin' firearm under stress.

The presumption in your posts is exactly why you are getting dogged.

 

[Mr.Davis]

I know I probably just started a flame war, but just wanting to get some opinions. As I said this is not just MY opinion but the opinion of a CCW instructor who is also a police officer.

I never said that people that carry SA in condition 1 are unsafe, dangerous, or foolish.

I knew that this would degenerate in to this. You people can carry your guns down the front of your pants with only the belt holding it for all I care.

Why did you get so defensive? I don't see any posts here that were particularly rude or disrespectful (at least no more than your own).

I guess I don't see why you started this thread, since you solicited opinions, then treated the dissent as some sort of personal insult. The offense taken by some in this thread is because you've completed one CCW class, then marched in and informed them that, and I quote:

Also to the 1911 folks, carrying in condition one is probably not a good thing as under a stressful situation motor skills deteriorate and the action of taking a gun from the holster AND sweeping a safety off not good. The less you need to do the better off you will be.

That statement could come off as condescending and offensive to those who train to effectively use a 1911 for self-defense. The responses here aren't so much about defending the 1911 as they are a reaction to your post's content and tone.

This 71 year old ex-marine didn't have any trouble remembering to deactivate his 1911's safety, even under extreme stress: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_4_33/ai_n31877381/

I lean towards "simple is good" myself, so I carry a Springfield XD, which is DAO (depending on who you ask). But I'm sure not going to criticize the 1911 guys for making their own well-informed choice.

 

[Red Cent]

I agree with RCmodel and WC145. The OP apparently does not have experience with a 1911 nor does he grasp training the subconscious. Most of "slabside" users who have trained, practiced, and competed will present the pistol quickly in a two handed grasp and I will guarantee the safety will be off and we will not remember doing it. Constantly trained muscle memory does not forget. The OP must have a big smile on his face and a big spoon in his hand or he is.......well, uninformed.