Never understood the need to carry a DA/SA pistol in Condition One.
- Thread starter stchman
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Hey man, you stepped in "it" and knew you were stepping in it before you stepped in it but stepped in it anyway. Don't whine now about how bad it stinks!
Sorry sir, but I will continue to carry what I prefer and what I am most familiar with. You can't paint me with the broad brush that implies all 1911 shooters are dinosaurs and Glock haters. For I had double action autos and Glocks looooong before my first 1911. I just found that the 1911 fits me better and that I am far more willing to spend the time with the platform to get proficient with it than any other. As with most things, the most important tool is between your ears, not between your hands.
How about you carry what you want and I'll carry what I want?
Fleetman
Member
That's ok stchman, we've got your back. While you're plinking away at the BG with your .380, we'll stop the threat with a 1911. I own a LCP and carry it when dress code doesn't allow for anything larger but my preferences are a 1911 or Keltec PF9. My 1911's are as safe as they come and I have practiced swiping off the safety many times....I don't feel I will be incapacitated when the time comes. DAO auto's/revolvers are great and I own quite a few.....carry options are what you practice with.
I'm not flaming you here either but realize each "instructor" has their own preference and, until you are more experienced carrying, probably feels you are better off carrying a DAO firearm....I know I did when I first began carrying.
I'm not flaming you here either but realize each "instructor" has their own preference and, until you are more experienced carrying, probably feels you are better off carrying a DAO firearm....I know I did when I first began carrying.
TrickyDick
Member
Well, personally, I do carry a Full-sized 1911 as my CCW. (yes, laugh, it's to the point where the barrel is rubbing holes into my jeans) But I load one in the chamber, then slowly lower the hammer. I feel that it is safer, and a bit more comfortable with the hammer down. In a quick instance I can pull the hammer and fire a round than moving the safety instead. Some could argue differently, but its what works best for me.
Man you are gonna get roasted you'll be roasted by people with a lot of experience and you'll be roasted by people who have never carried in there life. The important thing is to practice your method a lot make it second hand nature and dont be afraid to take advice. The people that practice condition 1 diligently are much safer than those that use condition 2 or 3 and very seldom if ever practice, its kind of whatever gives you peace of mind and you can make second nature youtube is your friend there are a lot of great video's there and even more bad ones just do what makes you comfortable and practice practice practice! Davis is right dont start out so defensive and an XD technically is not a dao gun lol.
OP
OP
stchman
Member
No I did not blindly assume that since the CCW instructor is an LEO that he MUST be a firearms expert.
I ACTUALLY read his qualifications BEFORE I took the class. I could have paid anyone $$$$$ to give me a CCW certificate, I wanted someone that had much experience in this field.
LEO - not automatically assumed firearms expert.
LEO +
Certified National Rifle Association Police Firearms Instructor, Received Top Marksmanship Honors
Certified National Rifle Association Law Enforcement Rifle Instructor, Received Top Marksmanship Honors
Graduate of St. Louis County Police Certified Firearms Instructor Program
Factory Certified Glock Pistol Instructor
International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors Member
Member - National Tactical Officer Association
Life Member of the National Rifle Association
Certified Live Fire Shoot House Instructor
Factory Certified SIMUNITION Training Scenario Instructor
Police Trainer for Active Shooter Incidents
Firearm Training System Graduate – (FATS)
Advanced Patrol Tactics Instructor
Ohio Advanced Law Enforcement Training Center Graduate
Tactical Officer Survival Skills Graduate
Pressure Point Control Training Instructor
Expandable Baton Instructor, Mace / Incapacitants Instructor
Less Lethal Force Training Instructor, Certified TASER Instructor
After all this I can safely assume he is a knows about firearms, CCW, and other data associated with self defense / personal defense. After all that I should have said "you are FOS, 1911s are the BEST CCW out there"!!!!!!!!
I have a friend that served in the military (Army) and he does not know JACK about firearms. Call mags clips and does not even know how to break down firearms. If someone said he was ex-military then there would be a huge amount of people that would assume him to be a firearms expert!!!!!
I ACTUALLY read his qualifications BEFORE I took the class. I could have paid anyone $$$$$ to give me a CCW certificate, I wanted someone that had much experience in this field.
LEO - not automatically assumed firearms expert.
LEO +
Certified National Rifle Association Police Firearms Instructor, Received Top Marksmanship Honors
Certified National Rifle Association Law Enforcement Rifle Instructor, Received Top Marksmanship Honors
Graduate of St. Louis County Police Certified Firearms Instructor Program
Factory Certified Glock Pistol Instructor
International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors Member
Member - National Tactical Officer Association
Life Member of the National Rifle Association
Certified Live Fire Shoot House Instructor
Factory Certified SIMUNITION Training Scenario Instructor
Police Trainer for Active Shooter Incidents
Firearm Training System Graduate – (FATS)
Advanced Patrol Tactics Instructor
Ohio Advanced Law Enforcement Training Center Graduate
Tactical Officer Survival Skills Graduate
Pressure Point Control Training Instructor
Expandable Baton Instructor, Mace / Incapacitants Instructor
Less Lethal Force Training Instructor, Certified TASER Instructor
After all this I can safely assume he is a knows about firearms, CCW, and other data associated with self defense / personal defense. After all that I should have said "you are FOS, 1911s are the BEST CCW out there"!!!!!!!!
I have a friend that served in the military (Army) and he does not know JACK about firearms. Call mags clips and does not even know how to break down firearms. If someone said he was ex-military then there would be a huge amount of people that would assume him to be a firearms expert!!!!!
Striker fired semi-autos are often marketed as DAO because the striker is only partially cocked to the rear, and the first part of the trigger pull completely pulls back the striker, then releases it.
Most civic authorities don't want their police carrying single action pistols...some old police trade-in revolvers have their hammers filed down so they can't be fired in single action mode. Therefore, companies like Glock, S&W, and Springfield market their pistols as DAO so as not to scare the bureaucrats.
In my amateur opinion, the XD is closer to SAO than DAO, but like I said, it depends on who you ask. Interestingly enough, Springfield's website is quiet on the matter.
Ratdog68
Member
Just because you have an opinion, and that you can name an instructor who agrees with you... and that your opinion shows up "first" in this thread... does not invalidate the opinions of others who do not agree with you and yours.
When I carry an autoloader, it's of a 1911 design (my preference) and I always carry cocked and locked. When I carry a wheel gun, it's always that of a S&W design. I don't mix platforms with the types of guns I carry. My training/muscle memory can just kick in and I don't have to stop and "think" about which platform I carry.
If my choice of platform doesn't suit your tastes/comfort level, then, by all means... carry what's best for you. May I suggest that you remain "consistent" in your platform?
I chose what I like and, as such, do not own a Glock, or a Colt revolver, or some other "mix" which is inconsistent with what I train with... that doesn't mean I do not like Colt revolvers, or do not have an appreciation of them.
killchain
Member
Yes. Anyone who talks bad about a 1911 gets shot down quickly here. No pun intended.
And yes, I am one of those "carry DA" guys, which is why I don't choose a 1911 style. But that's just how I roll, do what you like as long as you do it right.
RebelRabbi
Member
- Joined
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You and your Instructor have sound reasoning. Simple is better.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
All of which lends plenty of credibility to his opinion but it is still opinion.
Back in the early '70's, Chrysler products had a little "paddle" over the ignition key that you had to sweep with your finger to lock the steering column and withdraw the key. If you owned one it became second nature to just sweep it with your extended thumb when you turned off the ignition. A buddy had a '72 340 'Cuda, one day he was passing a car on a 2-lane and the throttle stuck. He tried tapping the throttle to unstick it, all he accomplished was to stick it down further with the carburetor secondary butterflies open. It also kicked down into second gear when he did that. He reached down, switched off the ignition, and you guessed it, muscle memory kicked in and he swept the paddle that locked the steering column. Now he was accelerating in second gear with a stuck throttle AND a locked steering wheel! He managed to unlock it in time to avoid the nasty crash but I will never question whether an action practiced enough can become so automatic that you can't make yourself NOT do it, even if your life depends on it.
Operating the safety on a SAO is the same way. If you do it every single time you present your arm and you practice that enough you won't even know you swept the safety off.
Operating the safety on a SAO is the same way. If you do it every single time you present your arm and you practice that enough you won't even know you swept the safety off.
Loyalist Dave
Member
I'm not knocking the instructor's creds, but you don't seem to understand them...,
He may be God's gift to LEO instruction, or not. The above resume sounds impressive, but by itself as you present it, it means very little when talking CCW. Some of it doesn't apply at all.
You also wrote this,
You further rest your premis on the "fumbling for the safety" theory, well one does not need to fire an actual round to train to immediately draw, engage, and sweep the safety to the off position, so the amount of rounds fired is not necessarily a good measure of the skill in the first place.
and then there is this,
LD
Means he shoots well, and is certified to teach LEO's about firearms in police situations. Doesn't mean he's expert on CCW.
Again, he is qualified to teach LEO's about rifles, and he shoots very well.
You can gradualte with a 4.0 or a much lower grade, and still be "certified". Again, he is certified to teach LEO's.
Well then of course he's been taught that the Glock style of pistol is far superior because it is "safer" than the 1911A1. It is, after all, the Glock Safe Action, is it not?
OK so he's an LEO instructor, and paid to be a member of the organization. Doesn't point to expertise.
Again, does not point to expertise, any more than if one joins the international federation of chess masters and enthusiasts one is not necessarily a chess master.
So is my neighbor, who is also blind. So what?
This means that the company that certifies LEO instructors on a "clearing house" has him certified. This is normally for SWAT teams and sometimes for patrol officers that enter "hot". This does not lend itself to CCW training.
This means he instructs officers on human vs. human encouters in police scenarios. I have completed the same training. Great for cops and cop gear. Not for CCW.
An "active shooter incident" is a Columbine or other populated area scenario. Police again roll in "hot" and it has nothing to do with CCW.
This is a LASER simulater, again for patrol officers and duty belts, not civilian CCW.
Again, LEO, not CCW training. I would doubt that it has cross training on other weapons systems outside what the Ohio LEO's carry, or perhaps even what the individuals participating carry.
Still not CCW training.
This means he has passed the course in PPC training, much more hand-to-hand martial arts, which is how one gets compliance below the level of lethal force, and has zero to do with handgun CCW.
Has nothing to do with handguns or CCW
He may be God's gift to LEO instruction, or not. The above resume sounds impressive, but by itself as you present it, it means very little when talking CCW. Some of it doesn't apply at all.
You also wrote this,
Which I have often heard, but ya know, it's a myth until somebody actually does a study and really finds out what LEO's shoot, and how often. Strangly, nobody is ever able to note the study, or when it was done, etc etc.
You further rest your premis on the "fumbling for the safety" theory, well one does not need to fire an actual round to train to immediately draw, engage, and sweep the safety to the off position, so the amount of rounds fired is not necessarily a good measure of the skill in the first place.
and then there is this,
If the above is your true belief, then you should omit having to deal with stovepipes, failures to feed, and double feeds, and let us know what kind of revolver you are going to carry. After all, it is much simpler, and if that's what your instructor taught you, he should've immediately recommended a revolver to you.
LD
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"CCW instructor who is also a police officer" Having been an instructor and having worked with police officers I can assure you that those qualifications alone DO NOT make him an expert. The most frightening gun handling I ever saw and the most times I had muzzles swung on me and others and the few occassions I actually had bullets unintentionally fired very close to my body parts were police officers. Every single time. I'm not bashing here, it's not their fault, it is their level of training. People should not assume that LEOs are experts with firearms. They should be but usually are not.:banghead:
I prefer the operating controls of this pistol, a Walther P5 to a M1911. There is no external safety. You chamber a round, hit the decocker, and fire the first shot double action. I suppose you could try to thumb cock the thing.
Unlike a M1911, when the hammer is forward the firing pin is moved out of the way. And there is a firing pin block. Unless you pull the trigger, which is equal to a double action revolver pull, the gun is not going to fire.
And there is no thumb safety to forget to take off.
There is something else about the external safety of the M1911 that can gum things up in a fight. Anyone ever taken a Thunder Ranch combat class? Clint makes you ride the thumb safety on a M1911, so you don’t accidentally bump it up.
I thought such an event remote, yet the end of June I was banging away with powder puff loads in my Les Bauer Wadcutter.
I switched to ball to blow out the lead. The increased recoil surprised me, really moved the gun in my hand. The greater surprise was that I could not get the next shot off, the recoil had moved the pistol enough that my thumb had pushed the safety up, locking the pistol. I did not notice what happened till I pulled the trigger. Glad I was playing.
Who is to say that in rough bump and tumble that your hand won’t accidentally push the safety on? Maybe the perpetrator is grappling with you, pushing on your face, your hand, and you are trying to get yourself and the gun clear for a shot.
Removing the external safety removes two potential failure modes. First one is inadvertent safety on for first shot, the second is inadvertent safety on for following shots.
The M1911 is a great gun to play with. There are better designs for self protection.
Unlike a M1911, when the hammer is forward the firing pin is moved out of the way. And there is a firing pin block. Unless you pull the trigger, which is equal to a double action revolver pull, the gun is not going to fire.
And there is no thumb safety to forget to take off.
There is something else about the external safety of the M1911 that can gum things up in a fight. Anyone ever taken a Thunder Ranch combat class? Clint makes you ride the thumb safety on a M1911, so you don’t accidentally bump it up.
I thought such an event remote, yet the end of June I was banging away with powder puff loads in my Les Bauer Wadcutter.
I switched to ball to blow out the lead. The increased recoil surprised me, really moved the gun in my hand. The greater surprise was that I could not get the next shot off, the recoil had moved the pistol enough that my thumb had pushed the safety up, locking the pistol. I did not notice what happened till I pulled the trigger. Glad I was playing.
Who is to say that in rough bump and tumble that your hand won’t accidentally push the safety on? Maybe the perpetrator is grappling with you, pushing on your face, your hand, and you are trying to get yourself and the gun clear for a shot.
Removing the external safety removes two potential failure modes. First one is inadvertent safety on for first shot, the second is inadvertent safety on for following shots.
The M1911 is a great gun to play with. There are better designs for self protection.
SharpsDressedMan
member
1911 - Holy Grail? It made me think of the comments that Jeff Cooper got when acting as a guest instructor to the FBI back in the early 1970's. After demonstrating just how EFFECTIVE the 1911 .45 was, with few mods, and elevated skill, the FBI in attendance chided him with, "Using THAT is not fair" or some such, regarding using an auto pistol to "clean their clocks" in speed, accuracy, reloading, etc. Cooper chuckled and said, "That is exactly what you want in a gunfight...a weapon that the other guy (sic) feels is "not fair". Carry whatever you want, but when you get good, and you take your competency to the level that you can handle and master the SA auto, it makes it very hard for people to "beat" you on the same drill. Ultimately, isn't that what it is all about?
nitetrane98
Member
I think you've got a lot of damn gall to come out out and insinuate that your method is any better than another. Obviously you're not trained with a SA pistol. That's fine with me. Shoot your DAO pistol till your heart's content. But to justify your reasoning by dismissing a SA as inferior is rediculous. It's all about training. There's a better chance of my mouth failing to open for a piece of filet mignon on a fork than there is for me to "forget " or fail to swipe a safety off my 1911.
What you are doing is commonly known as projection. You think that you might screw the pooch bringing a SA pistol into action therefore everybody else must also screw the pooch. Since your remedy for screwing the pooch is to not use a SA, it must also be the best remedy for everyone else.
What you are doing is commonly known as projection. You think that you might screw the pooch bringing a SA pistol into action therefore everybody else must also screw the pooch. Since your remedy for screwing the pooch is to not use a SA, it must also be the best remedy for everyone else.
nitetrane98
Member
And somehow this is relavant to CC discussion? Gee, I was shooting powderpuff loads in my game gun and when I used full power loads it was different. Golly, yah reckon? Wow, just the other day I was shoooting some .38 spl in my 8" Trooper. I put some DT 158 gr .357 magnum loads in and it kicked a whole lot harder. I'm glad I was just plinking.
Guillermo
member
is there another way to carry a 1911 style pistol other than condition 1?
Condition 1
I don't like DA triggers
I don't own a 1911, but I still think they are great guns
Everyone is right its training
I am assuming if you have a DA gun you carry with one in the chamber so a rack of the slide is not required, so an accidental catch of the trigger on something would fire it.
No thanks cocked and locked.
I don't like DA triggers
I don't own a 1911, but I still think they are great guns
Everyone is right its training
I am assuming if you have a DA gun you carry with one in the chamber so a rack of the slide is not required, so an accidental catch of the trigger on something would fire it.
No thanks cocked and locked.
I'll be sure to pass that along to our local retired detective, who also happened to be a firearms instructor for the local PD.
'Course, he did carry his Glock "down the front of his pants with only the belt holding it" before he had slight problem.
Seems he and friends were at a local eatery aftering attending a funeral-he got up from the table, reached to cinch his pants, and...
The result? 6 patrons wounded by flying shrapnel as his gun discharged into the floor.
The upshot is some of the guys at the local gun shop had warned him what could happen Mexican carrying a Glock!
So much for being an LEO and instructor qualifying one as the final word...
EDIT: As a former long time 1911 user, I now carry an XDSC, but find every time I pull my XD from the holster, my thumb still automatically goes into a swiping motion.
dmazur
Member
Well, I read that, and then I read about Jeff Cooper and the FBI, and there really isn't much left to say.
Maybe a quote from "The Modern Technique of the Pistol" -
The presentation consists of five steps. These steps separate the major components, yet avoid undue complexity. While the presentation must be somewhat mechanical during the initial learning phase so that each step can be programmed precisely, it should develop into a continuous motion. Once perfected, it is fluid, without unnecessary movement...
1.GRIP...
2.CLEAR...
3.CLICK...
4.SMACK...
5.LOOK...
The CLICK step includes advancing the pistol towards the target and disengaging the safety, and is an integral part of learning to use the pistol. As others have said, this becomes "muscle memory".
I'm not sure the 1911 qualifies as a "Holy Grail", but it has proven to be a very difficult design to beat in practical shooting competitions designed to simulate defensive shooting.
Proper appreciation of the design may require some effort, and not everyone is inclined to expend effort. Thus the 1911 has its detractors.
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