New assault on open carry

[JRH6856]

There is no reason to open carry in a school unless you are a uniformed officer on official police business period.

Thank you for your personal opinion.

 

[smalls]

There is no reason to open carry in a school unless you are a uniformed officer on official police business period.

Defense of my own life isn't reason enough for you?

What makes a cop so much more special than me? People act as if every single cop ever is 100% law abiding.

And no one has yet to answer why schools are so special regarding this issue.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Getting back to the subject at hand if someone unknown & unannounced walks into a school openly armed just because it's his "right," he/she (or it nowadays) in going to wind up talking to a judge.

... if he's lucky.

This has not been my experience, or apparently the experience of many open carriers.

 

[JRH6856]

Getting back to the subject at hand if someone unknown & unannounced walks into a school openly armed just because it's his "right," he/she (or it nowadays) in going to wind up talking to a judge.

In some states, this is no doubt true because right or not, the act is illegal. In others states, the act is perfectly legal under both state and federal law and there would be no need for a judge to get involved.

 

[AlFarkle]

Even at my gun club, there is no open carry. Your pieces are in a case when you go from the car to the range tables, or concealed. My opinion? You shouldn't be flashing your weapon if you don't intend on using it.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Good thing opinions aren't laws. Your gun club is a private establishment, for which you pay a membership fee. They can set their own rules on their property, no matter how silly. However, where it's legal to carry on public, tax payer funded property, sorry but they don't get to make their own rules. The rules are set for them by the rule of law. They either abide by as they expect us to do, or they suffer any consequences that may occur. Now if they want to lobby the state house to change the law, that is their right. They may be successful in getting it changed, but they may not like the eventual outcome. We almost got full CC in PFZs a few years ago. I'm sure that would cause some bunched up underoos.


Flashing your weapon, is that what all those cops are doing? Why is it okay for one set of people to openly carry and not okay for another? Because it's part of a uniform? Because being armed is part of their sworn duty? Well, protecting my life and the lives of my loved ones is part of my sworn duty. I just don't wear a uniform as a part of it.

And by flashing your weapon, I'd assume that means actual brandishing. A properly holstered gun is no more brandishing than urinating in a public bathroom is considered indecent exposure.

 

[JRH6856]

It is becoming more apparent, from this thread and others, that a lot of people actually believe that guns are something not to be seen in public, placing them in roughtly the same category as public nudity. Why?

Clearly these people believe such exposure is indecent and wrong, yet meany are goun owners and carry concealed. So it isn't the gun per se'. What it is, is social conditioning. brainwashing in a sense. The same thing that is going on 9n public schools were children are taught to fear the sight of a gun. This has been happening in schools for at least 40 years, and the children have become adults. But they have not forgotten what they were taught. It hasn't helped that the early conditioning has been continually reinforced by TV, movies and news media in a concerted effort to demonize firearms to the point that the majority will fear and loathe the sight of them.

It's working. And that is where the real danger is to the RKBA.

Guns in schools? We need to bring them back.

 

[Plan2Live]

It is becoming more apparent, from this thread and others, that a lot of people actually believe that guns are something not to be seen in public, placing them in roughtly the same category as public nudity. Why?

A recently deceased friend of mine with a string of training credentials gave the following advice to all of his students. "When your gun is visible in public you become a bullet magnet." I tend to agree with that thought.

The part of this thread that I can't grasp is why do you "need" to display in an area where it is clearly disconcerting to a large number of people? You can carry concealed and be just as safe.

 

[F-111 John]

Michigan almost had a law on Governor Snyder's desk to establish an "enhanced" CPL that would allow concealed carry in pistol free zones, and would have prohibited open carry by all individuals in pistol free zones, but then Sandy Hook happened and any law allowing guns into schools was then considered political suicide.

Here are the open carry instructions that the Michigan State Police have written for Michigan law enforcement officers:

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf

 

[Warp]

Even at my gun club, there is no open carry. Your pieces are in a case when you go from the car to the range tables, or concealed. My opinion? You shouldn't be flashing your weapon if you don't intend on using it.

-That is unfortunate for your gun club.
-Nobody is talking about "flashing their weapon"

A recently deceased friend of mine with a string of training credentials gave the following advice to all of his students. "When your gun is visible in public you become a bullet magnet." I tend to agree with that thought.

-People say that sometimes, but...guess what, real world actual factual experience does not support it

The part of this thread that I can't grasp is why do you "need" to display in an area where it is clearly disconcerting to a large number of people? You can carry concealed and be just as safe.

Need? Seriously? You want to know why people "need" to exercise their Right to keep and bear arms?

Again I am shocked by the number of gun grabbers posting on THR.

 

[USAF_Vet]

A recently deceased friend of mine with a string of training credentials gave the following advice to all of his students. "When your gun is visible in public you become a bullet magnet." I tend to agree with that thought.

I guess I'm glad bullets are non ferrous metals, and generally non magnetic. Your recently deceased friend didn't happen to be an open carrier brought down by his own magnetic field, would he? Fact is, you read about open carriers being shot because they have a gun about as often as you read about concealed carriers being shot because they have a gun. You read about each very infrequently, because they are the rare exception, not the norm. You may agree with the thought, but the facts do not. The claims are unsubstantiated at best, deliberately fabricated to further an agenda at worst.

The part of this thread that I can't grasp is why do you "need" to display in an area where it is clearly disconcerting to a large number of people?

You know what else I have that is clearly disconcerting to a large number of people? Tattoos. A V8 engine in my Cadillac. Any number of people can take offense to any number of things for any number of reasons. If I lived my life worrying about what other people thought, I wouldn't be living my life.

You can carry concealed and be just as safe.

If concealed carry is

just as safe

then why is this even an issue? Your own words betray you.
But the fact is, I can't legally concealed carry. Not in a PFZ. But despite training, background checks, and a significant financial expenditure, I should worry more about what other people might think, and prioritize that higher than my own safety and that of my kids. I don't think so. We shouldn't possibly try to normalize open carry? Plenty of other subcultures try to normalize by public displays, homosexual activists, for example, and there are a lot of people in the gay community who disagree with their tactics, but would still reap any benefit or reward gained. And you know what, it's working. Homosexuality is becoming more accepted by a wider spectrum of global culture. Like it or not, they're here, they're queer, get used to it. Apply that same rationale to open carriers. We're here, get used to it. Either support it, ignore it, or get steamrolled by it because its not going to stop. Not by anything less than an act of congress.

The point is, regardless of your own personal intent to open carry or not, to suggest that lawful open carriers are idiotic, foolish, subversive, whatever, is to support an agenda which strips us all of a liberty. And eventually, if that agenda continues, it'll target you and there won't be anyone left to support your liberty. I don't care if you don't personally care to open carry, or that you'd rather disarm than lawfully carry the only way you can. That's your choice, and yours to make. But how dare you try to tell anyone else what choice to make? How insane is it to think that advocating for less liberty under the 2A is a good thing?

 

[MEHavey]

.... to suggest that lawful open carriers are idiotic, foolish, subversive, whatever, is to support an agenda which strips us all of a liberty.

No, that was not --and was never -- the point
And you know it.

Carry that is lawful is one thing.
OPEN carry, given context & circumstances irrespective of possible lawfulness, is quite another.

But you go right ahead.
We'll watch the headlines.

 

[Sol]

A concealed carry badge should clear up any doubts on who is legit... Ha!

Anyways, with today's social and political climate, carrying a gun into a school may end in a rather bad situation for everyone. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's wise.

A 911 call from the school indicating a man with a gun will bring down the fury of the local PD. SWAT teams, snipers the whole nine yards. It's a great way to make the local 6 o'clock news. The carrier isn't leaving without, at the very least, a boot on their neck and a knee in the back or worse.

Hell, look at the pot stirring that active shooter drill caused in Florida. I bet someones little Johnny is suffering from PTSD right now and exhibiting signs of trauma in their lawyers office as we speak..

Freedom has its *risks*.

Great lawsuit material by the way.

 

[JRH6856]

No, that was not --and was never -- the point
And you know it.

Carry that is lawful is one thing.
OPEN carry, given context & circumstances irrespective of possible lawfulness, is quite another.

But you go right ahead.
We'll watch the headlines.

What you do not seem to understand is the point. Which is that open carry in schools in Michigan is and has been the legal norm. It has not produced the headlines you so gleefully predict. It is the school district that is planning on upsetting that state of affairs by actions designed to produce such headlines. Hence the thread title, "New assault on open carry"

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

The part of this thread that I can't grasp is why do you "need" to display in an area where it is clearly disconcerting to a large number of people? You can carry concealed and be just as safe.

Because...in the instance first discussed by the OP... You. Are. Not. ALLOWED. Any. Other. Option.

Concealed carry is not allowed...but open carry IS. How else, then, are we who choose to exercise our right to keep and bear arms, by carrying a firearm for personal defense, to do so?

In the context of this thread, you and so many others who are adamantly against such examples of open carry, are completely and utterly missing the point here. And that point is that the incessant meddling of the government with respect to our Constitutionally guaranteed right to keep and bear arms is DELIBERATELY PUTTING US IN SUCH POSITIONS.

- "You must have a license (i.e. be subject to government regulation) in order to exercise your right to keep and bear arms."

- OK, so I'll jump through the hoops and get a license.

- "You cannot carry a concealed weapon in a public school, even if you have a concealed weapon permit which you jumped through the hoops to get."

- OK, I'm not allowed to conceal carry in a public school where my child is at, so I'll open carry while I'm there.

- **People now run in circles screaming and shouting in a fabricated panic because a person with a LEGALLY carried firearm is in a public school.**


Whether you, I, or anybody else happens to think that open carry is a good or bad idea at any given time is totally beside the point here. And the point is that OUR RIGHTS have been abrogated to the point where there IS NO OTHER CHOICE legally available for a citizen who chooses to exercise his RKBA.

The long term point of this, in admitted accordance with the ultimate goal of the "gun control crowd" to completely eliminate private ownership of ALL firearms, is to allow for the next step in abrogating our Constitutionally guaranteed RKBA by now outlawing open carry itself...at least in this instance.

Because, and I'll bet an entire months pay (overtime included, and before taxes are taken out), that what will NOT happen in this instance is a backing off by the government to allow legal concealed carry in public schools when they outlaw open carry.

Any takers on this?


And let's get this straight right now before anybody decides to start lambasting me (which I welcome):

I, too, have my own opinions about when and where open carry is and is not wise. I'll be happy to situationally discuss them in other threads where appropriate...but not here. Here my opinion on open carry is heavily influenced by the plain fact that law abiding citizens are NOT ALLOWED ANY OTHER CHOICE if they wish to exercise their RKBA by carrying a firearm into a public school in Michigan.

Because the alternative to leave my firearm outside the public school is NOT an option if I (or anybody else) am trying to exercise my RKBA for any reason...including self-defense. This is surrendering a RIGHT.

If we had the OPTION of either concealed carry OR open carry available to us, THEN I would happily discuss the merits of one over the other all day long.


For those who don't quite get it with respect to rights and privileges:

A RIGHT applies equally to everybody under the law. A PRIVILEGE is something extended to some over others and may be denied for any reason whatsoever.


Our "RKBA"...a "RIGHT" or a "PRIVILEGE"? Choose. And choose wisely.

And quit allowing advocates for gun control to divide us over trivial issues like open or concealed carry.

 

[Sol]

What you do not seem to understand is the point. Which is that open carry in schools in Michigan is and has been the legal norm. It has not produced the headlines you so gleefully predict. (It is the school that is planning on upsetting that state of affairs)

OC'ing in Michigan schools may be legal.

I seriously doubt it's a social norm.

If it's practiced it's probably exceedingly rare and in smaller districts where a lot of elbow rubbing goes on and most people know each other.

Purely speculative of course.

I don't agree or disagree about this situation, but actions have consequences, legal or not.

 

[Warp]

No, that was not --and was never -- the point
And you know it.

Carry that is lawful is one thing.

And that is exactly what we are discussing here.

Lawful carry.

If you don't like it, don't do it. There's no need to go all gun-grabber, telling other people when and where and how they can or cannot carry based on your own personal preferences.

 

[JRH6856]

Purely speculative of course.

Being in Texas, I have no personal experience in Michigan, and am only going by what I am told by people who do.

I am really interested in the developed aversion to guns in schools, especially in the zero-tolerance policies of the schools themselves and the degree that it appears to have pervaded the minds of the general population including the many if not most gun owners.

When I was in school, we had toy guns in elementary school that we could play with during recess and shooting ranges in the high school basements. These began disappearing shortly after I graduated from HS in 1966. Interestingly, another thing that happened at that time was integration reached the high school level and student unrest began growing on college campuses and filtering down into the high schools. I'm sure it would make an interesting study for some sociology grad student.

 

[316SS]

Great post, Chief.

And quit allowing advocates for gun control to divide us over trivial issues like open or concealed carry.

Unfortunately, I don't think the divide is really about OC versus CC. It is more to do with gun owners who don't support the RKBA in principle, but rather are quite happy with abrogations of that right if the specific behavior involved is one they don't approve of. Many gun owners (and evidently THR members) fall into this category, and they are not allies we can count on to support the effort to maintain our rights.

 

[MEHavey]

I don't think the divide is really about OC versus CC...

That is exactly what it is about. So don't extend the argument to RKBA writ large.

Legal concealed carry in "institutions of higher learning" is not only fine in my opinion,
but highly desirable to offset the ridiculously fatal fiction of "Gun Free Zones."

All of this discussion on 'judgement' has had as its focus drawing attention to one's "rights"
to openly carry in inappropriate settings, as opposed to being armed-in-fact without calling
attention to yourself.

Take care with the width of that paintbrush.
It's slopping over the lines.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Always be more than you appear to be
.

 

[JRH6856]

All of this discussion on 'judgement' has had as its focus drawing attention to one's "rights" to openly carry in inappropriate settings, as opposed being armed-in-fact without calling attention to yourself.

"Inappropriate" is a matter of opinion. What in your opinion makes open carry inappropriate?

 

[Sam1911]

So don't even presume to extend the argument to RKBA writ large.

I can see why you'd argue not, but I also see why it IS. It is a complex question, really.

One can be for "discretion" in "inappropriate" circumstances, but then the deeper and probably eternal question is WHY do we accept that there are "inappropriate" circumstances at all? Guns are not EVIL. They are't BAD. They aren't randomly dangerous. They aren't "inappropriate." Period.

We must be careful in our discussions and our thinking. We may accept that the sensibilities of others are immature, flawed, or broken to the point that they have negative thoughts about guns. But we must not fall into the habit of, ourselves, thinking of guns as items which have any such taint or stain whatsoever. Unlike "intimate" products or materials, your first reaction to a firearm should not be "oh, I'd better keep this hidden so no one sees!"

Yes, there are evidences to point to where folks pushed an issue (including gun rights) "too far, too fast" and produced a backlash reaction in enough of the population to create a negative legal change.

On the other hand, if we aren't pushing then the line of what is "appropriate" or "inappropriate" will never change in our favor.

As a lot of others have pointed out, it wasn't THAT long ago that guns were far more visible and acceptable in certain areas of society -- especially schools. Why those levels of acceptance changed so drastically for the worse is a deep study, but every single one of us should have as a personal goal to STOP that shift and REVERSE it.

We sit here and argue about how hard we should push, and how fast -- and those are fine strategic discussions about HOW to do this. We should NOT be arguing whether to push or certainly not against pushing. We HAVE to push. Out of sight is out of mind. Out of mind becomes irrelevant and marginalized and shameful and trodden upon.

No, not everyone in society (and obviously not even some of US here!) are comfortable seeing guns on the hips of their fellow citizens anywhere and everywhere. But we'll have to GET folks (and ourselves) used to it if we really want to defeat gun control in the long (LONG) term. If we accept that a good gun is a hidden gun and that it is wrong to let someone see that you are armed, we fall into the trap of accepting the enemy's reasoning. That way is just a slow form of losing.

Is it the right time to walk into your local school with a sidearm? I don't know. Depends a lot on your laws and your area. But where it IS legal and is not hyper-actively suppressed, I'm glad folks do.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

As I said, I'm all about vetting conversations on OC vs CC any day of the week...EXCEPT where the laws have been engineered to back us into a corner on the matter.

Where one or the other is not allowed by law, then there is no choice in the matter and whining and crying about how the opposite choice is a poor decision to make is a moot point. It's defacto the ONLY choice to make if you want to carry.


With respect to the OP, if CC and OC were both viable options, then I would entertain a debate on the relative values of one over the other. But because of this particular scenario, I WILL NOT.


There IS NO DIVIDE over OC vs CC with the dedicated gun control advocates. NOTHING is acceptable to them and that is their stated goal...totally eliminate private ownership of ALL firearms.

The ONLY place where there is a significant divide over OC vs CC is with people like US. People who care about our Constitutional RKBA. In effect, we are screwing ourselves to the benefit of the gun control faction over this.

STOP DOING THIS!

Put things into proper perspective and discuss/debate this particular issue in the same way. Where there is no choice, there should be NO DEBATE. It's not OC vs CC then, it's flat out gun control vs Second Amendment.

 

[Sol]

I don't think this is about OC vs. CC either since CC is out of the question.

This boils down to, in it's barest form, one state agency (the schools) using another state agency (the police) to enforce their emotional feels. Humiliating and possibly injuring somebody (up until death) based off of fear.

If anything, this should be a government bashing thread.

 

[MEHavey]

"Inappropriate" is a matter of opinion. What in
your opinion makes open carry inappropriate?

Because it scares hell outta the sheep -- especially educrat sheep.
And they then run screaming to hide behind lawmakers' skirts who
immediately want to show their "sensitivity."

High emotions make Bad Laws... to wit Washington State recently.

Tis better to have life & limb saved by an unknown concealed weapons
carrier -- outside of all expectation (and making headlines thereto), than
the converse headlines of how someone walked into the front door openly
armed -- and caused immediate lockdown.

.