New assault on open carry

[MEHavey]

Actually I had -- and could have gone either way as this started.
But all I got was "...it's legal and my right."

Those fall on absolutely deaf ears here. `Spent too many
years with a wife teaching four different states and experience w/
the educational institutions' reactions.

Once again, I strongly support concealed carry, but not Open.
If people can't live with that... Well that's most unfortunate.

 

[george burns]

You need to realize that it depends more on your geographical position than on your moral compass. In some states they are just now starting to accept the idea that private citizens can carry a gun. 4 decades ago, when I did the very same thing, I was looked upon with hate and disdain, even though it was legal for me to do so.
Maybe I learned a thing or two since then because all I did was piss a lot of people off and had to take the time to constantly explain to civilian and private authority's that I was totally legal in my ability to carry a firearm, weather they liked it or not. It didn't win me any popularity prizes and did on more than one occasion cut my night in half, having to explain myself.
I found that concealed carry was a more effective way to go about your business armed and without being constantly being questioned and judged by people I knew, people I didn't know, and those I was attempting to do business with. My take on the school issue is irrelevant because perhaps in some states it would be looked upon as normal, but in others that just got their freedom reinstated, it would go over like a rock.
Even if legally correct the fallout that a parent would get from the other parents would make their kid's life there miserable, and I would never do that to my kids or in my case grandkids. It's purely showing off in my eyes. Our rights are moving along nicely, mainly because like mind people have taken to writing letters and sending email to their elected officials and made it clear that if they were anti gun they would be out of work.
Sometimes you need to take your foot off the gas to finish the race.
So having been there, "here" before, I think it has a lot to do with where you live, as far as how you act, especially when you are going home and the kid has to bear the brunt of the parents actions.
This isn't all going to happen overnight, we won the major battle but so did the North, but the South didn't suddenly start wearing blue the next month. These things take time, the die has been cast, now we should show our dignity by not shoving it in the other guys face, that's just the way I feel having been a rebel in my youth and thinking I was furthering the cause by shocking people into submission. If you try that in NYC or other Northern citys, you will be put off. Perhaps in Southern citys the opposite is true.

 

[Red Wind]

Folks along the above lines are going to be in involved in actions which get
the whole shootin' match shut down.... and then whine that they can't
understand.... after all it was their "right."

Say goodnight Gracie....
I'll watch it on re-runs.

Keep your promise. You, George and Gracie, Someday down the line, maybe you can say you were right.

In the meantime, try to remain silent!

George Burns, attempt the same format! And please, break those graphs!

 

[JRH6856]

now we should show our dignity by not shoving it in the other guys face

Sometimes its a matter of not losing your dignity by allowing the other guy shove it in your face.

 

[Red Wind]

Sometimes its a matter of not losing your dignity by allowing the other guy shove it in your face.

Correct. How much dignity is there in calling people idiots and stupid?

 

[george burns]

I think it's more of not kicking a man when he is already down.
In this case we see many of Obama's cabinet on shaky ground if not halfway out the door. They know they lost this fight, the gun business along with accessories, is too big now to stop like you could have even 5 years ago.
It doesn't mean don't stay vigilant, it jest would be nice to see a smoother shift of power. Like we got rid of Pierce Morgan, and anyone who antagonizes and lies about gun statistics. There is no need to act like they did.
You know what cops say, that little extra is what separates us from them.
We're better than that, no need to get in the dirt, we don't have to. We are winning on our feet on dry land.
I predict that is a few years, there will be a national carry with all states honoring it.Once that happens, seeing a gun will not be unusual to anyone, and from there open carry will follow, because the country is ready for it. Not because people didn't respect each others differences and learn to live with them. If you see an unusual car everyday, it stops being unusual.

 

[Warp]

Actually I had -- and could have gone either way as this started.
But all I got was "...it's legal and my right."

No, that is not all you got.

You are now lying.

 

[MEHavey]

You are now lying.

It has now gone adolescent.
Moderator, you can shut this thread down -- or let it run to obvious conclusion.
I could not care less at this point.

 

[Warp]

Remember these?

This post I am quoting is simply re-iterating what other people have already posted. Multiple times. Please do not tell us "it's mah right!" is the only thing you've been given in this thread. We ALL know differently.

Fact: Open carry in schools in Michigan has been legal since 2001. Fact: People doing so has not resulted in a loss of legal ability to carry or open carry.

Fact: Texas is headed down the road towards legalized handgun open carry, after people carried rifles and shotguns openly.

Edit: And of course, in the context of this thread/the OP, There.Is.Nther.Choice!

 

[USAF_Vet]

Actually I had -- and could have gone either way as this started.
But all I got was "...it's legal and my right."

Those fall on absolutely deaf ears here. `Spent too many
years with a wife teaching four different states and experience w/
the educational institutions' reactions.

Once again, I strongly support concealed carry, but not Open.
If people can't live with that... Well that's most unfortunate.

If that's you got from this, Its not your deaf ears I'm worried about, but your blind eyes. Numerous times it has been stated that if there were another option, it would be exercised. In the absence of other options, we do what we need to do in order to maintain our personal protection.

The threats made by this school district are more irresponsible and potentially illegal. Could a lockdown result in a lawsuit, you bet. School districts and police departments don't have the deepest pockets, but are generally insured. The person lawfully exercising their right would probably not face a lawsuit. Grand Rapids is still trying to figure this out the hard way, having faced multiple lawsuits, and losing each of them.

 

[GoWolfpack]

A recently deceased friend of mine with a string of training credentials gave the following advice to all of his students. "When your gun is visible in public you become a bullet magnet." I tend to agree with that thought.

Agree or disagree with him, your friend was incorrect.

The part of this thread that I can't grasp is why do you "need" to display in an area where it is clearly disconcerting to a large number of people?

Because the law says that if you want to protect yourself with a gun at a school in Michigan you must open carry.

You can carry concealed and be just as safe.

See above. You could CC and be significantly less safe from prosecution, since concealed carry at a school in Michigan is illegal. Or you could OC and be immune from prosecution but exposed to the minor inconvenience of screeching liberal moonbats. Sounds like a simple choice to me.

 

[JRH6856]

But all I got was "...it's legal and my right."

Those fall on absolutely deaf ears here.

You choose to ignore the law, you choose to ignore the rights of others.

Just what voices do you heed?

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

But I'm not about to change opinion on Open Carry in schools....
and certainly not from what I've seen presented in this string.

Then riddle me this, Batman:

If you wish to exercise your RKBA by carrying a firearm for, say, personal self-defense and the defense of others such as your family, and the ONLY way in which you can exercise this is through legal open carry because concealed carry is NOT a legal option to you, then what will YOU do?

The location is irrelevant, in my opinion, but let's stick with public schools since this is what the OP brought up.


(Note: The "riddle me this" comment was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. If I overstepped here, I apologize and will remove it.)

 

[JRH6856]

Does anybody know how many shootings have occurred in "gun free" schools in the US since the GFSZAct was passed in 1990? One list I found says 137, another says 180. The first is K-12, the second includes colleges. From 1900-1990 the total was 190.

Gun free school zones don't seem to be working out too well.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Concealed carry in Michigan schools is legal in only two ways.

1) you have a PFZ exemption on your license, currently only available to law enforcement personnel.

2) you do not exit your vehicle, and this only applies to dropping off or picking up. Also covers legally transported long guns.

Unlawful CC on school property is not only illegal at the state level, but also at the federal level. In a PM I received, the question was raised as to whether the open carry exemption met the federal criteria as licensed carry as it pertains to the Federal Gun Free School Zone Act, since it technically is not licensed open carry. To my knowledge, the exemption does meet the criteria at the federal level, else the feds would have intervened and prosecuted at this point.

I've openly carried a firearm in different schools, in different districts and in different counties. While I do live in a more rural area, we are surrounded by major metro areas. It does still raise a few eyebrows, and people have asked if it's legal, but I've typically found that a calm, rational, patient explanation goes a long way. Most people I find are not as rigid in their opinion, even one based in ignorance of the law. Those who are tend to be Chicagoland transplants, and tend to avoid locals during their stay.

I'd prefer to see the laws change, but like the case in Texas, sometimes you gotta start a fire to get things moving. I'd much prefer to CC where ever I go, even if it does mean advanced training, additional fees, and whatever other loopholes that need jumping through. But, in the absence of options, I do what I need to do. Same as I did prior to getting my CPL, when open carry was my only option, though it meant disarming prior to entering a vehicle, adhering to PFZs, and other annoyances. I'd love to see the law change, in favor of personal liberty, though, not against.

As for the strict adherence to personal opinion despite the facts, well, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. You can lead a man to knowledge but you can't make him think.
I see this going no further and being constructive. Lets put this one to bed before it gets ugly. Not much else can be said that hasn't already been said, and no further whipping is gonna get this horse moving.

 

[JRH6856]

 

[barnbwt]

"Then riddle me this, Batman..."
Okay, that's actually really funny on a couple levels, since batman is a) essentially anti-gun in most incarnations, and b) a legalese-Riddler would be both the most plausible foe Batman could face in the real world, as well as the most threatening given Batman's predilection for breaking hundreds if not thousands (if not tens of thousands) of laws in the name of "justice," from breaking and entering, to assault with a deadly weapon, to kidnapping, to reckless endangerment . No wonder he got DA Harvey Dent all jacked up into being Two Face

The Riddler taunting Batman with some idiotic firearms law Catch-22 is a really funny image for some reason

TCB

 

[george burns]

It's more of knowing the mindset, and customs, in different parts of the Country. We are all familiar with the Right to bear arms, I myself have been doing it almost 50 years now, licensed carrying of a firearm concealed and open depending on where I was and what I was doing. But just like you aren't likely to find many Kosher Deli's on every corner in the Deep South and Midwest, the same goes for gun stores or purveyors of ammo, in New York City. It's that because the people have been led to believe that guns are something to be feared. Until the time comes where that stigmas has been erased, you won't get any sympathy from the average New Yorker about carrying a gun openly in public as a private citizen. That's really the long and short of it.
This is a multi generational perception that has been instilled in their basic DNA from an early age. There is new legislation that has made a difference in the past few years, but getting the hearts and minds of people who grew up thinking that only cops and crooks had guns, is not easily overcome, especially when you have a police state, that thrives on taking guns away from the few people who legally posses them. We need a change in the political climate in these places and this just takes time, no force will make people accept an idea that seems radical to them.

 

[JRH6856]

We need a change in the political climate in these places and this just takes time, no force will make people accept an idea that seems radical to them.

And in many of these places there are two groups of people, each opposing an idea that seems radical to them while trying to force their own "radical" idea on everyone. If may take time, but sometimes time is measured by which side gets their idea in place first.

 

[george burns]

That's correct, they just see the glass half empty, but at least they finally got rid of the Mayor who I won't dignify by mentioning his name here.
The next generation of people who are brought up understanding more about things they automatically make wrong assumptions about, will be the weight needed to tilt the scales. Unless of course we get a supreme court decision, which would really be amazing, and scary to watch.
Somehow I don't see them passing that kind of legislation where everyone who lives in NYC, suddenly gets a pistol permit.
If they do that the first few who open a gun store will be mobbed for a year.
Talk about a reality show.

 

[JRH6856]

If you want to see how anti-gun cities respond to court orders, just look at DC.

 

[B!ngoFuelUSN]

You may not be a fan of open carry. The problem is that most states have decided that open carry is not a privilege and declared concealed carry to be a licensed privilege.

Are you a fan of a true right to keep and bear arms? If so, then the only way to do that in most states is to open carry.

As for "threats": Really? We all know that intent and action must be joined in order to create a threat. Going down this road means there is a "threat" everywhere. Restricting a right based upon a "threat" in the imagination of the viewer means there is no right. Are people going to have to drive in a big zig-zag around town? If children are on the street, do open carriers have to cross the street to avoid them? That's where this is going.

Stop worshipping at the altar of the Cult of the American Child. Emotional responses rendered in law are nothing but tyranny.

Not sure if this was aimed at my comments but if it is, a few counterclaims:
I am most definitely a support of the 2A with both its rights and implications. That is why, on a post on this thread, I recommended compromise and specifically, though I agree that we should maintain the right to OC on the school grounds just don't do it. Accept that the majority of people are worried and upset when you do, that the underlying responsibility for all school employees has become the safety and protection of the children and, without taking money away from learning activities, they cannot tell a good OC from a bad OC.
But I don't understand your statement that correlates ones 2A rights with having to open carry. Since there are alternatives to carrying a gun in the open the argument degenerates to, 'just because you have the right does not mean you should'. Unless that you think that to realize your 2A rights, you must demonstrate that you are a gun owner. Why would that be? It's like people toting their AR's in a Denny's just because. There are a lot of gun owners who think those folks are idiots and hurt the cause of preserving the 2A.
To your last point, and consistent with what I've noted, there is the option of maintaining your safety and preserving your 2A rights by carrying concealed. In places like Alaska, Montana, Wyoming and others where firearms are part of everyday life, OC is not an issue. Go forth. But where it is, where people are alarmed or concerned about knowingly being among armed individuals, why not just carry concealed?
I know this will provoke the ire of many an enthusiastic 2A supporter which will prove my earliest point that we just can't seem to compromise. Not by changing the laws, but my changing behavior.
B

 

[Sam1911]

why not just carry concealed?

At the risk of suggesting you've not been reading very closely...

Because in the context we're discussing at the moment, it is COMPLETELY ILLEGAL to do so, while open carry in this instance is perfectly legal. (As pointed out about 11 times in this thread.)

It is all fine and good to say, "just conceal it!" -- except that that would make the folks in that state into felons...

 

[B!ngoFuelUSN]

Defense of my own life isn't reason enough for you?

What makes a cop so much more special than me? People act as if every single cop ever is 100% law abiding.

And no one has yet to answer why schools are so special regarding this issue.

Since you asked:

A cop is different because he or she has to run to the crisis, while you get to run away. Whether you are shooting your way out of it or not.

And schools are different because they are loaded with young and very young people who are not yet ready or prepared to take care of themselves, and implicitly know and expect others to do so for them. And, as you state, you are not OC'ing to protect them. You are carrying to protect yourself.

And yes, in the rare case where you are threatened while (assumedly) spending a small part of the school day on school premises, you can concealed carry.

 

[Sam1911]

And yes, in the rare case where you are threatened while (assumedly) spending a small part of the school day on school premises, you can concealed carry.

Except that that would make these folks a felon which is, you know, bad.