New assault on open carry

[george burns]

I don't understand why some feel the need to open carry in a school. Isn't "carrying" good enough why must you "open carry, in an environment where young kids may be scared by guns", as really no one should, but they also have the right to decide for themselves at the appropriate age what they choose to do, without anyone shoving their ideas down their throat, possibly against the wishes of their family, "who also have rights". So I am not saying don't carry, but since when do we make it our way or the highway.
You can easily wear a jacket or IWB your gun out of respect for the wishes of a parent who may have a different idea than we do. Why must they be forced into submission? You can't carry in a police station, and they are adults, why do it in front of 6 year olds.
I voted straight NRA ticket in the past election, a few weeks back, I didn't for a second think that my walking into a school with my 45 on my hip was the least bit important as long as I had it on my person.
In my family we all carry guns most all the time, but the need to show them to other people has nothing to do with anything other than a self centered approach to wanting to stick it to everyone who doesn't agree with your beliefs.
Just like those meatballs who instead of going to work, walk around stores with AK's and AR's strapped to their camouflaged gear. Do you honestly think they represent the majority of gun owners in this country, I highly doubt it. It's like wearing your car keys around your neck so everyone sees you can drive.

 

[Sam1911]

I don't understand why some feel the need to open carry in a school. Isn't "carrying" good enough why must you "open carry, in an environment where young kids may be scared by guns", as really no one should, but they also have the right to decide for themselves at the appropriate age what they choose to do, without anyone shoving their ideas down their throat, possibly against the wishes of their family, "who also have rights". So I am not saying don't carry, but since when do we make it our way or the highway.

Hey George, we've already addressed this in Post 90 (and others):

"Because...in the instance first discussed by the OP... You. Are. Not. ALLOWED. Any. Other. Option.

Concealed carry is not allowed...but open carry IS. How else, then, are we who choose to exercise our right to keep and bear arms, by carrying a firearm for personal defense, to do so?"

 

[MEHavey]

Concealed carry is not allowed...but open carry IS. How else,
then, are we who choose to exercise our right...

I cannot imagine a faster way to then shut down OPEN carry as well,
than to make lockdown headlines. Self-defeating in the extreme.

Work the problem for CCW... before getting all the sheep up in arms
about the OC guys who "wanted to make a statement..." and losing
any chance of reasoned legislation at all.

 

[316SS]

Tis better to have life & limb saved by an unknown concealed weapons
carrier -- outside of all expectation (and making headlines thereto), than
the converse headlines of how someone walked into the front door openly
armed -- and caused immediate lockdown.

Though you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge it, this is not choice in this case.

So don't extend the argument to RKBA writ large ... Take care with the width of that paintbrush.
It's slopping over the lines.

You and others in this thread have argued that it is fine by you if RKBA is curtailed in this case, because you personally don't like the behavior in question. So your personal distaste for OC is more important than protecting the RKBA. A principled support of individual liberty is not contingent on your approval of the protected behavior. I'd say I chose just the right paintbrush.

 

[Sam1911]

I cannot imagine a faster way to then shut down OPEN carry as well,
than to make lockdown headlines. Self-defeating in the extreme.

Well, then what's the worry? Don't do it because if you do it they'll make it so you can't do it and then you can't do it. So you can't do it because then you can't do it. Great stuff right there!

Work the problem for CCW... before getting all the sheep up in arms
about the OC guys who "wanted to make a statement..." and losing
any chance of reasoned legislation at all.

So while you could be legally armed you shouldn't choose to be. You should disarm until and unless you're eventually able to make better laws? Well...that's fine for you, but I don't care to go unarmed when I legally could be, thanks.

And this all goes back to my points in post 97. Pushing some people outside their comfort zone isn't the worst thing in the world. People are adaptable and attitudes change. Seeing guns around in society (even at school) is something people USED to accept and will again, in time.

Pushing TOO MANY too fast might indeed cause a legal backlash. But that number is hard to define. And your own fears (which appear to be closer to a "zero tolerance" level) aren't really a reliable judge of that.

A few lockdown incidents may push bad legislation. Or...they may not. A few lockdown incidents may cause the schools to have to issue apologies to people acting entirely within the law and embarrass the political types who allow such harassment. There's no guarantee that bad legislation will be the result, any more than there's a guarantee that social acceptance will rise. These things are a gamble, always. But nothing ventured, nothing gained. We cannot hold the status quo out of quaking fear of the risks of action. We're fighting a LONG term battle to change society for the better. We have to push. Sitting still is death.

 

[Red Wind]

You and others in this thread have argued that it is fine by you if RKBA is curtailed in this case, because you personally don't like the behavior in question. So your personal distaste for OC is more important than protecting the RKBA. A principled support of individual liberty is not contingent on your approval of the protected behavior. I'd say I chose just the right paintbrush.
__________________

Well said! MEHavey is really a piece of work on a gun board. Under another handle, you can probably find him on DU and The Daily Kos. Daily.

 

[MEHavey]

You gotta be kidding.
(But then I'm slowly learning who I'm dealing with)

Folks along the above lines are going to be in involved in actions which get
the whole shootin' match shut down.... and then whine that they can't
understand.... after all it was their "right."

Say goodnight Gracie....
I'll watch it on re-runs.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

If I might here...

Discussions on the issue(s) at hand are awesome, opinionated or not. Even discussing the beliefs of any particular member can also be germane.

But let's please take The High Road with personal accusations. Drifts like that generally don't end well on a variety of levels.

 

[316SS]

But let's please take The High Road with personal accusations. Drifts like that generally don't end well on a variety of levels.

Quite right, especially accusations as grave as frequenting DU and The Daily Kos.

 

[Red Wind]

i don't know what to say! Last time I looked, DU and Kos were legitimate boards!

This a gun board. But there are levels . Over reaching and seeming not to comprehend is beyond my ken.

 

[JRH6856]

You gotta be kidding.
(But then I'm slowly learning who I'm dealing with)

Folks along the above lines are going to be in involved in actions which get
the whole shootin' match shut down.... and then whine that they can't
understand.... after all it was their "right."

And you know this will happen because?

Oh yes. Because ,as you said in posts 42 and 50, you will go to the polls and vote to shut it down.

(I don't think you are kidding. And we are also learning who we are dealing with.)

 

[BSA1]

Here in The Land of OZ conceal carry permits are for those with enough wealth to afford one.

Open carry is legal and does not require a permit.

But if I want to carry the same gun in the same places I must;

Prior to applying for a concealed carry permit I must complete a 8 hour class approved by the State Attorney General. Cost in my area varies from $65.00 to $100.00.

Purchase ammunition to take the firearms qualification.

Obtain a handgun.

Pay for my transportation to the class and for my meals.

Arrange and pay for child care for one day.

Submit a application to the State Attorney General.

Pay a fee of $132.50 at the time when I submit the application.

Travel to the Sheriff Office to submit the application, checks for payment of the fees and to be fingerprinted.

The MINIMIUM cost for all of this is well over $200.00 and can easily exceed $400.00 if paying for child care and if the person has to take time off from work.

So this discriminates against the poor, those living on fixed incomes, single parents. These same group of people are most likely to be the victim of crime.

The Supreme Court has ruled against poll taxes even though their is not a right to vote guarantee in the Bill of Rights. Yet States levy hefty fees to exercise your right to conceal carry.

 

[Warp]

And you know this will happen because?

Oh yes. Because ,as you said in posts 42 and 50, you will go to the polls and vote to shut it down.

(I don't think you are kidding. And we are also learning who we are dealing with.)

For quick reference purposes:

And that, my friend, is why I would likely vote to end open carry in regions wherein
such an attitude toward "rights" prevailed over even a modicum of good judgement.
The OC'rs would have done it to themselves.

I came from a time when in California a state trooper would pick me up after my hunting trailer's tire had shredded itself, and we'd ride to the service station with my 1911 still cocked/locked & loaded on my hip. We'd chat about the weather, the hunting, and if that GI-issue hunk of iron would feed hollowpoints. It was a time when we were still a free country.

Then the Black Panthers did something so incredibly stupid [but "legal' don'cha know] that even someone like Reagan had to sign Mulford into law.

I likewise see very deliberate in-your-face-OC-in schools as being equally so incredibly stupid as to cast sufficient doubt in my mind as to the carriers' judgement. And I (and a whole lotta other people) will carry that subjective opinion right to the polls.

MEHavey: May I ask...have you already carried your subjective opinion that carry is bad to the polls?

To clarify: Bad as in a dangerous or shameful activity which other people should not be privy to.
.

 

[MEHavey]

...subjective opinion that [Open] carry is bad to the polls?

Carry to the polls is already illegal. So I don't have to vote on it. Two can play these word games `ya know.
Setting aside that mob rant of "Crucify him! Crucify him!," you obviously didn't read much of my background info before asking such a truly foolish question.

(and don't tell me that 'voting' is not subjective en toto. Your big problem is that the vast electorate is much more "subjective" than I & others like me might be. They're flat emotional.)

But truly, truly... stupid is as stupid does:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/05/guns-open-carry-chilis-sonic-videos
...and opinions can change.

 

[Warp]

I know better than to click on anything from mother jones. Especially when posted by somebody who says they are going to vote to ban open carry, and chooses not to answer the question I just posted.

 

[USAF_Vet]

I cannot imagine a faster way to then shut down OPEN carry as well,
than to make lockdown headlines. Self-defeating in the extreme.

Work the problem for CCW... before getting all the sheep up in arms
about the OC guys who "wanted to make a statement..." and losing
any chance of reasoned legislation at all.

If 13 years and counting is fast, then you are absolutely correct. This has been the law, like it or not, since 2001 in the state of Michigan. We are a handful of weeks away from it's 14 year anniversary.

In all that time, the biggest challenge to the law would have enhanced concealed carry, providing more liberty regarding the RKBA in this state. This doomsday scenario you keep envisioning simply hasn't happened, and with the trend on RKBA swinging toward more freedom and less restriction, it seems less likely that your prediction will come to fruition.

For the umpteenth time, this is not about forcing anything down someone's throat, WE.HAVE.NO.OTHER.OPTION if we want to lawfully carry.

Believe me, if the option was available, the choice would be obvious.

Lockdowns for open carry does happen, and it does make headlines, and despite similar arguments like yours made locally, the law remains unaltered. Because while open carry in schools may be rare, a 911 lockdown is even more so.

We have been working the problem to gain enhanced CCW. Almost had it, too. We keep pressing the issue. When the choice comes to the polls, or is argued in the state house, people on both sides make their voices known. So far it's been a stalemate. One way or the other, I'll abide by the law. What I won't do is coddle sheep, even otherwise pro 2A sheep, or allow myself to be bullied into submission. If anything, the opposition from would-be 2A supporters only emboldens us to actually go and "make a statement" and push the issue harder and farther, rather than simply exercising our rights.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Carry to the polls is already illegal. So I don't have to vote on it. Two can play these word games `ya know.
Setting aside that mob rant of "Crucify him! Crucify him!," you obviously didn't read much of my background info before asking such a truly foolish question.

(and don't tell me that 'voting' is not subjective en toto. Your big problem is that the vast electorate is much more "subjective" than I & others like me might be. They're flat emotional.)

But truly, truly... stupid is as stupid does:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/05/guns-open-carry-chilis-sonic-videos
...and opinions can change.

I carried to vote. Openly. In a school. :-D
Women did not faint, men did not run in terror, children did not burst into tears. Cops were not called. Amazing.

And no offense, but Texas open carry is irrelevant to this situation entirely. Its like comparing apples to snowmobiles. Its not the same thing, it's nit the same ballpark, it's not the same sport. And really, linking a video fro a rampant anti-gun anti-2A website does nothing for your credibility.

But since you brought it up, Texas open carry is lawful for long guns. And while these guys made quite a few headlines, guess what? Open carry bills will reach the governor-elects desk, where he has vowed to sign them, legalizing open carry of hand guns, which was the ENTIRE POINT of those open carry long gun demonstrations.
So, Mother Jones spin or not, drawing attention and making headlines and stampeding the herd does get results. In Texas, it appears those results will be a favorable change to the law, a net gain in liberty.

 

[Red Wind]

You have carried a lot of water on this thread USAF Vet. I admire your strength and staying power.

We've now been called idiots and stupid and everything in between. I suppose we are doing something right!

 

[MEHavey]

Gentlemen I bid you goodnight.
We have clearly fixed opinions that will not change.
So choose your tactics very, very carefully. You're up against a lot of money pushing people with far less intelligence.
But each and every one has a vote.

You have not convinced me by rigid adherence to the "rights" argument.
In fact you may have done just the opposite had I been raised differently.
Unfortunate.

I strongly suggest you tailor the message it a bit before hitting the large element of the undecided again.

 

[316SS]

You have not convinced me by rigid adherence to the "rights" argument.
In fact you may have done just the opposite had I been raised differently.
Unfortunate.

I strongly suggest you tailor the message it a bit before hitting the large element of the undecided again.

You're right. We should tailor the message, where those with open minds can be convinced. And where they can't? We'll see. We never really convinced George III, after all. You win some, you lose some.

 

[Warp]

Gentlemen I bid you goodnight.
We have clearly fixed opinions that will not change.
So choose your tactics very, very carefully. You're up against a lot of money pushing people with far less intelligence.
But each and every one has a vote.

You have not convinced me by rigid adherence to the "rights" argument.
In fact you may have done just the opposite had I been raised differently.
Unfortunate.

I strongly suggest you tailor the message it a bit before hitting the large element of the undecided again.

Fact: Open carry in schools in Michigan has been legal since 2001. Fact: People doing so has not resulted in a loss of legal ability to carry or open carry.

Fact: Texas is headed down the road towards legalized handgun open carry, after people carried rifles and shotguns openly.

 

[Sam1911]

We have clearly fixed opinions that will not change.
...

You have not convinced me by rigid adherence to the "rights" argument.
In fact you may have done just the opposite had I been raised differently.
Unfortunate.

If you admit that you hold opinions that WILL NOT CHANGE, regardless of facts presented, logical arguments established, and history as your guide, what does that say about you?

I don't think anyone else has come forward to say that they had no ability to adjust perspective and convictions given sufficient reason.

 

[MEHavey]

I don't think anyone else has come forward to say that they had no
ability to adjust perspective and convictions given sufficient reason.

I did not say there's no ability to adjust perspective.
But I'm not about to change opinion on Open Carry in schools....
and certainly not from what I've seen presented in this string.

It is indeed unfortunate that you would think one should roll from
one's strongly held beliefs in that regard.

 

[316SS]

Nevermind.

 

[Sam1911]

Indeed unfortunate that you would think otherwise.

I am sometimes disheartened to have someone tell me essentially, "You've been debating with a brick wall and I'm not listening to to anything you've said, or could say."

Sort of the ultimate cop-out. "I'm taking my ball and leaving..." writ large.