New Caliber - 300 AAC Blackout
- Thread starter OnPointFirearms
- Start date
- Status
It seems a very efficient cartridge out of the short barrels (great SBR numbers). Is there any advantage to a 20"?
C-grunt
Member
What are the ballistics for 16 and 20 inch rifles?
Like RainDownmyBlues, Im interested in performance at 300 plus yards. I was in Iraq in the more rural areas. We didnt have house to house fighting, it was farm to farm. 300 plus yard shots were not uncommon and were probably more the norm. But being a mech unit we had mostly M16A4s and only NCOs and above had M4s.
I actually left the service with a much higher regard for the 5.56 than I had going in.
RainDownmyBlues..... I was also a SDMR in 05 with the modified M16A4. That was such a sweet rifle.
Like RainDownmyBlues, Im interested in performance at 300 plus yards. I was in Iraq in the more rural areas. We didnt have house to house fighting, it was farm to farm. 300 plus yard shots were not uncommon and were probably more the norm. But being a mech unit we had mostly M16A4s and only NCOs and above had M4s.
I actually left the service with a much higher regard for the 5.56 than I had going in.
RainDownmyBlues..... I was also a SDMR in 05 with the modified M16A4. That was such a sweet rifle.
Here are 9 and 16 inch ballistics:
http://www.300aacblackout.com/resources/PDS 21501- A300AACM4 300 AAC BLK 123-gr MC-1.pdf
http://www.300aacblackout.com/resources/PDS 21501- A300AACM4 300 AAC BLK 123-gr MC-1.pdf
Well, I guess I was asking if the advantage is enough to matter. When I was researching 6.8, I originally wanted a 20" since I have always been a fan of rifles over carbines and wanted all the accuracy/velocity I can get. The difference from 16" to 18" to 20" is nominal (~50fps). Looking at the data on AAC, the 6.8 starts to surpass the .300 Blk as the barrel length grows. I was just curious about if the 20" barrel would still give such a ballistic advantage as the Blk enjoys in SBR configuration.
Meh, no interest. This seems like one of those things where if you hadn't already bought a setup in .300 Whisper you probably don't have interest in the round anyways. If you have already bought a .300 Whisper, well, why change to the same things with a different label? I don't personally see a law enforcement/military contract coming for these when 7.62x39 chambered rifles can be had on the AR platform. Sure they aren't the same mag/bolt, but is that really such an issue? For me, it's meaningless but if it's fun for you, go for it.
jester_s1
Member
It makes sense as a short range thumper but then again the 6.8 SPC does that job and has more range. Without a big advancement in propellants, there isn't going to be a .30 caliber round for the AR15 that has enough velocity to be a general combat or hunting cartridge.
7.62x39 does not work in ARs, period.
300 Whisper was a wildcat - hand loading only - unless you wanted $45 a box Cor-Bon ammo. 300 AAC BLACKOUT will have affordable full power ammo - so you can hunt with 30 cal bullets in an AR - and also have 30 round mag capacity for other uses.
300 Whisper was a wildcat - hand loading only - unless you wanted $45 a box Cor-Bon ammo. 300 AAC BLACKOUT will have affordable full power ammo - so you can hunt with 30 cal bullets in an AR - and also have 30 round mag capacity for other uses.
SharpsDressedMan
member
I have used the 300 Whisper and can say that for any military operations at night, or out to 150-200 yards by day, this cartridge in a short AR plaform, subsonic and suppressed, is hard to beat. Add a set of goggles, NVG compatible optic AND an IR laser, and the enemy will not know what hit them. I zeroed my optic at 100, and my IR at 50. These are practical zeros for CQB out to those ranges, and even 150 in the day at point blank aiming. Retained energy from the 220gr at 400 yards still exceeds MUZZLE energy for the .45ACP. It is a 350 yard capable round if you can manage the holdover for the subsonic heavy round, but might need a trajectory specific (subsonic) reticle, something no scope maker yet gives us. AAC, if you want to REALLY lead the pack, get Leupold or Burris to give us an affordable, durable, subsonic plotted scope with 1-3x magnification. I have had one scope altered with what I call "foot-dots" (dots placed 12" apart on the vertical stadia), and they make it possible to plot shots out to 500 yards and beyond with the Whispers.
RainDownmyBlues
Member
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2006
- Messages
- 115
Cgrunt said:
I honestly hate to be a downer, but I have a very, very strong distaste for contractors. Probably seeing the $crap$, and we paved the way. Companies like mine always paved the way for the contractors. As I said, I still have a very saltry, distasteful rememberance in my mouth about contractors sweeping up after us, and claming everything we did as theirs.
RainDownmyBlues
Member
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2006
- Messages
- 115
Regardless I'll be a nice guy and ignore my agression on that fact.
The SDMR M16A4 I was issued was pretty much the longest reaching 5.56 rifle you could get over there. Did you deal with the same thing? I was 82nd division, but we were treated well on such things, but not well enough to get the m14.
We had the top NV goggles, but command thought we didn't ever need batteries.... The ACOG as decent on my SDMR, but I think with a "good" aimpoint, I may have been able to touch further. But after two monnths in the skelth, we were blind. No N/v, and that's when our units operated.
In that place though, as I said, we adopted Marine tactics two riflemen suppress, and rush. I would stack behind one of them and usually created enough disturbance to disperse them.
Where were you issued brother? Branch/company?
The SDMR M16A4 I was issued was pretty much the longest reaching 5.56 rifle you could get over there. Did you deal with the same thing? I was 82nd division, but we were treated well on such things, but not well enough to get the m14.
We had the top NV goggles, but command thought we didn't ever need batteries.... The ACOG as decent on my SDMR, but I think with a "good" aimpoint, I may have been able to touch further. But after two monnths in the skelth, we were blind. No N/v, and that's when our units operated.
In that place though, as I said, we adopted Marine tactics two riflemen suppress, and rush. I would stack behind one of them and usually created enough disturbance to disperse them.
Where were you issued brother? Branch/company?
OnPointFirearms
Member
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2005
- Messages
- 93
This is what I'm talking about. Affordable and plentiful ammo from a major force in the industry. When was the last time you saw someone shooting Whisper at the range? Never. 6.5 or 6.8? Once in a blue moon. With the right backing, this could become as common as .40sw.
How did contractors come into this? He said mech unit, did you read "merc"?
OnPointFirearms - With the right backing, anything with performance and public demand can be popular. I know MANY shooters that want 6.8 or 6.5 and are only held back by ammo availability. Catch 22: Shooters are weary of acceptance due to supplier support, suppliers are weary due to reserved shooter acceptance. I don't know how the .300 is any different but only the market will decide.
highlander 5
Member
I've wanted an AR upper in a larger caliber for a while but the 6.8 SPC ammo would be tough to find in my area and as much as the 300 Whisper/300 Fireball gets my interest the parent case 221 Fireball is a little scarce. I could make the brass from 223 but have to admit I'm getting lazy in my old age. If the uppers are reasonably priced and can be fitted with a muzzle break (no flash hiders in Ma) with factoery ammo I'd buy one.
The case is obviously a necked out 5.56, especially the lack of taper. Shortening it allows a longer bullet with enough body to seat low on the ogive. That allows more powder room. it's always a tradeoff, you have to have enough length to get into the neck, without taking up any more space than necessary.
A .30 cal in a 5.56 is old. It was done by competitors at the first Soldier of Fortune shoot in Columbia, MO. At the time, it was shoved out the gate, as the hosts didn't want the AR in any caliber in the event. No, it's not the heat, it's just another round.
The major difficulty in making another AR round is the overall length of the loaded cartridge. Take a look at the two extremes, the 6.8 and 6.5G. It also can be necked up to much larger bullets, and that's been done, too.
Price, availability, etc is up in the air. Despite the naive assumptions of some, alternative calibers for the AR aren't $15 dollar a box fodder you'll find at the Mart or country gas station out hunting. That takes over 50 years of entrenched sales and the acceptance of the mainstream as a "good huntin' bullet." The AR has barely broken the ice for the general public as a mainstream hunting rifle, and the Jim Zumbo's in the crowd won't be jumping on that bandwagon ever.
Crow about the potential all you want, the travails of the 6.8 and 6.5G are what will be in wait for yet another caliber to choose from. If this offering has any kind of following, it won't be in large public sales, as the range and effectiveness don't seem to offer hunters the minimums needed.
It's another niche caliber in the niche market of tactical guns, not the One Caliber To Rule Them All.
A .30 cal in a 5.56 is old. It was done by competitors at the first Soldier of Fortune shoot in Columbia, MO. At the time, it was shoved out the gate, as the hosts didn't want the AR in any caliber in the event. No, it's not the heat, it's just another round.
The major difficulty in making another AR round is the overall length of the loaded cartridge. Take a look at the two extremes, the 6.8 and 6.5G. It also can be necked up to much larger bullets, and that's been done, too.
Price, availability, etc is up in the air. Despite the naive assumptions of some, alternative calibers for the AR aren't $15 dollar a box fodder you'll find at the Mart or country gas station out hunting. That takes over 50 years of entrenched sales and the acceptance of the mainstream as a "good huntin' bullet." The AR has barely broken the ice for the general public as a mainstream hunting rifle, and the Jim Zumbo's in the crowd won't be jumping on that bandwagon ever.
Crow about the potential all you want, the travails of the 6.8 and 6.5G are what will be in wait for yet another caliber to choose from. If this offering has any kind of following, it won't be in large public sales, as the range and effectiveness don't seem to offer hunters the minimums needed.
It's another niche caliber in the niche market of tactical guns, not the One Caliber To Rule Them All.
jmorris
Member
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2005
- Messages
- 24,211
I wouldn't call less than 200 FPS "much higher velocity". The 357 magnum comparison doesn’t ring true either, the spread between revolver and a lever gun is 500 FPS+-.
It’s case volume, powder burn rate and pressure the dinky case volume gets full before you can add enough slow burning powder to make the bullet go much faster in the longer barrel.
greyling22
Member
not to derail a thread but....
" We are an Army based on marksmanship. "
I may very well be wrong, but last stat I heard it took something like 1000 rounds to kill somebody in iraq etc. and I got the idea that was not including practice rounds. It doesn't sounds like we've come a long way form man's weight in lead to kill him in the civil war. and it sure doesn't sound like marksmanship.
(I'm not trying to come across snooty at all. I have the highest respect for our guys in the army and I've got a buddy over there right now. If I was there and somebody started shooting at me from cover I'd jump in a deep hole, fire blindly out the top and scream for air support and tanks. in a situation like that marksmanship wouldn't be very high on my list of priorities.)
But I'd be up for an AR chambered in something subsonic that would reliably cycle in a suppressed gun. especially with a gas checked lead bullet. And if it was a mainstream caliber I could find dies and range brass for. I don't know if this is it, but it's a step in the right direction I guess.
" We are an Army based on marksmanship. "
I may very well be wrong, but last stat I heard it took something like 1000 rounds to kill somebody in iraq etc. and I got the idea that was not including practice rounds. It doesn't sounds like we've come a long way form man's weight in lead to kill him in the civil war. and it sure doesn't sound like marksmanship.
(I'm not trying to come across snooty at all. I have the highest respect for our guys in the army and I've got a buddy over there right now. If I was there and somebody started shooting at me from cover I'd jump in a deep hole, fire blindly out the top and scream for air support and tanks. in a situation like that marksmanship wouldn't be very high on my list of priorities.)
But I'd be up for an AR chambered in something subsonic that would reliably cycle in a suppressed gun. especially with a gas checked lead bullet. And if it was a mainstream caliber I could find dies and range brass for. I don't know if this is it, but it's a step in the right direction I guess.
Wouldn't the 6.5 Grendel address the concerns of the Afghan theater in terms of range from a standard AR platform? To me, it is the most intriguing of all the AR niche cartridges specifically because of its range.
I really, really wish this cartridge would get popular and affordable because I would buy one in a heartbeat. It's hard to justify though, when it is so much easier to go with an AR 10 in .308.
I really, really wish this cartridge would get popular and affordable because I would buy one in a heartbeat. It's hard to justify though, when it is so much easier to go with an AR 10 in .308.
Ratdog68
Member
You can have it....
About the only advantage I see is that it has the capability of some subsonic loads. That's fine if you're a silencer user. In my state, it's legal to own one, but you go to jail for using one. So, for me, this round has no use.
I have my .223 for cheap shooting, and/or varmint use.
I have my 6.8 SPC for medium game hunting (along with many other calibers).
I have my big bolt actions for elk and above.
Between my .223 in my AR platform, and my SKSs in 7.62 X 39, I have SHTF needs covered.
I just don't see the need for a .30 cal bullet limited by a .223 case alongside my existing calibers... let alone seeing it replace anything I already have. Sure, it's a little boutique caliber that fills a niche, but, I don't see it doing much more than that.
About the only advantage I see is that it has the capability of some subsonic loads. That's fine if you're a silencer user. In my state, it's legal to own one, but you go to jail for using one. So, for me, this round has no use.
I have my .223 for cheap shooting, and/or varmint use.
I have my 6.8 SPC for medium game hunting (along with many other calibers).
I have my big bolt actions for elk and above.
Between my .223 in my AR platform, and my SKSs in 7.62 X 39, I have SHTF needs covered.
I just don't see the need for a .30 cal bullet limited by a .223 case alongside my existing calibers... let alone seeing it replace anything I already have. Sure, it's a little boutique caliber that fills a niche, but, I don't see it doing much more than that.
Ratdog68
Member
That response sounds pretty arrogant to me.
Just because you/yours (and/or those you hang with) can't make it work, that doesn't make your observations the final word.
Just because you/yours (and/or those you hang with) can't make it work, that doesn't make your observations the final word.
MTMilitiaman
Member
Actually, it's been a well documented and pretty much universally accepted problem getting the taper of the 7.62x39 cartridge and the necessary curved magazines it requires to work in the AR. You better believe 7.62x39 uppers would be a lot more popular if they were accepted as being generally reliable, esp before the 6.8 craze.
Any projections on when this will be available, who is making them, and what they (1-8 and 1.5-5.5) will cost? Also, what load(s) will they be calibrated for?
I for one do see some use for this cartridge. Sure you can rattle off a list of cartridges that do a lot of things better, but this thing seems to be pretty well rounded as an intermediate powered rifle cartridge. I can't imagine it's trajectory is excellent, but this is mitigated with a good BDC on a quality optic and some time at the range. And all things considered, I'll take my odds with a .30 cal 155 gr OTM round vs. a .223 cal 77 gr OTM round at any range. You can read charts and recite ft/lbs or fps or whatever all you want, sometimes there is just no substitute for sending twice the mass and nearly twice the frontal area.
I don't have a poodle shooter (pipsqueak little varmint cartridge in my mind and probably always will be) or a 6.8 SPC (too expensive...at that price I'll send x51 through my M1A). I have several 7.62x39s, but sometimes have want of something more than an SKS (mine's a Yugo) or AK (WASR). While I would prefer a .300 BLK caliber conversion for a Microtech AUG or RA XCR over an AR, if the cartridge really does become cheap and available, and really does do 90% or better of what any of these cartridges can do at any range, well, yes, I am interested.
Esp since I am dreaming on an AAC 762SD on my M1A already...if I could use the same suppressor on both of them [trails off, daydreaming]...
Last edited:
constructor
Member
In the past there were issues with the 7.62x39 in a AR platform just like there have been feeding issues with every caliber in the AR15 platform, that's why we have HK and Magpul mags and followers for the 5.56 now.
Same with stronger buffer springs, extractor springs and better bolts.
CP has been working and improving their mags so many 7.62x39s feed better than the 5.56 AR did 5 years ago before the release of the better mags using magpul followers.
There are many videos of guys firing the 7.62x39 in ARs full auto with no problems. Everything changes some just don't keep up with the advancements in other calibers. The 300AAC might be a fine suppressed cartridge I just have no use for it, there are much better hunting, target, long range and combat options.
Here is a video of a 7.62x39 that seems to run fine faster than most would ever shoot one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MksLdjCBKWI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51rG8971DtY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeCuKTs6XO8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FHTJUJzC7U&feature=related
Same with stronger buffer springs, extractor springs and better bolts.
CP has been working and improving their mags so many 7.62x39s feed better than the 5.56 AR did 5 years ago before the release of the better mags using magpul followers.
There are many videos of guys firing the 7.62x39 in ARs full auto with no problems. Everything changes some just don't keep up with the advancements in other calibers. The 300AAC might be a fine suppressed cartridge I just have no use for it, there are much better hunting, target, long range and combat options.
Here is a video of a 7.62x39 that seems to run fine faster than most would ever shoot one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MksLdjCBKWI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51rG8971DtY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeCuKTs6XO8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FHTJUJzC7U&feature=related
Last edited:
that will be the key to adoption. glad to hear you guys are doing this. As I've said many, many times, I don't own any "whisper" stuff because it's proprietary.
time will tell if it's a good caliber or not, but it seems promising. seems like a lot of undeserved negativity in this thread
rsilvers, I assume in the wide range of bullets listed, you go from super- to sub-sonic. I'm curious what twist barrels you'll recommend that allows that range of bullets to shoot well.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
