New Caliber Idea: 12x25mm Blackout

[CmdrSlander]

This is an idea I had, nobody's developing it (yet ).

12x25mm Blackout

Mission: Create a Caliber for autoloading pistols that falls between .45 Auto and .50 AE.

Applications:

-Personal defense (reasonable recoil, reasonable width/length).

-Suppressed firearms (in subsonic loads it relies on mass for lethality, much like .458 SOCOM).

Tech Specs:

Estimated Velocity and Energy Transfer With:

Supersonic 290 Grain projectiles: 1200 Ft/S, 810 ft-lbf.

Subsonic 310 Grain: 950 Ft/S, 760 ft-lbf

Platforms:


-Full Metal Autoloaders: 1911 Style with modifications.
-Revolvers
-Polymer Autoloaders: Solidly built (like Glocks etc.) internal compensators recommended.

So what do you guys think? Would you ever shoot this?

 

[hAkron]

It should be rimmed to work natively in a revolver, but should also be a bottle neck cartridge to annoy reloaders. Actually a bottle necked revolver cartridge would be pretty cool. Maybe you could neck down .500 S&W Magnum to make your brass.

 

[Caliper_Mi]

-Personal defense (reasonable recoil, reasonable width/length).
...
Supersonic 290 Grain projectiles: 1200 Ft/S, 810 ft-lbf.

Subsonic 310 Grain: 950 Ft/S, 760 ft-lbf

Roughly twice the energy and a fair bit more momentum than a 45ACP is reasonable recoil?

I also get different energy numbers ( http://www.firearmexpertwitness.com/customguns/calcnrg.html )

Aside from that, it sounds cool, but the energy levels seem like they would be more suited to handgun hunting than self defense. Would I shoot it? I would like to, but realistically, no. Only because my bank account isn't up to buying an expensive custom gun that shoots an expensive custom cartridge.

Here is what I see your challenge as:
If looking at this as a SD gun, convince me why not to buy a Glock 10mm or 1911 in 460 Rowland?
If looking at this as a hunting handgun, convince me why not to buy a Desert Eagle in .44 mag or .50AE, Coonan (1911 in .357), or a revolver?

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Isn't this what 10mm is meant for?

 

[JTQ]

More like the .50 GI from Guncrafter Industries.

http://www.guncrafterindustries.com/50gi_cartridge.shtml

 

[GRIZ22]

So what do you guys think? Would you ever shoot this?

What makes it better than existing cartridges with similar ballistics?

 

[Robert101]

Fun exercise. For me, I'm not fond of anything over .45 in a handgun. Actually my rifles are limited, by my choice, to .308.

 

[Sam1911]

If looking at this as a SD gun, convince me why not to buy a Glock 10mm or 1911 in 460 Rowland?

Actually, I think the real question is, convince me why I'd even want a 10mm or .460 Rowland for self-defense, let alone something even farther beyond the useful power range?

When the hardware aspect of the self-defense problem has been solved 100 times over by various common cartridges, a better GUN/cartridge isn't the answer to greater personal defensive capacity.

The overblown, over-argued, and beside-the-point caliber question pretty much boils down to whatever cartridge you can most easily put multiple accurate hits on target with, very quickly. Something in the 9mm -->.40S&W --> .45ACP range does that very well, and with perfectly sufficient power. Much more energy than that only serves to slow down recovery and follow-up shot time, and require a heavier, harder to carry, harder to conceal, and slower to maneuver (draw, shoot, transition, etc.) gun to house and control.

Making a new cartridge just because it's cool is fine. Trying to sell it as finally the answer to effective self-defense is silly ... or maybe even deceptive.

Could you use it for self-defense? Sure. Just like you could use a .44 Mag, .500 Mag, .50 AE, etc. But they ARE NOT AS GOOD for effective self-defense shooting as the lowly 9mm, .40, or .45 which produce plenty of energy/penetration, but which can be shot much faster accurately, and are far easier to conceal, carry, and use.

 

[CmdrSlander]

Thanks

Thanks for your replies guys. Really good responses. As for my numbers: I'm a photographer not a mathematician! But really I was using educated guesses and some info I got from handloaders I know.

Also, when I said self defense I didn't necessarily mean people... Big animals are just as dangerous. I realize that this round wouldn't take off big time, but hey, think of all the variants of 7.62x5X that we tried over the years, some rounds may take off.

 

[Skribs]

JTQ, I was thinking the same thing, the .50 GI round.

If they're still available once I've gotten a few more "conventional" caliber guns, I want to get a .50 GI glock or two. It makes sense from the bigger hole standpoint, as .50 is the legal limit for most guns. "Why do you carry a .45?" "Because they don't make it in .46." "Oh, yeah, they don't - but they make it in .50!"

ETA: The .50 GI round has subsonic rounds by nature, and carries energy similar to a .45. GI makes 1911s (although they're smegging expensive...apparently worth it, but $3k each), and they make a $600 conversion kit for the Glock 20/21.

 

[winfried]

Mass has nothing to do with effectiveness, I do not understand that this myth still persists.

Regards

 

[Caliper_Mi]

Actually, I think the real question is, convince me why I'd even want a 10mm or .460 Rowland for self-defense, let alone something even farther beyond the useful power range?

I fully agree. However there are those that do carry those calibers for SD. also misinterpreted the OP's self defense use as being against two-legged aggressors...

Mass has nothing to do with effectiveness, I do not understand that this myth still persists.

Nothing? Please elaborate. Mass is a fair part in two major measurements that are used to gauge a calibers effectiveness: kinetic energy and momentum...

 

[Skribs]

If you're keeping a bullet subsonic, then mass is the only way to increase the energy, which combined with the design of the bullet will greatly aid in penetration.

I was just thinking about it, though, and Blackout is a much better name than GI.

 

[JTQ]

winfried wrote,
Mass has nothing to do with effectiveness, I do not understand that this myth still persists.

I notice your profile says you are located in Africa. Do the big game hunters in Africa use light for caliber high speed bullets on the big tough African animals, or do they use large heavy for caliber bullets in their hunting rounds?