Why isn't there a demand for a short/low recoil/affordable .50 caliber pistol round?

[MikeJackmin]

Lots of good points made here, but I'll try my hand at devil's advocate for a moment.

First, large-diameter rounds operate at lower pressures, and second, a non-lead .50 bullet can have plenty of sectional density without excessive weight. Just off the top of my head, a 200 grain, non-lead bullet, if pushed 200 fps faster than a comparable .45 acp round, might be quite manageable. (I say 'might' because I don't really know how much the lower pressure would help mitigate the perceived recoil).

If such a round were available, I'd certainly consider it for CCW.

Of course, the development costs would be huge and the chicken-and-egg problem would always be there to haunt you - how will I know if ammo will remain available if it's not popular, and how can it get popular if there are doubts about the ammo? But it's not impossible.

 

[torqem]

Firing pressures have little or nothing to do with the recoil. Recoil is the opposite and equal reaction to the action of pushing the bullet out of the barrel. It's the same as the momentum. A 200 gr bullet at 1000 fps, as you propose, has plenty of recoil/muzzlejump, more than 90+% of folks can handle, in a ccw size and weight gun, for sure. Probablymore than 99% can handle(or want to handle). There's no market for such things. .50 bore, instead of .45 bore, makes no more difference than .45, vs .40. (ie, no difference at all, if the bullet weight, design and construction are the same).

 

[drastic_quench]

Most CWP instructors will tell you that you have a right to defend yourself from attackers, but you also have a responsibility to not incur collateral damage. The higher the caliber, the more likely your round will penetrate more than your attacker.

Bigger diameter has no relation to penetration - especially if the mass is no greater than a 45acp; it's all about the energy imparted by the powder.

 

[goon]

Personally, I'd skip it.
The .45 ACP has been around for a long time and it's worked well. Assuming there is no panic going on, I can find ammo for it almost anywhere. Why choose an upstart instead?

Having said that, if you chambered a .50 caliber stubby rimmed round in a well-made Webley replica, I'd probably have to start saving my pennies for that.

 

[Pointshoot]

There is the 50AE and the 500S&W. In the appropriate handguns, they are big game hunting rounds.

It has been shown that with modern well designed hollow point bullets the service caliber pistol chamberings of 9mm, 40S&W, and 45ACP offer similar performance today.

There's the 50GI and its not exactly flying off the shelves except for those who like the novelty of 'the biggest'. People out there have determined that most of them see no need for a big 50 defensive round against 2 legged type threats.

Manufactures of guns/ammo will support niche markets, but there has to be enough people buying out there to justify their doing so. (For example, the 41 Mag and 10mm).

 

[beatledog7]

The higher the caliber, the more likely your round will penetrate more than your attacker.

Would whoever fed SC Shooter this line of absurdity please step forward and take your lumps.

But please don't anyone else get near the action--I'm going to throw a 15.00cal beach ball at the perp, and it'll undoubtedly go through about 100 bystanders.

 

[Nickel Plated]

Is that a nominal, or actual limit? My 45s are .451, .452, and .454. Would they be legit, or would it have to be .45000000?

That's what I've always wondered about caliber limits. But I doubt the ones who wrote that law even put that much thought into the matter.

I bet you could make some custom 500S&W handloads, headstamp them .45Plus or some other made up name and noone would know the difference.
"Hey it says .45 so it's legal"

 

[slickracer]

Perfection has already been achieved with the .45 ACP.

 

[strambo]

Like you said, the .50GI is exactly what you are describing. It is proprietary, pricey and hard to find...because there is no market demand for it. The benefits don't overcome the increased cost and losing capacity.

If you handload, the Glock upper would be a good way to explore the round.

 

[AFDavis11]

That stupid picture is really messing up the thread. I hope it's just an iPad problem.

 

[Ron James]

They have been .50 caliber hand guns in the past and that is where they stayed. Build one, I really don't believe they will come.

 

[AABEN]

I have a 50 cal muzzle loader pistol IN hunter with a 12 in barrel scoped that is a very good shooter. Then there is the Desert Eagle 50 that is fun to shoot also.

 

[Sam1911]

In another thread today I put out a few thoughts that touch exactly on this, so I'll repeat myself. (Hey, somebody's got to! )

...

It's kind of fun to see the various trivial ends folks have taken such experiments to: super-light and fast saboted rounds; extra-heavy thumpers, and everything in between.

It seems that, almost regardless which cartridge is under study and which way the envelope is being streeeeeetched, the final conclusion is always eventually along the lines of, "Well, that was fun...so anyway, what's on TV?" In other words, much ado about nothing and no substantive final product anyone adopts for practical uses.

Now, self defense is a very important need and requires from each of us the most dedicated study and preparation. It is not a field bounded by trivialities of ammo or weapons -- what cool gun or exotic ammunition we throw our money at makes no difference at all. In fact, cool guns and exotic ammunition can be quite a distraction from anything of even remotest importance.

What is important is investment in YOU, development of YOU -- the real weapon. Have you pursued training in situational awareness, ADEE, self-defense tactics and law? Have you developed realistic practice routines, off the "square range," that build your gun handling and gun-FIGHTING skills to the point that you might be of more help than harm in a violent encounter? Have you put enough rounds downrange in realistic training and in practice that you don't have to think about the mechanics of shooting under pressure?

If so, you start to come to the realization that you aren't going to rely on "that one accurate shot" that lays your adversary low. Not going to search for specialty bullets that can penetrate him lengthwise from head to toe. Don't want proprietary .50GI cartridges you can't afford to send downrange by the tens of thousands in practice. Those are irrelevancies and distractions from the task you're setting out to accomplish. (I.e.: surviving a violent encounter.)

...

So, to answer the question directly, there isn't a demand because -- perhaps counterintuitively -- a new bigger badder heavier/lighter/reduced-recoil/super-mag/ultra-moderate concealed carry round is actually a net loser, a detriment to the whole exercise, rather than a positive thing.

 

[Blackstone]

Yeah it just feels like you're trying to shoehorn a calibre into doing what an existing calibre and round already does effectively.

 

[dakota.potts]

What about something like a .50AE necked down to a .45 bullet? Would be interesting to see, but I don't see it being a round for concealed carry.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Might be interesting. However large bore handgun calibers are frequently favored by handloaders. Necked down cases are hard to reload. Ask anyone who has ever reloaded .357 Sig and see what they say. This would be a hunting round, so I think necking it down would greatly reduce the interest in the cartridge.

Not to mention I doubt the balistics would be improved over the .454 Casull or 460 magnums.

And again, I have to ask, why? A round like this would do nothing that preexisting cartridges don't already do, except perhaps fit in a smaller gun.

But as overpenetration would be a huge concern on a cartridge like this, it brings us back to hunting applications again. So what does having a smaller gun really get you in that situation, except more recoil.

 

[SDGlock23]

There are issues here really concerning a .50 "normal size" semi auto pistol, and here's what I think.

Once go up in caliber, your capacity diminishes. Bullet weight also increases, which isn't in itself a bad thing, but in order to keep recoil to "tolerable" levels, velocity has to be rather low. And the .50 GI is SSSLLLLOOOWWW, and super slow doesn't really sell to be honest despite the big bullet.

You would want a big bullet with at least moderate velocities and if you were to get more impressive velocities the recoil would quickly become an issue. The guns would have to be comped so basically you're stuck with a very slow .50 cal bullet, with low magazine capacity.

.45 seems to be about it as far as a big bullet being able to retain decent velocity and acceptable magazine capacity without bothersome recoil.

 

[hartcreek]

Heck then why even stop with a 50 cal just someone build a 12 gage slug semi auto then. The brass cases have been available for a century....

 

[TRX]

I think the .50GI conversion kit for the Glock is a pretty nice deal.

You're looking at $600-ish for the slide and barrel kit, just slide it on top of your Glock 20 or 21, or source a frame and FCG from your favorite auction site. Probably $900-ish by the time you were done; not the cheapest, but less than a boutique 1911. Or only $600 if you already have the Glock.

 

[Midwest]

In my state you couldn't carry it,,,
Oklahoma placed an upper limit of .45 caliber on concealed carry.

I wasn't aware any of state restrictions on caliber size.

I know New York State require the pistol(s) to be listed on the permit and other states require that one be qualified in a certain caliber in order to carry it.

 

[strambo]

Another way to look at it: The 45 GAP is the exact same concept only 1 step down in frame size...and a flop. The idea was a step up in dia. while retaining the 40/9mm frame size and get 45 ACP power. In the end, if you want a 45, just get a 45, not a big deal.

Same with the .50, trying to step up in dia while keeping the 45 ACP frame size. Just not worth the trade offs for a marginal increase in performance.

The best .45 ACP hollow points will reliably penetrate 13-14" in ballistic gel while still expanding to over .70 caliber. About as good as it gets in a practical handgun.

 

[grimjaw]

If we're just dreaming, why isn't anybody making that .50 caliber black powder four or five shot revolver that I've been dreaming of for years?

 

[torqem]

The only "decent velocity' 45 jhp's are the 165 gr loads from CorBon. 1000 fps is quite slow, and 800 fps has no chance of expanding a jhp in flesh. Jello doesn't count. The fact that 185 gr and 165 gr .45 jhp's exist is an admission that the 230 gr jhp's don't expand. With the possible exception of 5" barrels and plus P loads, 950 fps.

 

[Rodentman]

Proprietary, pricey and rare. All true, but when you get the Model 4, it's a real treat!

 

[BobWright]

There is a relationship between bullet diameter and bullet length. As diameter increases, so must length, in order to acheive stability of the bullet in flight. As diameter/length increases, so does weight, and so does recoil.

Remember (of course not) that at one time pistol calibers ran up to .69 caliber with round balls. The British, I believe, learned that the ideal caliber was 54 bore, or .445" diameter.

Bob Wright