New CIA Director doesn't understand Fourth Amendment

[Ira Aten]

Beside the fact that a Commissioned Officer in the U.S. Military isn't really supposed to serve (while still commissioned) as the director of a rather important civilian agency such as the CIA, it appears General Michael Hayden doesn't have a very good grasp on the Fourth Amendment.

Below is a portion of the story showing he was not aware of the "probable cause" requirement previous to a warrant being issued.

(Here is the link) http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/


[Q:] Under the Fourth Amendment, don't you have to have probable cause to be able to do a search that does not violate an American's right against unlawful searches and seizures.

[Hayden:] No, actually the Fourth Amendment protects all of us against unreasonable search and seizure.

[Q:] What many people believe – and I'd like you to respond to this – is that what you've actually done is craft a detour around the FISA court by creating a new standard of 'reasonably believe' in place of probable cause because the FISA court will not give you a warrant based on reasonable belief, you have to show probable cause. Could you respond to that, please?

[Hayden:] I didn't craft the authorization. I am responding to a lawful order. All right? The attorney general has averred to the lawfulness of the order. Just to be very clear – and believe me, if there's any amendment to the Constitution that employees of the National Security Agency are familiar with, it's the Fourth. And it is a reasonableness standard in the Fourth Amendment. And so what you've raised to me is an issue of the Constitution. The constitutional standard is 'reasonable.' And we believe, I am convinced that we are lawful because what we're doing is reasonable.


( Fourth Amendment reads: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.")

 

[LAR-15]

I did not know he was director yet.

 

[Mortech]

He isn't and may not get the post just because of the personal believes as posted by Ira . There is a big fight brewing on him already within the Bush administration .

 

[Croyance]

Many Democrats and some Republicans are against him while he holds his commision. That, however, is easily solved.
Feinstein is okay with him though. Take that as you will.

But as to the thread title, neither do various judges understand the Fourth Amendment. Some on the Federal and Supreme Court level.

 

[hjrocket]

not a precedent

ADMIRAL Stansfield Turner USN was CIA boss back in LTCDR Jimmy Carter's presidency. He resigned his commission to serve. But IIRC he was reinstated as an ADM USN Ret. after serving in CIA to get his military retired pay.

 

[geekWithA.45]

I heard the entirety of Hayden's press conference referenced in the quote, live, on C-SPAN radio. I got the impression that he did indeed understand the 4th, in its entirety.

The entire press conference was a tedious hour of parry and riposte between him and the press.

The press was basically trying to get him to admit that Bush lied, people died, er, I mean, Bush was running rampant, getting his jolies by tapping phones at will.

Hayden, in the meantime, was trying to lay out the idea that there were 3 or so distinct classes of things going on, depending on whether it was purely domestic, purely foriegn, or was a mix (ie: one end point of the communication was foreign), and trying to explain the extent and limitations of lawful surveillance authority that applied to each class.

Then, of course, the press would munge them all together, trying to mix the cases together to come up with the most incriminating scenario.

 

[Standing Wolf]

New CIA Director doesn't understand Fourth Amendment

Neither does the President; neither does anyone in Congress; neither does the Supreme Court; neither...

 

[Robert J McElwain]

It makes you wonder which orifice these guys pull their nominations from, and whether they consult with anyone before leaking the names to the public.

Bob

 

[boofus]

Why does any of this come as a surprise?

No one in washington dc with the exception of Ron Paul knows jack or squat about Constitutional anything.

We need to have a constitutional convention and add a term limit amendment for all senators and representatives.

There are too many people in government that we have allowed to sit there and grow roots and fester into cancerous masses.

Look at the kennedys and thurmonds that have wallowing in DC for over 30 years.

 

[Waitone]

It makes you wonder which orifice these guys pull their nominations from, and whether they consult with anyone before leaking the names to the public.

Council on Foreign Relations

Quote:
New CIA Director doesn't understand Fourth Amendment

Neither does the President; neither does anyone in Congress; neither does the Supreme Court; neither...

I wish the lack of understanding was limited to just the fourth amendment.

 

[Werewolf]

The constitutional standard is 'reasonable.' And we believe, I am convinced that we are lawful because what we're doing is reasonable.

One man's reasonable is another man's tyranny...

 

[Lindenberger]

CFR

Waitone wrote:
"Council on Foreign Relations"

Nah. Bush has even pissed them off. I personally like the guy, though. I think that they also have a new name--"World Affairs Council" or some such.

 

[Camp David]

Beside the fact that a Commissioned Officer in the U.S. Military isn't really supposed to serve (while still commissioned) as the director of a rather important civilian agency such as the CIA...

Ira: A few comments...

=>Who said the CIA is suppose to be a civilian agency?

=>I doubt civilian vs. military directorship would really make a crucial difference.

=>Governance of agency needs someone in the know and able to keep a secret. Whether that person wears military or civilian hat is meaningless.

What CIA needs is to be able to keep secrets! Remember it was the CIA's screwups that got us to this position in the first place...regardless what you think of President if he has bad intelligence he cannot succeed. CIA is a joke now... it needs to be fixed and its cadre of spooks that use pages of Washington Post to backstab president need to end!

Better intelligence is what is needed. Infighting about whether to appoint military vs. civilian director is absurd, in my opinion. Ability to lead is key. Ability to keep a secret is also mandatory. Secrets leaking out in Washington Post is what CIA needs to avoid.

 

[RealGun]

Beside the fact that a Commissioned Officer in the U.S. Military isn't really supposed to serve (while still commissioned) as the director of a rather important civilian agency such as the CIA,

I keep hearing that, but why is it a problem? Near as I can tell, CIA is not under any Cabinet Department and thus the direct reporting structure to Negraponte. The IC (Intelligence Community) is 16 agencies, most of which are under Cabinet departments with only soft organizational lines to Negraponte. CIA is one of the glaring exceptions. It is certainly understandable why the National Intelligence Director would need to be a professional diplomat, having little direct accountability for budgets or results of any one agency.

It seems logical for foreign intelligence with a defensive purpose to be under the Defense Department, but that resulting broad scope should require an undersecretary for both Armed Services and for Foreign Intelligence, a department not entirely military. I would put it under the Pentagon so that there is central control of in-theater operations. The Abu Ghraib torture debacle was an example where there were people involved accountable to different top leadership.

The "Central" leadership has been removed from the CIA, so I would change the name. Goss was effectively demoted by reorganization a year ago, displaced by Negraponte's new position as Director of National Intelligence. Suddenly Goss was not going to Cabinet meetings. Like Michael Brown, ex-FEMA Director, suddenly missing his connection to the President and resenting his new boss (Chertoff) to the point of insubordination, Goss too was likely to be an unhappy camper.

 

[warriorsociologist]

- Is it just me, or does the General look just like "Red" from "That 70's Show"???

 

[Master Blaster]

Here is the funny part about the CIA,

ITS A SECRET SO DONT TELL ANYONE

ITS A SPY AGENCY.

They are supposed to spy on people who are not nice to us. Dictators, Drug runners, gun runners, foreign governments, Terrorists.

AS a result they cant follow all the US laws when spying in foreign countries or in this one (if the bad guy comes here).

They need to look and act like whomever they are spying on, or need to be able to recruit folks who already work for the bad guys to do the spying.

If the CIA follows the law, it will be IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM to do their job.

A few years back a guy named Clinton put a US lawyer in charge and told him to follow the law. So that sort of destroyed their ability to spy on criminals terrorists and foreign governments who DONT FOLLOW US law.

It sort of like if I sent the newest police recruit with a crewcut blond hair and polished cop shoes in a new pair of wranglers down to the Hood to infiltrate the Crips crack dealing network, and told him to follow the law while spying on the crips. They offer him a hooker and a hit of crack and he tells them its against the law so he can't do it???? He'd be dead in about 15 minutes, because the crooks would make him from 2 blocks away........

The fact that the 4th amendment was even mentioned here proves that the poster has no idea what the CIA is supposed to do. If someone is going to get good clandestine intellegence, they have to infiltrate the group they are spying on without them knowing it. The spy has to look talk walk and act like a crimminal, has to become a trusted member of the group, which means breaking the law, before they will be trusted and privy to any useful intellegence.
That means no search warrant, no following the law.

Hopefully the general will understand this, try to minimize collateral damage to innocent civilians, but will recognize an effective spy can't follow the law.... or the CIA will be worthless.

 

[BozemanMT]

Quote:
New CIA Director doesn't understand Fourth Amendment


Neither does the President; neither does anyone in Congress; neither does the Supreme Court; neither...

They understand it just fine
They just don't care. :banghead:

 

[Lindenberger]

Rusty

My Hebrew's a little rusty, Master Blaster. Ezcor lo ad. . . what? pa'am? What's pa'am?

 

[afsnco]

+1 Master Blaster

What you've stated is the dirty little secret of the intel business. Except it's not so secret. Anyone with half a brain knows how it works, but there are lots of people who are squeamish about doing what needs to be done to gather/receive timely, effective, hopefully terrorist-thwarting intel.

Hmmm, our operatives are listening in on the conversations of people who have vowed to kill as many Americans as possible? Doesn't that violate their privacy?

Hmmm, our operatives are infiltrating terrorist organizations throughout the world? Why, they might have to lie, cheat or steal if they associate with terrorists.

Sometimes I wonder if we're just too stupid to deserve to survive.:banghead:

 

[Lindenberger]

Nails

As so many have today, I fear our Flying Sergeant has also hit the nail squarely on the head.

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

Arlen Specter certainly seemed jacked about this nomination. I have to look into that guy's stand on 2A issues. Sometimes he sounds like one of the more reasonable people in Washington.

I'm not surprised that Feinstein's not a big supporter of 4A issues. She is, after all, a tyrant. The fact that she likes Hayden and Specter does not bode well.

 

[TrapperReady]

LB - Specter is no friend of those who support RKBA issues.

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

Thanks for the link TR. I figured as much; if he'd had a strong 2A record he probably would have been more successful on the national level.

What's with people like Specter and McCain? You'd think Republicans would have the sense not to pee off gun owners.

 

[lamazza]

Bush just can't stop putting his hand in blender can he.

 

[Lindenberger]

Snakes

Specter (author of the single-bullet theory) and McCain (wannabe author of his memoirs of his years as Emperor) are both diabolical snakes.

Every time I see McCain I think of a chipmunk with pine-cone seeds stuffed in his cheeks. They're both enemies of the Constitution, the second-holiest document of Western Civ after the Bible.