You can check my backpack as soon as I see your warrant.

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That may be but if they are useful - should we not do them and just let bombers have access to soft targets.
:cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

These searches ARE NOT USEFUL!!!! They're a kneejerk, feelgood response to something that happened thousands of miles away. We have ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that 1) terrorists intend to bomb our subways, and 2) that these terrorists, if they exist, will be thwarted by the searches.

These searches are nothing more than politicians pandering to scared idiots.
 
I agree with HTG, these searches are a huge waste of time.

Cop: I need to search your bag.
Terrorist: I don't want to be searched.
Cop: Then I can't let you on the train.

Terrorist leaves and comes back 5 minutes later, or just walks a few blocks down the street to a different station.

Or:

Cop: I need to search your bag.
Terrorist: Allah Akbar! (blows himself up in the line of people standing around waiting to be searched). :rolleyes:

And if they beef up security on subways and buses too much, the terrorists will simply start attacking schools or Mcdonalds or gas stations instead.
 
Personally, I would prefer a military approach to terroism rather than a law enforcement approach. The rub is adequate intelligence and preventing abuse.

If I were a subway policeman who was ordered to search knapsacks and such for bombs carried by suicide bombers...I'd change career paths. Like Police Commisioner, Sir, here's the badge, YOU look for the bombs.

After a few policemen get killed doing this...the police unions will become much more supportive of reasonable searchs. Sad world.

The statists still need a larger weapon. I don't do airplanes, trains, buses, or subways. They could lock all of these down and never have a moment's power over what percentage of the population? I'm not sure but it is a larger percentage of the total.
 
I think anyone who supports the idea of chucking the 4th amendment for security and depending on the Gov for THAT protection...

Should chuck all their guns in the barrel here to be melted down and go home and let the Gov can protect them, yes ?

If you're going to chuck one, might as well chuck them all.

It makes utterly no sense to stand here and defend to the last breath ONE protected right of the BoR and then spit on another, it's yet another of the many unbecoming hypocrisies we've seen here recently.

-K
 
It's been mentioned here the subway searches are useless and a huge waste of time. Nothing could be further from the truth. These searches are part of a conditioning campaign - and they are VERY effective. The people are getting acclimated to being searched, and this is an important step down the path toward totalitarianism.
 
Rick, I'm a fairly paranoid fellow as these things go, but I do not believe this is a conspiracy. There are weak people in this world who will take solace in these searches. Isn't it a simpler explaination that the proponents are such weak people and not conspirators in a complicated plot to foster totalitarianism?
 
The airlines are absolutely allowed and entitled to search you and deny you boarding for a number of reasons. However, the federal government, in the form of the TSA, should not be responsible for the screening as that is a use of public monies to secure private companies.

The TSA and the security checkpoints enforce regulations set down by the FAA. A Federal agency set the regulations and a Federal agency enforces them.
No where does it say on an airplane ticket the airline policies forbids the hijacking of their aircraft.
The "special security fee" attached to airline tickets now is there to help offset the cost of security.

TSA= Thousands Standing Around.... Taking Scissors Away...... Totally Stupid Agency
 
So what is your counter suggestion? Do you think searches are useless?

You bet they are. Why? We are searching the wrong people!

Sorry but right now profiling is a necessary evil but we can't do that, nope not in the slightest. I flew out of Austin, DFW, and PDX a lot after 9/11 and what I saw was nothing short of disgusting!

I would stand in line at the checkpoints for 30 minutes waiting for my time to go through and get felt up by some punk but middle eastern men sure as hell were not getting felt up like the others. If they did not set off the metal detector they were waived right through and they never got pulled aside for the random gate checks either. When I went through and did not set off the metal detector I had to remove my shoes, had my carry on searched and tested for explosive traces, stand their spread eagle as every inch of my body was being felt up by some guy with curious hands all while my belt is undone and my pants were falling down from my ass. I never once saw a single middle eastern man have to remove his shoes before it became mandatory.

.... and don't even get me started on the harassment I watched the TSA put a poor women who was like 80 and in a wheel chair! I damn near beat the crap out of the snotty punk who treated her like a piece of garbage and his humiliating orders to her at the checkpoint were the ultimate slap in the face to being an American. I swear to God he was either on a power trip or trying to get her to perform for his own personal sick amusement.
 
So what is your counter suggestion? Do you think searches are useless?
Yes, the searches are useless. Anything short of searching EVERYONE and EVERYTHING leaves gaps that can be exploited - and considering how often airport security misses serious items (shotguns, etc.), even comprehensive search is ineffective. The whole premise is deeply, fundamentally, obviously flawed.

The counter suggestion is exactly what the Founding Fathers implemented: the 2nd Amendment. Let everyone who wants to carry arms do so. Sure it won't stop all terrorism - it's ludicrous to think one can with any approach - but it will give pause to evildoers knowing that the "sheep", and not only the self-appointed oppressing sheepdogs, are heavily armed.

There's something fundamentally wrong when there is a threat to life among us, and the government's reaction is to DISARM THE PEOPLE.
 
So what is your counter suggestion? Do you think searches are useless?

Bomb dogs, maybe? Not full proof, but probably better than the searches. Non-invasive, and just as effective. Maybe moreso.
 
Just to accentuate my point:

I'm not talking "one person might slip thru". I'm talking wholesale ineffectiveness of searching.

Do you realize HOW MANY people ride the NY subways every day? The numbers and rate are staggering. The searches going on now are a pathetically tiny number compared to those unsearched. We're not talking airline searches where everyone gets it - we're talking a 1:1000 or worse search rate. Staggeringly bad.

And considering that anyone targeted for searching can just walk away, what good is this?

Consider the London attacks. Four simultanious bombers. Given a 1:1000 or worse chance that any of them, in NY, would be searched, they're getting on that train unchecked. If, by staggering coincidence, one DID get picked for searching, all he need do is walk away - and pick an alternate, comparably crowded, detonation point a few feet & minutes away.

Those advocating NY subway "security checks" need to explain how they expect this will amount to anything. It's such a staggeringly bad, stupid, & inept attempt at "security" against an intelligent & rare threat that the pro-4th-Amendment crowd should NOT be the ones doing the explaining.

If the pointlessness of these searches isn't self-evident I don't know what is.
 
If I were a subway policeman who was ordered to search knapsacks and such for bombs carried by suicide bombers...I'd change career paths. Like Police Commisioner, Sir, here's the badge, YOU look for the bombs.

+1. The only thing the searches will do is make the terrorists wait for rush hour and the inevitable bottle neck. As soon as they are likely to get searched, boom.

The searches are worse than useless. They are now triggering events.
 
There's something fundamentally wrong when there is a threat to life among us, and the government's reaction is to DISARM THE PEOPLE.
This was my reaction after 9/11 too. I had been carrying a knife with me at all times for almost all of my adult life. Not only are they every day valuable tools (I don't understand anyone who doesn't carry a blade), but if you know how to use one (studied martial arts for many years since a teenager), they are damned effective weapons at close range. ALWAYS carried my knife with me on airplanes until 9/11, and would have used it if need be to deal with blade wielding hijackers. All I did was put it in the little basket when I went through the metal detector, and they gave it back to me on the other side. Only one time did a security guard state that I couldn't have the knife, to which I just quoted her the regulation allowing blades less than three inches long. She took out a ruler, and saw that it was a tenth of an inch under that, and gave it back to me. Then comes 9/11, and now I can't bring a knife on an airplane. Are we the public safer because I am unarmed? Ridiculous! We are much more helpless now that I, and everyone else, am unarmed. Bad guys will find ways around metal detectors, but habitual law abiders, like myself, will just leave our knives at home. Will someone please tell me how this helps?
 
Ever been in NYC during the morning or evening rush? Thousands of people go through the subways, the majority of whom are carrying some sort of bag, backpack, briefcase, laptop computer case, etc. Now, imagine you're a NYPD Transit Officer, told to look in the bags for bombs. Ignore the immediate desire to resign for a moment, or the idiocy of having the average street cop lok for a bomb. Who do you stop and search of the thousand people passing into the station around you? Answer: as few as possible, because you don't want to delay these people any more than you must, else a riot break out.

So, what does the cop start to do? Well, he either gets real complacent, letting pretty much everyone pass, or just glancing in an open bag. (Ever been through one of these "security checks" with a pack? I went through one at a water park this summer. Open the main compartment. Guy looks inside briefly, you go on. Forget that that towel is covering anything, or there are another 12 compartments. Move along. People are waiting.) Or, he stops everyone, gets complaints, and gets reassigned.

This is just likesobriety check-points, in that it is a feel good, P.R. based move that is unlikely to be effective against the real problem, but is something to hold up and say "we're doing something!"

So, where are the tech people with the latest anti-explosive device?
 
The Founders stood up for their rights in the face of the world's largest superpower. Yet now we're being intimidated by the mere thought that terrorists might want to bomb a subway. What sorry, spineless cowards we are.
Yeah, this is amazing. Even people I thought were staunch conservatives, when I express my anger about this, say, "Well, you know it's a different world now after 9/11." They don't seem to see the bigger picture. What are we fighting for if not our liberties under the Constitution? This is nothing less than the very soul of our nation, for Pete's sake. "What does it profit a man [or nation] if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?" We are exchanging our nation's soul (the liberties men fought and died for from 1776 onward) for a temporary sense of false security. I would much rather take the slight chance of being a victim of terrorism than lose even one of my precious liberties under our Constitution. How far we have strayed from the words of Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death."
 
unreasonable

SEARCHES and Seizures that is what it says you will be free from.

So if we are afraid of terrorists with bombs, and they have been carring them in bags, looking in bags is a REASONABLE search. SEE its fits in perfectly with the constitution.

Do I like it??? no way, will I be submitting, NFW, I also won't be riding public transit either. The searches are utterly and completely worthless. especially with all the PC crapolla.

If you wear your traditional middleeastern dress, a chaddor, or a burka, you WILL NOT BE SEARCHED, that would be racial profiling.
Israel which requires paper be shown, searches every bag, searches every person with no PC rules about profiling, and has years of experience with this is still not able to stop the bombers. Do you think we will be more effective???????? :banghead: :scrutiny:

BAAAAAAAAAA, BAAAAAAAAA, BAAAAAAA thats the sound of bleeting sheep, this crap-olla makes them feel better. It makes it seem that Big MAMMY government is keeping them all Safey wafey all snuggly wuggly in the bussom of her love feeding them milkey from her nipple and using her big hanky to wipe the poop from their little Tush, thats why this is being done.

My local news was interviewing folks at the SEPTA station asking if they felt this was a violation of their rights. Everyone they interviewed said "BAAAAAAAA, BAAAAAAAAAAA" like the good sheep they are. The interviewer said he was surprised that no one Objected!!!!!!!!!!
 
Unreasonable SEARCHES and Seizures that is what it says you will be free from.
"Unreasonable," in the context of the Fourth Amendment, means that you do not have probable cause that the individual whose effects you are searching is a criminal. A reasonable search means that, based on the evidence available to you, the individual would be deemed by a reasonable person to be more than fifty percent likely to be carrying a bomb. Has nothing to do with any general concerns. If carrying packages is a general concern, then you are at liberty to lobby your representative to have the carrying of any sort of package outlawed. Good luck.
 
Hey, what the hell, let's just not do anything then. Make you happy? :neener:

What else should be done. The folks in charge are under ALOT of pressure to live up to their "responsibility to keep Americans safe". And we all know they cave to any pressure.

I don't much care for the searches either, and I certainly wouldn't want to be one of the poor souls that has to do that job, but in all seriousness... What do we do? Do we just sit and wait to get hit again? Does anyone else think that being proactive is better than being reactive?
 
Hey, what the hell, let's just not do anything then. Make you happy?

What else should be done. The folks in charge are under ALOT of pressure to live up to their "responsibility to keep Americans safe". And we all know they cave to any pressure.

I don't much care for the searches either, and I certainly wouldn't want to be one of the poor souls that has to do that job, but in all seriousness... What do we do? Do we just sit and wait to get hit again? Does anyone else think that being proactive is better than being reactive?
Baaaah Baaaaaaaaah Baaaah. Line up for your sheering, little lamb.

Where are our Patrick Henries today?
 
I am torn on this

I would say that if more people would take responsibility for their safety this would be less likely and these searches wouldn't be necessary.

The problem has been a long time in the making. First "civilized ideals", then a general creation of the idea that the government is here to protect you. then that since the government is there to protect you, then you don't need to protect yourself, which in turn fostered an oblivious group of people who have no idea of safety or their surroundings. These people are breeding... If people would just realize that government cannot protect you and that it is up to every individual to both protect themselves and their own, there would be alot less of this stuff happeneing. I am not advocating vigilantism... but I am advocating each and EVERYONE perform their responsibility to take an active role in national security as duly designated "militia persons" (and I mean militia in the context dictated in the BoR, not the "bad word", militia :rolleyes: ) as designated in the BoR.

As long as people keep whining about protection instead of doing what is in my opinion their civic duty, this encroachment on rights will occur. YOU GIVE UP RIGHTS EVERY TIME YOU DECIDE SOMEONE ELSE SHOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR SAFETY. :banghead: This should be one of those "things that make you go DUH!" statements.
 
The founding fathers would weep.

That was not their preferred response to oppression and I don't believe it would be descriptive of the action they'd take were they alive today. In fact these extremely brave men would probably take high offense to your implication. :)
 
The problem is that when "X" amount of innocent men, women and children are murdered in this way, people see how it could easily have be their own. And, Americans in general are a compassionate and empathetic people when it comes to anyone loosing their children or family members, especially to an act of murderous terror.

Because of these two things, people expect and demand some sort of protection. The day when we do get attacked again I fully expect to hear, we have not done enough. There will be charges from everywhere, throwing blame. The first thing out of the bag would be, "why didn't they just check the bags of the people that got on the bus? Our children would be alive today if they would have done that one simple thing."

At that point, it becomes very difficult to say those families and other Americans that are hurting for them and worried for their own, "sorry, we can't".

It's much easier to type on the Internet about a few hundred people getting killed and saying what's the big deal? Until it happens to your family or, when you're holding your wife, little boy or little girls bloody dead body in your arms. It becomes very easy for people to justify bag checks after seeing or experiencing such acts of murder through terror.

I'm not saying whether this is right or wrong, but rather pointing out a couple of reason these searches happen and why there is not an uproar about them as a whole.
 
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Hey, what the hell, let's just not do anything then. Make you happy?

What else should be done. The folks in charge are under ALOT of pressure to live up to their "responsibility to keep Americans safe". And we all know they cave to any pressure.

I don't much care for the searches either, and I certainly wouldn't want to be one of the poor souls that has to do that job, but in all seriousness... What do we do? Do we just sit and wait to get hit again? Does anyone else think that being proactive is better than being reactive?

We take the fight so hard and so fast to their doorstep that they beg for us to stop. Make the peacable Muslims of the world do the work for us. If they don't want their holy sites wiped out because extremists are committing murder in the name of their religion, then they had better start taking the capture and execution of such vermin seriously.

A huge part of the problem is that the rest of the Muslim world, while not actively bombing us, sure as heck isn't doing much about preventing the kind of hateful indoctrination and financing that breeds and funds terrorism. Complacency might as well be a tacid endorsement. I say practice what you supposedly preach and prevent this kind of murder and intolerance by seeking out those who murder in the name of Allah.
 
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