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New member here with some rimfire questions

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by rhp997, Jul 20, 2012.

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  1. rhp997

    rhp997 Member

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    I have a couple of questions for the rimfire experts.I have a stock 10/22 that I am slowly converting to a more tactile rifle. So far i have a midwest industries rail, harris bipod and a BSA Sweet 22 scope (3x9x40 with changeable turrets). My long term goal is to get a better quality trigger, hogue stock, and a .920 barrel. I took it to the range today and was very unimpressed with my groups. I was shooting federal bulk ammo.My question is this was did it group poorly because:
    a) cheap bulk ammo
    b) factory trigger and barrel
    c) poor quality optics

    What do y'all think

    a693481d-a721-1eab.jpg
     
  2. Odd Job

    Odd Job Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi, welcome to THR.
    In my experience the likely candidate is the ammunition. But....it could be a number of things. Here's what you need to do:

    1) Verify that another shooter who is experienced, gets the same bad groups as you. If he does, you need to change the ammo first and then after that look at the scope.

    2) If he doesn't get the same bad groups, you have a technique issue. It's either related to how you are looking through the scope or how you are holding the rifle when you pull the trigger. Have the better shooter observe you while you shoot: maybe he can see something obvious that you are doing wrong.

    3) If the rifle has bad groups with a variety of ammo and shooters you will have to try a different scope, or possibly even no scope (put the rifle in a fixed rest). If it still shoots all over the place with a variety of ammo, you may have a crap barrel.
     
  3. jrdolall

    jrdolall Member

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    2 questions. What was the distance? What is your definition of a good group?

    Outside of 50 yards I don't think most of the bulk ammo is going to be what I would call accurate. My hunting .22 is a Winchester 77 tube that is way more accurate than I am. 1" groups at 50 yards are the norm using match ammo but that turns into 2" groups with bulk. I know there are people out there who can be accurate at 100 yards but that is not something I routinely try. I have shot prairie dogs at over 100 yards with no wind. No doubt someone will tell you that they can shoot ragged holes at 1,000 yards with their 10/22. We shoot mostly steel spinner targets with all our .22s.

    I have 2 10/22s and one is tacticalized while the older gun is stock. Neither will shoot groups as good as the Winchester for me but I still shoot them a lot more because of the mag availability.
     
  4. BCRider

    BCRider Member

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    It's hard to say if your expectations are realistic or not since you haven't told us the size of group that you and the gun produced.

    At 50 yards I would not be blaming the scope though. While the BSA Sweet 22's are considered a cheap scope there's simply not much recoil from a .22. Assuming the ring mounts are the correct size for the scope barrel and decently mounted the assembly to the rail there should not be any issues with that side of the equation.

    I've got an old Cooey bolt rifle that has the same scope. I freely admit that I'm not a skilled bench rest shooter. But the scope and shooting with basic Blazer ammo let's me put 10 rounds into a spot just a hair over the size of a quarter at 50 yards. Ruger 10/22 stock barrels are not all that known for producing tightly accurate groups it seems. So if your groups are around or slightly bigger than this, maybe about the size of a golf ball, then I think that would be about right.
     
  5. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    I'd bet that it's a combination of things. The ammunition is the first thing to try. Get a decent box of match (Eley, RWS, or even Aguila) and see how it does; you'll likely see a noticeable improvement, but I doubt that it will be a tackdriver. The next step is a trigger job or new trigger group, which will probably tighten things up a bit more. If you're still dissatisfied, you'll need to spend the big money on a new stock and barrel (IME a good free-floated stock will yield the biggest improvement). If you want to keep the rifle reasonably light for field use I highly recommend a Tactical Solutions barrel, if not just about any reputable bull barrel should result in a respectable improvement.

    I hate BSA optics, but the Sweet series has been an exception in my limited experience (it should be noted that I do not own one, and that's not likely to change, but I have used a few and they worked fine for the rifles they were mounted on), so I doubt it's the culprit unless the mount/rings are loose or you twist the knobs a great deal (I'd be very surprised if the adjustments are repeatable).

    :)
     
  6. kingcheese

    kingcheese Member

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    Well, the first step is to look through your rifle, specifically how the scope is mounted, make sure it solid, no play what so ever, i had a similar problem so i cranked down my scope rings and it solved the issue, check the stock to make sure it ain't lose either, then change ammo, don't just try one type, try 7 or 8 till one can be decided one is better, my ten 22 with a barska scope will get me a squirrel at 30-40yards reliably, check to make sure barrel is straight and crown is clean, and for the love of god let the inside of the barrel get a little dirty, you won't have much accuracy if you try to compete with a rimfire and its clean
     
  7. WoodchuckAssassin

    WoodchuckAssassin Member

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    I'd have to go with the optics as the culprit. My stock 10/22 (and everyone elses I know), shoots straight with anything I feed it. Check to make sure the scope rail is mounted as tight as you can get it. I recently read an article in Field and Stream about people who sold a perfectly good rifle because it "wouldn't shoot".

    After checking that, I would make a detail strip and make sure there's no funny business happening inside the trigger assembly...even though I really doubt that's where the problem is. When in doubt, call the local gunsmith - there's always something new to learn.
     
  8. NeuseRvrRat

    NeuseRvrRat Member

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    this.

    nobody can even make a worthwhile reply to this thread until you tell us the sizes. some pics of the groups and a description of shooting position and conditions would be even better. you didn't even tell us what kind of ammo you were shooting.
     
  9. rhp997

    rhp997 Member

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    I was shooting about 2-3 inch groups @ 50 yds. I had a very stable rest and consider myself a proficient shooter. I was hoping for about about 1 inch groups; it sounds like I'm gonna need to make some modifications to acceive that.
     
  10. NeuseRvrRat

    NeuseRvrRat Member

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    sounds like a typical stock 10/22 with cheap ammo and a barrel band.
     
  11. kingcheese

    kingcheese Member

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    Stop modifying and start studying is my advice, ain't no need to dump money and time in a gun if one bolt is a little loose
     
  12. Bushpilot

    Bushpilot Member

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    rhp997, welcome to the HR. I don't think your group size expectations are too far off. Most stock 10/22's with decent ammo should shoot about 1"-1.5," 5 shot groups at 50 yards. Before you go spending a lot of money modding your 10/22 try some of the other brands mentioned like Eley and RWS if you can find them or even any of the standard brand's top shelf stuff. Stay away from the hyper velocity types. You might even try some subsonics. Pick a calm day. Make sure your bases and rings are tight and your scopes AO ring is adjusted to get rid of any parallax. Make sure you position you cheek on the same spot on the rifle stock each time. Then try it again with you new variety of ammo. If your groups don't improve do as Odd Job suggested and have someone else shoot your rifle. If it still doesn't shoot I would try replacing the scope because that is most likely the weakest link in your current set up. Before you do replace the barrel and stock on your current rifle just keep in mind that for the amount of money (or even less) that you will spend modding your rifle you can probably buy a new or used CZ that will have no problem shooting .5" groups at 50 yards if you do your part. Good Luck
     
  13. browningguy

    browningguy Member

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    With the set up you have 2-3" with cheap bulk ammo is about the norm in my experience. Here are some 50 yards groups from my 10-22 as it came from the factory and after a Green Mountain barrel and Fajen stock. It still has the original trigger which is the next thing I will do on it.

    Minimags before

    1022elymatchcciminimagoriginal.jpg

    Minimags after

    1022cciminimagimproved.jpg

    Eley Match before

    1022elymatchoriginal.jpg

    Eley Match after

    1022elymatchimproved.jpg

    ruger100-22right.gif
     

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  14. Furncliff

    Furncliff Member

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    RHP997. I shoot mostly rimfire. Mostly from the bench with a good rest and butt support, I'm old and shaky and need all the help I can get. At fifty yards my goal is sub 1/2' from my best rifles (CZ's and Brno's), with my good ammo.

    Drop back to shooting at 25 yards. Buy a bunch of different ammo. Get some medium priced target ammo like Wolf MT or SK Standard plus. These are all standard velocity, about 1080 fps. They may not have enough umph to function in your Ruger, but if they do function you may see a lot of improvement in your groups because these brands are known for their consistency.

    Add in some ammo next up on the velocity chain. Maybe something around 1200fps. Keep going up, try to keep your selection to lead bullets.

    Ammo plays a very big role in rimfire accuracy, and one gun can prefer one brand over another. After you've run the test for best ammo, then look at the other factors.

    Good Luck.
     
  15. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    Furncliff, standard velocity and subsonic match (which is just barely subsonic) works fine in my 10/22. Every rifle shoots a bit differently, but for general target work (and most hunting needs) I would stick with the lower velocity stuff, as it typically shoots much better.

    :)
     
  16. TonyAngel

    TonyAngel Member

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    DO NOT do this. If you do, you'll probably strip the screw holes for the rail. The receiver is made of soft aluminum and the holes don't go very deep. You just want to tighten them to spec, which I believe is 15 inch-lbs.

    As for your groups, I have a super hot rodded 10/22 that I have bedded in a way that I haven't seen any place that allows me to run the barrel full floated. This rifle, shooting its favorite lot of Eley Black Box will keep all of the rounds in 1/2" circle. Well, 95% of them anyway. Nobody's perfect all of the time. Today, while practicing for a 200 yard match that I have tomorrow, I shot several groups that were 1" and under at 100 yards, with the same lot of Eley. I'm just trying to give you an idea of what the rifle is capable of, while keeping in mind that it isn't any where near stock.

    At 50 yards shooting bulk ammunition, my groups tend to run about 1 to 1.5". At one hundred yards, the groups more than double. If you really want to see what your rifle is capable of, without breaking the bank, get yourself some Wolf Match Target, SK Standard Plus or even CCI Standard Velocity. Even the worst lots of these will shoot better than bulk ammunition.

    You should't let the groups that you are getting discourage you. It's about what I'd expect with a stock rifle and cheap ammunition.

    If you aren't afraid to tinker, go over the rimfirecentral.com those guys are nuts about 10/22s. Check into pillar bedding the lug, bedding the stock and barrel and getting rid of that barrel band.
     
  17. Husker1911

    Husker1911 Member

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    First thing I'd do is experiment with a variety of ammo. Each .22 rimfire firearm is subject to preferring a certain ammo. It's like gravity, it's the law.
     
  18. Ky Larry

    Ky Larry Member

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    Bushpilot nailed it. I've owned Wincheter, Remington, T/C, Marlin, Ruger and Savage rimfires. After I got my first CZ-452 .22lr, all of them are gone. I now have 5 CZ Model-452s and a -455, all in .22lr. For me, CZ's just shoot better.
     
  19. Ar180shooter

    Ar180shooter Member

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    To rule out ammunition issues, you need to go to your local hunting store and buy 1 box of every ammunition they have, and test them from a bench at 25 or 50 yards. I did a similar thing with my Ruger 10/22, and found that CCI Blazer performed very well, 10 shots in ~1" @50 yards.

    Don't judge the accuracy or reliability of a rifle on cheap bulk ammo. Buy something decent like CCI Mini Mags and test it out. Also, improving the trigger will help significantly. Many of the things you can do only require simple tools and some JB weld. Polishing up a few key parts, along with 2 or 3 other minor additions will greatly improve the stock trigger.
     
  20. kBob

    kBob Member

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    The first thing I would advise is to google Rimfire Central and go to the 10-22 section and post under the anything 10/22 thread.

    Barring that There are some great suggestions here.

    After checking to be sure everything was snug, like the scope rail (but seriusly listen to the recomendation not to over tighten the screws for the rain into the aluminum recever, lock tite is your friend) and mounts and the action screw that holds the gun together and entirely removing the front band I agree with the try different ammo crowd first.

    There are about a bigillion things one can do to a 10-22 and someone has proof that any of them alone or in combination work for them.

    Going to a site dedicated to tweking and worshipping the 10-22 will give you better access to folks that have done it all to the 10-22. Join and use the search functions. Read the "stickies".

    Good luck with what may well become a new addiction.

    -kBob
     
  21. Texan Scott

    Texan Scott Member

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    No matter WHAT you do to modify the gun, if you're shooting for accuracy, you're gonna want to 'correct' this... and do it FIRST, so you can accurately assess the need for further tweaking. Welcome, and good shooting!
     
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