Newbie Questions

[St8LineGunsmith]

what do you mean by fit compairison?

I would say that the replicas are as srtong as the relics
if you decide to go with brass just keep the charges light and it should last you a life time another thing to consider is that the 51 colts did not have a back strap so the brass frames will be weaker than the 58 Remington brass frames
in my opinion If I were to get a 51 navy I would get the steel frame
remember the confederacy had steel frame revolvers also

if you have the opportunity to do some side by side comparisons and actually hold the pistols to get a feel of the different models and the weight comparisons between the brass and steel you could better determine which model you will like most.
the weight diffrence is another reason I like the 58 8" steel frames better than the brass models. I can definately feel the diffrence between the two types of metals.

 

[Foto Joe]

Oh boy, here we go once again....

The brass vs steel debate can rage on but I still think that handled properly a brass frame gun makes a great starter gun for somebody interested in Black Powder revolvers. My preference runs towards the "Fake" Navy, but that's just me. Fondle both and make your decision based on what fits "you" best.

If you feel that you need "historically correct" then you'll probably find more accurate guns in steel.

 

[Pancho]

Consider that we've come a long way with metallurgy in the past 150 years and that the North and South were trying desperately to arm between 3 and 4 million men I wouldn't think I'd worry about the reproduction's strength or consistency compared to the relics.

 

[Blue Brick]

OK...So 44 or 36?

 

[Blue Brick]

if you decide to go with brass just keep the charges light and it should last you a life time

Differences in light load vs. heavy loads?

 

[Foto Joe]

Brass = less than 20gr

Steel = however much will fit 20-35 gr

Remember, big BOOM doesn't necessarily = accurate gun

 

[Blue Brick]

Is 15gr a lot?

 

[Blue Brick]

If the bullets are 45 Cal, what center fire cartridge would it be similar to ballistically? Like a 455 Webley?

 

[St8LineGunsmith]

Oh boy, here we go once again....

The brass vs steel debate can rage on but I still think that handled properly a brass frame gun makes a great starter gun for somebody interested in Black Powder revolvers. My preference runs towards the "Fake" Navy, but that's just me. Fondle both and make your decision based on what fits "you" best.

If you feel that you need "historically correct" then you'll probably find more accurate guns in steel.

if your comment was directed at me was it really necessary?
I was simply informing the OP with valid and accurate information about Brass being a softer metal than steel which handled improperly or loaded with a normal powder charge can bend or stretch a brass framed revolver.
and IIRC i did not warn against buying one in fact I think I remember stating if handled with care it would last a life time then you went on to pretty much parrot what I just sgot through saying.
then went on to validate that brass is weaker material by answering his question about powder charges.
if you did not direct that at me then disregard my remarks.

 

[St8LineGunsmith]

If the bullets are 45 Cal, what center fire cartridge would it be similar to ballistically? Like a 455 Webley?

it would probably have about the same knock down power as a 9mm kurz. without the caliber compairison.
never seen a .455 webley so I could not make a compairison based on that caliber size
is the 455 webley round a black powder or a smokeless round and how many grains of powder is the charge?

 

[Majes]

There were six main types of .455 Webley, this first of which was black but all the later ones used cordite as far as I know. In it's day It was rated superior to the .45 Colt in stopping power.

Of course not all agreed with this statement which is why we have 45 acp today, in some sense anyway. There was even an M1911 'British Service Model' chambered for 45 Webley.

I wouldn't think many here would compare modern replica BP arms to modern smokless 45 colt or acp, but perhaps they were close back in the day.

duelist1954 did a nice video series comparing conicals and round balls that you would likely find interesting.

 

[St8LineGunsmith]

There were six main types of .455 Webley, this first of which was black but all the later ones used cordite as far as I know. In it's day It was rated superior to the .45 Colt in stopping power.

Of course not all agreed with this statement which is why we have 45 acp today, in some sense anyway. There was even an M1911 'British Service Model' chambered for 45 Webley.

I wouldn't think many here would compare modern replica BP arms to modern smokless 45 colt or acp, but perhaps they were close back in the day.

duelist1954 did a nice video series comparing conicals and round balls that you would likely find interesting.

according to ballistics the .44 Remington has some pretty impressive numbers in comparison to the Webley .455 cartridged round's


Gun Barrel Powder by Volume Bullet Weight Average Velocity Calculated Energy Calculated Momentum
.44 Remington, 1858 5.5 inch 28 grains 3F Pyrodex 138 grain, .451 ball 593 ft/s 108 ft-lbs 11.69 ft-s
.44 Remington, 1858 5.5 inch 32 grains 3F Pyrodex 138 grain, .451 ball 700 ft/s 150 ft-lbs 13.80 ft-s
.44 Remington, 1858 5.5 inch 32 grains 3F Pyrodex 140 grain, .454 ball 850 ft/s 224 ft-lbs 17.00 ft-s
.44 Remington, 1858 5.5 inch 35 grains 3F Pyrodex 138 grain, .451 ball 875 ft/s 234 ft-lbs 17.25 ft-s
.44 Remington, 1858 5.5 inch 35 grains 3F Pyrodex 140 grain, .454 ball 945 ft/s 277 ft-lbs 18.90 ft-s
.44 Remington, 1858 5.5 inch 35 grains 3F Pyrodex 143 grain, .457 ball 960 ft/s 292 ft-lbs 19.61 ft-s
.44 Remington, 1858 5.5 inch 37 grains 3F Pyrodex 138 grain, .451 ball 950 ft/s 276 ft-lbs 18.72 ft-s
.44 Remington, 1858 5.5 inch 37 grains 3F Pyrodex 143 grain, .457 ball 960 ft/s 292 ft-lbs 19.61 ft-s
.44 Remington, 1858 5.5 inch 42 grains 3F Pyrodex 143 grain, .457 ball 1019 ft/s 329 ft-lbs 20.81 ft-s
.44 Remington, 1858 5.5 inch 46 grains 3F Pyrodex 143 grain, .457 ball 1050 ft/s 350 ft-lbs 21.45 ft-s
.44 Remington, 1858 5.5 inch 37 grains 3F GEOX Black Powder 140 grain, .454 ball 898 ft/s 250 ft-lbs 17.96 ft-s
.44 Remington, 1858 5.5 inch 40 grains 3F GEOX Black Powder 140 grain, .454 ball 949 ft/s 280 ft-lbs 18.98 ft-s
.44 Remington, 1858 5.5 inch 42 grains 3F GEOX Black Powder 140 grain, .454 ball 964 ft/s 289 ft-lbs 19.28 ft-s

.455 Webley & Scott
bullet weight 200
Muzzle velocity FPS 775
Muzzle energy 265

Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy
265[1] FMJ 700 ft/s (210 m/s) 289 ft·lbf (392 J)
265 gr (17.2 g) 600 ft/s (180 m/s) 212 ft·lbf (287 J)
265 gr (17.2 g) 757 ft/s (231 m/s) 337 ft·lbf (457 J)
265 gr (17.2 g) 600 ft/s (180 m/s)[2] 220 ft·lbf (300 J)

 

[St8LineGunsmith]

my prefrence is the .45 cal but i heard rumor that the.36 cal is more accurate but I dont own one to make any side by side comparisons so I think comments like that can be some what biased opinions.
lot of guys winning a lot of cowboy competetions with the "less Accurate" .45 C&B revolver
accuracy with these BP revolvers depends mostly on the powder charge used
I have found my model to be dead nuts at 50 yardswill produce 2" and tighter groups with 25 Gn of powder and a .451 dia 130 gn ball
32 gn of powder and the same size ball 100 yards will get me anywhere from 1" to 3" groups depending on what kind of a day I am having.
I very seldom shoot from 100 yards and these shots are with a 8" barrel with target sights.
most of my shooting is at 25 to 50 yards at 25 yards my groups with 20 gn of powder are consistent 1" or tighter grouping
If I am having a so so day I can keep the shots in the diamiter of a paper plate.


BTW these are powder loads you would not want to use in a brass framed revolver.
20 Gn would be the max load you would ever want to run through a brasser.

 

[brushhippie]

I started with .44s and have gone to .36, I like the .36 myself.

 

[Blue Brick]

Ok…So if I want a (all brass) frame and grip or (all steel) frame and grip with 44 cal, but with zero ginger bread, what should I get? Looks like either Griswold or London? Looks like London has a little ginger bread on the cylinder.

 

[Majes]

Well, it's really down to preference. There seem to be almost as many Remington fans here as Colt, so which ever you prefer. I prefer the Remington new model army in all steel. But if I wanted brass the 51 navy would be hard to beat at $179.00

http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/brow...SBC;MMcat104792580;cat104701680&WTz_stype=GNU

 

[St8LineGunsmith]

Majes
I agree with that 100%
good price for the Remington brasser too.

 

[Blue Brick]

Besides the London model are there any other all steel models? Are all London models 36 cal?

 

[St8LineGunsmith]

I think the London plant only made the .36Caliber navy model and I think a .36 Caliber pocket model was all steel and iron I think london also produced the 1860 army model in .36 cal the london plant did not use brass.
Pietta is trying to be as historically accurate as possible in the diffrent colt and Remington models they produce.

 

[Majes]

Do you mean "all steel" including trigger guard and backstrap ?

 

[St8LineGunsmith]

Ya the models made in the London factory did not use brass.

and disregard the comment about Pietta trying tp be historically accurate because there was never an original brass frame 1858 Remington made for either side nor was there a .45 caliber 1851 Colt navy with an octagonal barrel.

The Griswold and Gunnison brass frame copys of the colt navy was .36 Cal and had round barrels.

Any confederate soldier who had a Remington or colt had an original model captured from a killed enemy soldier or either purchased one before the start of the war.

I just thought this would be info you might want to know if you are trying to be period accurate.

 

[Majes]

I can't say one way or another of historical correctness other than I know as you say St8LineGunsmith, all Remingtons did go to the North after the war began. I was just curious if that the fact pretty much everything has some brass on it except the London's might be why he liked em.

Some have speculated that the south used brass during this time but if that is true that would not have affected Colt or Remington would it ?

I dunno, for me just the fact it's a replica made in Italy relieves me of any concerns I might have of historical correctness, but others feel very different. So thanks for pointing out that London didn't use any brass components, another day when a visit here learned me something

 

[St8LineGunsmith]

ya Griswold and Gunnison made .36 caliber revolvers with brass frames and round barrels that were pretty much exact copies of the 1851 colt navy models except the round barrels and brass frames and all were .36 cal.
the Spiller and Burr revolvers were also brass frame.
the purpose for making the frames from brass was they could be cast with little machine work thus making faster production times with the limited number of human resources. i don't think it had anything to do with an Iron shortage, it was just that using brass was more time and cost effective opposed to forging them from iron. however there were several southern companys making iron frame navy copy revolvers for the CS in small quantities due to the process of forging the frames out of iron was a more timely process than casting them out of brass.

 

[pghrich]

I have a steel frame 1858 8 inch barrel, and a brass frame 1858 bisson, and a brass frame 1851, all pietta's from cabelas, all came in perfect shape, all have been finely tuned by me, and all shoot 25grains of 3f goex with cornmeal, and a .454 hornady ball, all knock down pins at 25yards offhand, the bison is of course the most accurate, the 1851 [to me] feels the best in my hands, and so far the brass 1851 shows no signs of fatigue, pghrich

 

[Foto Joe]

St8LineGunsmith,

The comment was not directed at you, if you re-read my post I think.k that you'll see that I agree with you.

The brass vs steel battle has been discussed here MANY times, sometimes pretty vocally that's all. As far as historical correctness is concerned I think those guns are typically steel but about the only way to get a historically correct gun today is to lay your hands on an original, although some repros are better than others.

My favorite shooter is a '51 Confederate "Fake" Navy.