No Confidence in Small Guns!

[Girodin]

Also shoot well is not a very good term. It's too subjective. But I think the main jist of this discussion is that a smaller gun is harder to shoot accurately. This is somewhat true, with a few exceptions.

In my humble opinion and experience it is not just an accuracy issue. In fact if we are talking 3 yards accuracy might be the least of the issues. I find, by using shot timer, that smaller guns are also slower with follow ups. I can make faster followups with my G26 than my LCP. I can make faster followups with a G34 than a Kahr P9. I also find that smaller guns tend to be harder to perform various manipulations on. Again it is much easier for me, and tends to be faster, to perform immediate action drills on a glock than an LCP. The more complicated such drills become the more than tends to be true.

I think these are some of the things in addition to accuracy that people mean when they say a small gun is not as easy to shoot well.

 

[spotch]

I'm fine with smaller guns, I love my lcr's. But they are harder to aim and fire, so I practice

 

[Kleanbore]

None of these dimunitive cute little pistols (often denoted as being for concealed carry) inspire me to actually use them for self-defense. They're hard-to-hold, hard to shoot, hard to aim, and hard to reload. The idea of actually pulling one out of a holster or pocket and depending on it to save your life seems almost suicidal lunacy! Count me a chicken, but believe I'd just as soon not carry, if its not something solid and reliable, and big enough to pack a punch.
Do others feel this way, or am I missing something?

I cannot see any logic at all in saying that one would rather carry nothing at all than a firearm that is less than ideal.

I do agree that to optimize the ease of concealment can lead to unacceptable compromises, and I would much rather carry a firearm that can be gripped well, aimed well, and fired rapidly than a pocket pistol, for primary carry.

 

[spotch]

Well, and you can get a shield or a kahr in .40cal, and a tiny xd in 45acp. Not to mention the scores of 357 snubs.

Not sure how much more of a punch youre going to need, unless you're facing grizzlys lol

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by spotch: Well, and you can get a shield or a kahr in .40cal, and a tiny xd in 45acp. Not to mention the scores of 357 snubs.

Not sure how much more of a punch youre going to need, unless you're facing grizzlys lol

I don't think anyone has mentioned "punch."

Rexter said this:

The ability to draw and fire quickly, with a secure, reliably repeatable grasp on the weapon, is so very important.

Girodin said this:

In my humble opinion and experience it is not just an accuracy issue. In fact if we are talking 3 yards accuracy might be the least of the issues. I find, by using shot timer, that smaller guns are also slower with follow ups. I can make faster followups with my G26 than my LCP. I can make faster followups with a G34 than a Kahr P9. I also find that smaller guns tend to be harder to perform various manipulations on. Again it is much easier for me, and tends to be faster, to perform immediate action drills on a glock than an LCP. The more complicated such drills become the more than tends to be true.

Grip length, sight radius, capacity, and recoil are extremely important; for primary carry, either a tiny .45 or a .357 snub would be far from ideal.

 

[spotch]

"punch" was mentioned in kleenbore's quote above my previous post. I've already said that I agree it's generally harder to shoot really small guns, I guess I'm now saying "let's not get carried away and start listing shortcomings that don't exist, or acting like the shortcomings that do exist are insurmountable".

 

[Girodin]

I don't think it is really a matter of "insurmountable" challenges as much as it is a matter of deciding where one is comfortable making compromises. I don't think anyone has asserted that it is not possible to use a small gun for self defense. No one has asserted one cannot reliably make hits at typical self defense distances. Nor has anyone said that one cannot clear malfunctions, perform reloads, etc with a small gun.

What they have said is that all of those things tend to be more difficult and/or slower.

I think it is rather safe to say that no one would knowing chose to use a "mouse gun" over a duty sized gun if they knew they were walking into a gun fight. However there are more than just considerations of the very most effective weapon when it comes to concealed carry. This tends to be particularly true for most people who have incredibly low odds of ever actually needing to use that gun in self defense.

Anyone carrying a handgun is making compromises for convenience, comfort, and practicability against "effectiveness." They are doing it by carry a handgun and not a rifle, a PDW or a sub gun. Where one decides to draw the line in trading effectiveness for comfort is a personal decision, much as is the decision to carry a gun in the first place. It is a calculation that can vary according to circumstances.

A common theme I notice in discussion of the size of gun/caliber of gun to be carried alone with topics such as how many rounds is enough, whether to carry reloads, etc is that people tend to act as if they have figured out the one true way and that anyone who does less is stupid and under armed and anyone doing more is a paranoid mall ninja.

I don't purport to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't carry. I do however strongly suggest that one dedicate some serious TRAINING, not just shooting, time to that weapon. This is important not only to build proficiency but it tends to expose inadequacies and limitations in fairly short order. Determine what reasonable performance bench marks are and then see if you can meet them with your equipment and means of carrying. I have seen many more people motivated to trade their pocket LCP as a primary for something else on the belt after doing some basic training with a shot timer to give them feedback. It is a personal choice but one that is best made as an informed decision.

 

[checkmyswag]

Im cool with small guns but not tiny ones.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

 

[spotch]

I don't think it is really a matter of "insurmountable" challenges as much as it is a matter of deciding where one is comfortable making compromises. I don't think anyone has asserted that it is not possible to use a small gun for self defense. No one has asserted one cannot reliably make hits at typical self defense distances. Nor has anyone said that one cannot clear malfunctions, perform reloads, etc with a small gun.

What they have said is that all of those things tend to be more difficult and/or slower.

I think it is rather safe to say that no one would knowing chose to use a "mouse gun" over a duty sized gun if they knew they were walking into a gun fight. However there are more than just considerations of the very most effective weapon when it comes to concealed carry. This tends to be particularly true for most people who have incredibly low odds of ever actually needing to use that gun in self defense.

Anyone carrying a handgun is making compromises for convenience, comfort, and practicability against "effectiveness." They are doing it by carry a handgun and not a rifle, a PDW or a sub gun. Where one decides to draw the line in trading effectiveness for comfort is a personal decision, much as is the decision to carry a gun in the first place. It is a calculation that can vary according to circumstances.

A common theme I notice in discussion of the size of gun/caliber of gun to be carried alone with topics such as how many rounds is enough, whether to carry reloads, etc is that people tend to act as if they have figured out the one true way and that anyone who does less is stupid and under armed and anyone doing more is a paranoid mall ninja.

I don't purport to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't carry. I do however strongly suggest that one dedicate some serious TRAINING, not just shooting, time to that weapon. This is important not only to build proficiency but it tends to expose inadequacies and limitations in fairly short order. Determine what reasonable performance bench marks are and then see if you can meet them with your equipment and means of carrying. I have seen many more people motivated to trade their pocket LCP as a primary for something else on the belt after doing some basic training with a shot timer to give them feedback. It is a personal choice but one that is best made as an informed decision.

I pretty much agree with all of this. Training and practice are essential, and even moreso on a gun that's super hard to shoot well. I'm a huge proponent of carry often/shoot (practice/train) often, no matter what gun is in question.


If the op doesn't feel comfortable with small guns then him carrying one is a terrible idea. That doesn't mean there aren't some great small carry guns that can and have proven to be sufficient for self defense time and time again, even if they're not glock 34s with 30 round magazines.

 

[JohnBT]

"I think it is rather safe to say that no one would knowing chose to use a "mouse gun" over a duty sized gun if they knew they were walking into a gun fight. "

A duty sized gun is a compromise too. Nobody with any sense would choose a handgun at all in that situation.

John

 

[Girodin]

Did you bother to read the rest of the post where I made that point?

Here was the relevant section:

Anyone carrying a handgun is making compromises for convenience, comfort, and practicability against "effectiveness." They are doing it by carry a handgun and not a rifle, a PDW or a sub gun

 

[PabloJ]

I would agree with you about the mini-revolvers, but I think a J-frame is a fine gun.

The stainless magnum J-frame revolver with 5" barrel chambered for .357 is very fine tool. Sadly it sold poorly so relatively few were made.:banghead:

 

[GEM]

That's because the SS J's are a touch too heavy for pocket carry. If you are going to belt carry, then current compact semis - like the G26s, Shields, Kahrs, etc. give you a better package.

As far as the minis - this is so old. They are what they are and they have worked for SD. I still would like someone to come up with a differential stopping the crime rate for them that is so much below other guns in the typical mugger be gone type of incident.

Certainly, I don't want to be in VT or Mumbai with a mini - but even with a G19 and two extra mags, I prefer to be elsewhere. It is risk evaluation situation not a dichotomous one. Few realize that. Gun folks like a dichotomy.

 

[Pyro]

I've never shot a full-sized handgun...err...anything more than a few shots from a friend's gun. All the handguns I own are small pocket guns..practice makes perfect! These little guns are much more natural to me than full-sized handguns..so much so I chose to carry my NAA Guardian rather than buying a 9mm Kel-Tec or Ruger.

 

[JohnBT]

"Did you bother to read the rest of the post where I made that point?"

I thought I read all six or seven paragraphs, but it looks like I missed that. I remember subgun and some other stuff.

John

 

[MCgunner]

I've never shot a full-sized handgun...err...anything more than a few shots from a friend's gun. All the handguns I own are small pocket guns..practice makes perfect! These little guns are much more natural to me than full-sized handguns..so much so I chose to carry my NAA Guardian rather than buying a 9mm Kel-Tec or Ruger.

Better said than I can do it, I guess. I don't NORMALLY go NAA Guardian size for carry unless I need super concealable. Now, that said, I got home from church today, took my NAA Black Widow and it's folding holster/grip out of my Blackhawk Number four pocket holster and replaced it with my 9mm Kel Tec.

Carry what you can and PRACTICE! If you refuse to carry anything less than a 1911, that's your decision, but I'm quite good with smaller guns and always have one with me, don't leave it back at the house or in the car.

Now, Tuesday, I'll probably wear my fanny pack, again. I run a paper route twice a week on Tuesday and Friday pretty much for something to do in retirement (probably going to quit, soon) and like to wear the fanny pack as it adds pockets for box keys and slugs to open the machines. It also has a 3" medium frame .357 magnum in a quick access pocket. My Kel Tec will remain in my pocket as a back up. No one on gun boards seem to think the fanny pack is a good idea, but I sorta like it if I wanna carry a bigger gun. It's like open carry without being illegal in Texas. It's really the only way I can carry a bigger gun all day with comfort and, believe me, I've used all sorts of IWB rigs trying.

 

[foghornl]

Micro-Sized weapons like the NAA minis, etc are intended (IMHO) to be "Last-Act-Of-Defiance-Stick-The-Muzzle-in-the-Perps-Nose" desperate measures arms.

Now, if I somehow found myself in such a situation, oh yeah...'Run Whatcha Brung'. Would absolutely use the rodent-weapon.

 

[Haywood]

I have carried all the above. At this point I will carry no less than Two 38 +P Snubs. Most of the time I carry Two 357 Snubs.

 

[velo99]

Ok ok ok. Gee guys let's look at a few things here. 25 yard shots in a shtf will land you in front of a grand jury on an aggravated assault charge or possibly murder.
Most situations we will shoot from 3 yards or less. At that distance we draw and shoot from a defensive position without using sights. Pumping lead into the center mass of the BG(s) is the goal. This whole thread was an interesting read in human interaction. Use what you have and don't die is the ultimate ending to what we are hoping to achieve. Survival is the end game what someone else chooses is his business.

 

[MCgunner]

Ok ok ok. Gee guys let's look at a few things here. 25 yard shots in a shtf will land you in front of a grand jury on an aggravated assault charge or possibly murder.
Most situations we will shoot from 3 yards or less. At that distance we draw and shoot from a defensive position without using sights

That's why I worry more about how the gun point shoots for me than absolute accuracy at 25 yards, but I do prefer accurate firearms, at least 4" at 25 yards. My NAA Black Widow shoots 3.5" groups off the bench at 25 yards to POA with Hornady CD, but it doesn't point near as well as my snubby, my P11, or especially my Radom P64. I don't find bigger guns point shoot any better for me out to 21 feet. I DON'T like carrying that little Black Widow unless I just absolutely HAVE to for concealment reasons. Church and the restaurant afterward are low threat situations, but I still remember a Lubys in Killeen in the early 90s. It ain't just the lack of pointability, though, but it is, after all, a .22 caliber weapon. Having shot hogs with my 9 and my .38 as well as .45 and .357, the two I have the most faith in are .357 magnum and 9mm +P in that order. I'll actually HUNT hogs, have killed hogs pistol hunting with the .357, though a much heavier load for that than I carry. .45 is a close second and I don't shoot or carry .45 +P, don't see the need. I'd carry it more, but 9mm +P being as effective as it is and being as carryable as it is, well, I just carry it more. This is MY logic, anyway. If I carry a big gun, more often than not it's a .357 magnum revolver. I've always liked .357 and have owned a number of revolvers in the caliber, have 3 now.

But, say it again, everyone's different. Carry what you're effective with.

Here is a gratuitous shot of me with my Kel Tec, a hog I trapped last fall. I ate him all up except have some sausage left. I usually just shoot 'em with whatever I'm carrying that day when I check the trap. I did have my muzzle loader with me this day, hunting with it, but I didn't wanna have to clean the danged thing, so I shot the pig with the 9.

 

[velo99]

MAC,
I carry a Ruger P89. I am a big guy and I like a full size pistol. I don't have a problem in the summer wearing over sized tee shirt & cargo shorts.
Nice kill with your 9 mm. I will go this fall when it cools off and try to bag one with my 45 colt. It's a New Vaquero with a 7 1/2 inch barrel in stainless.

 

[kcshooter]

I don't see how NAA mini revolvers fit into the same category as J-frames and subcompact autos.

 

[Nushif]

But I can shoot the Remington, the Colt, and the Browning better (faster and more accurately, and can reload much quicker, if need be), and I find I can conceal them just as well under the clothing I wear [...]

It's clear you're neither female nor very fashionable then. 8) Don't get me wrong, I can hide large guns, myself, but my style is solidly in the 90's and not in the 2k area.
Also, nobody seems to be telling you what to wear at work. Sadly though, a lot of people out there aren't quite as lucky. 8)

 

[MCgunner]

MAC,
I carry a Ruger P89. I am a big guy and I like a full size pistol. I don't have a problem in the summer wearing over sized tee shirt & cargo shorts.
Nice kill with your 9 mm. I will go this fall when it cools off and try to bag one with my 45 colt. It's a New Vaquero with a 7 1/2 inch barrel in stainless.

Well, I own a P85 as well as my fave, a P90, and have a Sparks summer special for 'em. I had a P95 for a while, a little easier and fit in the same holster, but I traded it in on a stainless alloy.38 snubby when I got my permit in 96. I bought the P85 from a guy at work for $225 and it's a dandy for the price, but the trigger and accuracy is much better on my KP90DC. I like the P85, though, for range shooting and shot some IDPA with it cause the beveled mags help my reloading speed which ain't real great in the first place. Actually, that's why I got the P95, but this was Clinton era and the P85 the guy was selling had 3 original 15 round mags with it. All I could get for the P95 at the time were those lame 10 rounders with a plastic spacer on the bottom, how stupid. I coulda kept the P95 I guess, used the P85 mags in it, but I wanted that snubby for carry. I don't miss the P95 nor regret trading it.

I also have a Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt (4 5/8 barrel) stainless and a 6.5" .357 Blackhawk that's taken a few hogs and deer. .357 is pretty hot out of a 6.5" barrel. My 180 grain load is clocking 1400 fps, 785 ft lbs. My 300 grain .45 colt hot load is a might more impressive, though. Actually, my favorite hunting pistol is a Contender and for deer and hogs, I shoot a .30-30 12" hunter barrel and 2x optic. I have concealed even THIS gun under a hunting coat after a hunt in a convenience store getting coffee. I wasn't carrying it for defense, but in a UM's shoulder holster, it was doable that time of year. I wear an M65 field jacket on the deer stand when it's cold.

I'm not small, 6 ft 210, but just don't care for any IWB I've ever tried. I can't comfortably wear 'em, 100 dollar gun belts and all, all day every day. If you can, more power to you. Only way I can comfortably carry a big gun is in a fanny pack. OWB is better, but this is Texas and I dare not flash a gun barrel in public. I get paranoid, windy as it is down here and what with sometimes having to be a little active bending over to do stuff. I'm just better concealed with a pocket gun or the fanny pack and I don't wear the fanny pack much. It's great on a trip in the car, though, fast access even compared to IWB 4 oclock, sorta like cross draw, but with a cover. And, riding in a car seat IWB 4 oclock is painful after a while, especially in my Toyota with the wrap around buckets.

 

[GEM]

Ok ok ok. Gee guys let's look at a few things here. 25 yard shots in a shtf will land you in front of a grand jury on an aggravated assault charge or possibly murder.

Blanket statements like that are just silly. While rare, there have been long range SD shootings. Can we stay away from such pronouncements? :banghead: