"No Guns" in lease. What to do?

[blackcash88]

Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't say ANYTHING at all. I wouldn't want a land lord (and possibly maintenance crew) knowing I had firearms. The all have KEYS, you know, and, even if illegal, can access your apartment when you're not home as they please.

I'll NEVER rent again because we lost a cat the effin' maintenance man let out when he came in to change the A/C filter. Never saw her again and "routine maintenance" didn't require advance notification.

 

[Frank Ettin]

For silent, invisible, behind-close-doors violations of clauses in boilerplate leases, where there is no damage to the structure, no complaints from other tenants, and the rent is being paid on time?...

Yes. I'm not sure why. Maybe they want to have a reputation for being hard nosed. That might not be a bad thing in some markets.

If the landlord informs a tenant that he has to move out, and he says, "Okay, I'll move out," NONE of the scenario you made up could happen....

True enough. You as the tenant would save yourself a lot of grief if you just move out.

...You're having to invent extreme eviction scenarios, though, because as long as the tenant doesn't actively cause trouble if caught, refuse to leave, refuse to pay, etc., then you can't claim that, other than having to move, he will suffer any great loss -- because he won't....

What I'm describing is the worst case scenario. Other results are possible, depending on how the parties behave and where they see their respective interests. But you also can't predict that. You can't say for sure that a particular landlord is going to be reasonable to deal with, nor that a tenant will gracefully withdraw.

All one can know in advance is the absolute downside if the landlord plays hardball, and the tenant chooses to dig in his heels. You may think that it would not make sense for a landlord to do a thing, so you are guessing that he won't. But you're not the landlord. You don't know what his assessments of the marketing realities are in his locale are. And the landlord may, in fact, be dead wrong about where his interests lie and be walking the path toward ultimate failure in his business. But the fact that the landlord may be stupidly pushing things doesn't necessarily help the beleaguered tenant caught up in the landlord's bloodymindedness.

You're making an awful lot of assumptions about how a particular landlord, and a particular tenant, would act based on how you think they should act. But how they will in fact act will be based on a whole lot of idiosyncratic factors that neither you nor I have any way of knowing or predicting, including personality, personal business philosophy, assessment of market conditions and business acumen. So you're just guessing how the landlord will act. He may be a belligerent moron on the path to business suicide for all you know.

What I have described is the knowable result if the landlord chooses to fully enforce the lease and all his remedies under the lease, and available by law, if the tenant chooses to resist. I have outlined the legal rights of the landlord should he choose to pursue them. I have also outlined the legal risks to a recalcitrant tenant should the landlord be serious about enforcing the lease. How serious a particular landlord may be about enforcing his lease is something that neither you nor I can know for sure.

I don't know what your business experience and background is that has lead you to your conclusions. But in my 30 years of a successful business and legal career, I've seen an awful lot of things and learned that one can't categorically assume in the abstract that people will act in certain ways.

 

[RobNDenver]

Don't sign the lease. Scratch though the offending clause and tell them you will use your credit card to pay the deposit, first month's rent etc. If they accept that, great. If not, find someone else to rent from. They can't bar you based on color or creed, but they can keep you out of their property if they don't want you to possess a gun, or a pitbull, or practice with the garage band in the landlord's property.

You have a consititutional right to keep and bear arms. You do not have a constitutional right to rent this apartment.

 

[RobNDenver]

Gunny,

If I were a landlord - and I am - If I decided that I would not rent to tenants who drove Fords, I would be perfectly within my rights. Ford owners are not a protected class and as a private citizen I reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. So, if you come into my store wearing a sweatshirt that says Semper Fi. . . I can legally say that I only serve Air Force Vets and you have to leave because I am not serving Marines. I stand a chance of getting my brain housing group seriously dented, but you are leaving without the merchandise you were seeking, because there is no "constitutional right" that prevents me from being a jerk about running my business any more than you have "constitutional right" to buy something from me.

It doesn't matter if it is gas or dry cleaning or groceries. As long as I don't discriminate against you for reasons of race, religion, national origin, sexual orientation (state by state) I am free to do what I want.

 

[dalepres]

Typical anti-gun thread on a gun board.

 

[kingpin008]

Typical anti-gun thread on a gun board.

Care to explain that one? Just a tip though - because some of us don't automatically fall in line with the idea that property owners have to waive some of their rights just to allow others to possess firearms on their property, doesn't make us anti-gun. Just realistic.

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

Forget the Constitutional Arguments. What exactly does your lease say about termination? Penalty clauses? Attorney Fees?

I'd guess that Armed Bear is 100% correct. They are probably not going to evict you over this. Landlord lawyers have preprinted forms and charge $199.99 to file them. If you have something weird like this it will cost the landlord real money at $200/hr to figure out how to get you out.

If he tries to kick you out, file an answer so that he cannot default you. Once your landlord realizes how much it will cost to get rid of you he'll probably drop it.

The landlord isn't stupid, an otherwise good tenant vs. spending $5,000. Easy choice.

Think about it from the bad guys perspective, once you have him in the situation you want him in.

 

[Frank Ettin]

.... They are probably not going to evict you over this....

How do you know? Do you know this landlord and how he does business? Do you know how reasonable he is or how seriously he takes this clause in the lease? At this point, you're only guessing.

...Once your landlord realizes how much it will cost to get rid of you he'll probably drop it....

How do you know? Do you know this landlord? Do you know if this landlord has a practice of pursuing everything because he doesn't want to get a reputation for rolling over? Do you know whether he may be relying on an "attorney's fees" clause in the lease to get a judgment against you for his attorney fees and costs and whether he would then plan to garnish your wages or have the sheriff seize other property you may own to satisfy that judgment? Do you know if he's been successful in the past collecting in that way? At this point, you're only guessing.

The landlord isn't stupid,...

How do you know? Do you know this landlord?

The point is that if you are personally dealing with a particular landlord (or anyone else in connection with a business transaction) you may be able to assess how that particular landlord (person) will be likely to handle things under various circumstances. But you can't assume in a vacuum that your generic landlord will think the way you do (or the way you think he ought to think).

It's useful to know what he could do under the lease and applicable law. It's also useful to know what your exposure could be. Then, as you deal with someone, it's a good idea to be aware of clues regarding his character and ways of doing business to assess whether or under what circumstances he is likely to deal or might lower the boom. You can form judgments about such things when you are dealing with someone, but you can't make useful judgments about such things without knowing the person you're doing business with.

 

[Bubbles]

Speaking as a landlady (for economic reasons, not by choice), I don't care a whit that my tenant has guns. I also told him if he wants to buy more to let me know and we'd work out a deal.

As for the OP's situation, legal or not, why would you want to give your hard-earned money to a business with anti-gun policies? Rent elsewhere.

 

[Ianp240]

Because they're not denying your inalienable right to self-defense. You can defend yourself with a candlestick, a knife, a heavy book, a baseball bat, fists & feet, etc, etc. Not having access to a gun =/= defenseless.

Wasn't that the same arguement used by DC in the Heller case.

As a Landlord have you asked your lawyer about your liability if you restrict the use of a handgun for self defence on your property, Heller case made it clear that a handgun is accepted as the most used weapon for self defence and as such I think that your position in denying the use of such a tool could be used against you in court to great effect and it may cost you big time.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Wasn't that the same arguement used by DC in the Heller case....

Not Heller, the right of self defense nor the Second Amendment has anything to do with this. The Heller decision was based on the limitations the Second Amendment places on government. The Constitution does not regulate the conduct of private parties.

See posts 78, 80, 86 and 87 in this thread.

 

[kingpin008]

Thank you, Fiddletown. Well said.

 

[Art Eatman]

This is geting into the usual 5-Page circularity, and I note that the original thread-starter has apparently lost interest...