Non-Compliant Intruder

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Sorry, Jeff.

I strongly disagree. A person has gained illegal access to my home, has what may be a weapon and is being non-compliant. Even if he-she is a deaf mute, everyone understands a firearm ponted at them and a finger pointing to the floor. No compliance and a possible threat equals a ventilated perp. I've got a wife and kid, too. Or does that defense only work for cops?
 
Three Huge Factors Here:

1. DISTANCE

How close is the intruder to you? Remember the court-tested (at least for LEOs) "Tueller Drill" where a knife-wielding/threatening BG closer than 21 ft. is automatically deemed a lethal threat -- and basically fair game to be shot.

2. DISPARITIES -- OF SIZE, AGE, ETC.

If the intruder is an 18 yr. old 250 lb. linebacker and you're a 50 yr. old 175 pounder with arthritic knees, HE is assumed to have a significant physical advantage -- and thus constitutes a superior threat -- even if he appears to be unarmed. Multiple intruders? Automatic big disparity, even if they're midgets.

3. METHOD OF ILLEGAL ENTRY

If it is obvious that he entered via an open door, then that may mitigate against your decision to use immediate lethal force.

HOWEVER -- assuming you have demonstrably strong locks on all doors/windows, etc. -- then, any reasonable homeowner (with 2 oz. of Street Sense) may assume that said intruder gained FORCEABLE ENTRY via some type of TOOL (prybar, screwdriver, axe, brick, etc.) which...

(a) May be nearby and "grab-able" if he makes a move, or
(b) Still concealed on the intruder, and is therefor...
(c) A potentially lethal weapon -- at close range (see "Tueller Drill" above)

Note: one of your kitchen knives (left visibly accessible) IS a weapon.

Bottom Line: Any miscreant who I find in MY house at close range at 3 A.M. (a) did not just get there by accident, (b) who confronts me in any furtive or non-compliant fashion, (c) is an immediate lethal threat, and thus (d) dead meat.

YMMV.
 
hm

the mod's point is not that one should always give the intruder the benefit of doubt, but rather to use a bit of judgement when pulling the trigger. whether there are family members in the house, whether you are alone, whether you are in a defensible position, whether the guy looks like he's lost.. all these play into the situation.

an attitude of "i see a guy in my house i don't like and he doesn't obey right away, i'm going to kill him" doesn't quite work. what if he's your cousin's boyfriend that she snuck into the house at night for a vis-a-vis? or some guy drunk off his rocker that went into the wrong home because you left the front door to your apartment unlocked? and the relative whom you can't recognize right away because it's dark and you havne't got your glasses on? all three have happened to me, and while i had a gun leveled (rifle) only in the second & third (to a lesser degree) situation, i did have some sort of weapon in all three.

boy am i glad i did not drop hammers just because i the guy didn't immediately drop and give love to momma dirt.

of course, there are mitigating factors in my judgement of all three. in the first, (sneaky boyfriend) I noticed that the guy didn't look like he was there to rob the place. looked like a kid, weaker than me, and he was getting juice out of the fridge. it also mattered that i knew i could kick the crap out of him without much trouble. if he'd been 6'2 and built like a linebacker, i probably would've hightailed as quickly as possible to the nearst phone.

in the second, my mother had called me over scared by some guy who kept banging on her door. i went over to her house and in the middle of calming her down this guy walks right in. i had my rifle with me (i was 20 at the time, coudlnt' own handguns) and brought it up right quick. he started blubberring pretty soon and alhtough he sure as heck wasn't following my directions he wasn't going after me, either. there was only one way in, i could see right down the hall that there was no one hiding behind him, and unless he was an exceptionally devious and nimble fellow he wasn't about to get the drop on ME. so i told him to get the f** out, told him he was in my mother's private house (probably should have said residence). the manager had already been called and in a few minutes he and i both went over to the (as it turns out) repeat drunk's apartment where the sot pretended to have been watching tv and his daughter made up some story about how he had been there all along.

in the third, my friend from high school walked in on my STUDIO APARTMENT one night. he had happened to be in town from berkeley and he had decided to surprise me by using a key that i'd given him in the past. bear in midn that studios have only one room, so imagine waking up to see a guy in your single room, silhouetted by the dark and the hallway light outside your apartment. i have pretty lousy vision, and i yelled "whoa! stop right there!" while fumbling for the ar under the bed (a placement that i would regret years later, btw). he saw me pulling out the gun and stupidly, he figured that he would just stand there and let me realize who he was. i suppose he wanted the dramatic moment. i had the bejeesuz scared out of me by this guy who was just standing in my doorway silent and unmoving, but since wasn't doing anything i pulled back the charing handle and got out of bed. that was when i recognized the funky hair my buddy had and boy did i get mad....

the point is, don't talk about how you are going to shoot intruders in the back, guys who don't respond right away, etc.

it's bad for your tactics and very bad for everybody's public reputation. ultimately, if you feel you need to shoot first and ask questions later, keep it to yourself. but if you want to be a prudent man, may your brain be a split second faster than your finger.
 
I was once told by someone I highly respect, that some people shouldn't be allowed to have children or pets, some people shouldn't be allowed to drive and some people shouldn't be allowed to own firearms or other implements that they could use to harm others or themselves. Unfortunately, as time passes I'm agreeing with the last part more and more.

If you can't look at the totality of the circumstances of a situation before you resort to deadly force, then I don't think you should be allowed to own the means of inflicting deadly force.

There is no standard home intruder situation. Every one is different. Someone who doesn't belong in your home could be there for any number of reasons. Not all of those reasons are sufficient grounds to take their life for.

There was an interesting home intruder call in a neighboring town a couple hours ago. A woman called in from a house to report that there was a man she didn't know sleeping on her couch. Dispatch got the address off the 911 system. The call was dispatched with the additional information that the caller sounded very intoxicated. Upon arrival the officers found the woman standing in the living room of the house that was occupied by the heavy sleeper on the couch. After sorting things out, the woman was given a ride thhe four blocks to her own residence. Sounds pretty comical. But think how comical it might have been had the woman been armed and shot the man sleeping on his own couch, or if the man had awakened before the police arrived and shot the woman.

Few of us, especially those of us with kids can honestly say that our doors are always locked. People forget. Kids hate the inconvenience of getting their keys out or even carrying their keys. Maybe you were in a hurry or preoccupied with something else and neglected to lock the door? Maybe the phone rang as you walked through the door, you answered it, and at the end of the conversation you went about your business because you knew the door was locked, you always lock it after yourself.....

You have to judge each and every situation on it's own merits. In the first post in this thread we were asked how we would respond to a specific situation. We weren't told if the man broke in or if he was just discovered there. The situation as described was not a shoot situation. Add in more information and it might have been or then again more info might definately place it in the no shoot category.

You can't default to Kill em All, Let God Sort em Out! You have to take in all the information you can and then make your decision. And you may have a second or two to do that. If you aren't willing to learn the most important part of the combat triad; Mindset, then I think you need to rethink your defensive plans.

It'd be pretty hard to live with the fact you blew away one of you teenager's friends because they moved their party into your garage at 1 am and at 2:30 your teenager let his friend in to use the bathroom.

I'm going to stand by rules of engagement that require you to make certain the target is really a bad guy before you destroy it.....

Jeff
 
I certainly hope that some of you folks never are presented with this problem. I expect your bloody enthusiasm for killing someone is more bravado or ignorance than real, but if it isn't let me suggest that you reexamine this thinking. There is nothing you will do that will change your life for the negative quicker than killing someone. Regardless of your visualization of the movie carnography that you've indulged in the reality is that something human inside you will be wounded when you pull that trigger and see that dead man on your floor.

If you are not in fear for your life or that of your loved ones when you kill that man you are either deeply disturbingly broken in your soul or you risk being afterwards.

This isn't an adolescent game. What you actually do will change the rest of your life. What you say here influences the thinking of others, both pro and anti.
 
The reasons I didn't include the method of entry in the situation topic are the following (This list is not exhaustive.):

1. Sometimes you cannot hear them breaking in.

2. Maybe they got in through an unlocked door/window.

3. Maybe they lock-picked a locked door.

4. Maybe they have already broken in and the homeowner arrives after.

5. They obtained keys somehow.

The method of entry is not always known at the moment of discovering an intruder.
 
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You direct him to move/step onto an area that's not carpeted, such as the Kitchen, Foyer or Bathroom (preferably the guest bathroom). Aftermath clean-up will be much easier.
 
Two Things -

1.

The wife of a friend of mine has been dealing with Breast Cancer for ~ 3yrs. This is not only been difficult for her - also her husband, major medical situations take their toll on all the family - not just the one having the medical problem.

They live in a rural area. She went in for a treatment, another "new regimen" and as happens, just had to come home and go to bed. Husband needs some time for himself to 'de-stress' it was a long day for him too, still too tired to sleep. He goes out to his shop to piddle, with a yard tractor, therapy you might say.

1 am he gets a call from his neighbor down the way, something in the barn is causing a rukus with the horses. Husband and neighbor call the Sheriff's Dept.

His wife had a 106* F fever sitting in a corner of the horse barn, babbling and rocking herself and "freezing to death" with a horse blanket over herself and had no idea how she got there, where she was.

4 armed folks and I assure you shooting "the intruder" was NOT the first thing on their minds. The guns were NOT the only tools in the toolbox.

2.

THR Staff, Mods & Admins - Please delete this thread.

This thread is nothing more than fuel for Tyranny AEB some replies.

Even when Common Sense is suggested, examples cited, and Professionals have shared, folks have gone totally against Rules of Conduct and Misson Statement of THR.


THR sprung forth from TFL closing, Oleg gave us a new home. Before Rich closed TFL for a bit, he challenged US all to not just meet the raised bar TFL established, instead he challenged US, to raise the bar higher for ourselves in personal lives, and other pursuits.

Now many have started Blogs, Websites and Forums, and have indeed raised the bar, many have raised the bar in their personal lives, as instructors and trainers.

This thread is disgusting , has tainted all we were challenged to do, not only as a Forum, also tainted those of us personally.

You folks wonder why some known trainers, instructors, and manufacturers that are members here - do not post here anymore?

YOU ran them off! They have integrity , ethics, principals, common sense, and do not want to be associated with folks that taint the raised bar they continued to raise higher for themselves.

Disgusted!!

Steve
 
The worst that could happen..!

^^ See answer # 32 ^^ !! (los) - I'm in w/ that..! Of coarse an even worse for the intruder scenario would be; let loose my......... "Carribean/ West Indian Wife on his Ass;" they'd never even find all the parts..! (LOL!)

Eric :)
 
atlctyslkr said:
If this happens to me after July 1 the intruder wouldn't get that far. We have a stand your ground law that goes into affect. An intruder that fails to follow orders will be shot.

Let me take this opportunity to point out a popular misconception about these laws. These laws create a presumption that you were reasonably justified in fearing death or serious bodily injury if someone breaks into your home. From a practical standpoint, it means if someone forcibly enters your home, you get the benefit of the doubt as to whether you were in fear for your life.

However, if police discover evidence that shows you were not in fear of death or seriously bodily injury; but simply shot someone under the mistaken belief that you could legally do so, then you have a big problem because a presumption is rebuttable. That means they can still bring you to court and introduce evidence to argue you were not in fear of your life (i.e. a post under your Internet nom de plume saying "If anyone is ever in my house, I will shoot them to the ground no questions asked.")

Please understand that being able to accurately identify your target and articulate a reasonable belief of why you were in fear of death or serious bodily injury will still be very important in any home self-defense shooting. It will also be very important in protecting all of our Second Amendent rights by demonstrating that the antis are wrong when they make the wild and dubious claims that they do regarding these laws.
 
Some things just make me sit back and shake my head in wonder.

Among them is posting a statement on a public, accessible-by-anybody bulletin board to the effect of: "If anybody whom I deem a threat (for whatever reason) is in my house, they're dead meat, room temperature, etc, etc."

Any time you feel the urge to say such a thing here, consider just how you're going to feel in the terrible event that you have to take a life - even if you are entirely justified - when the prosecutor turns to the jury of your peers (who will likely not be your peers, or of like mind regarding firearms) and says:

"Ladies and gentlemen, what I am about to read to you is a statement (or statements) made by the defendant that will shock and horrify you....."

Think about it, folks. Think about it very carefully.
 
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Ahhh, it don't matter anyhow ... my dog's gonna find that intruder before I wake up and get to him anyway.
(said in a drawl like the fleet admiral in Hunt for Red October)

The only question is whether he will tear his throat out or just knock him down and lick him to death. ;)
 
I am a single Parent raising 4 precious children.

LET ME BE VERY CLEAR ON THIS:

If the Perp is non-compliant and my life, and the lives of my children are compromised by his/her actions,..it's a no-brainer.
 
I'm not stating what I might do but...

Even in the Peoples Republik of Massachusetts there is no such thing as a "duty to retreat". If you believe your life in is danger the use of deadly force is approved. No climbing out windows, no asking "pretty please go away".
 
All or Nothing?

There seem to be some who view this as an all or nothing proposition; either run and hide or shoot everyone in your house. Neither is the case, neither is responsible.

That said, we all have differing opinions on what is important to us and what we're willing to do to protect those things and people. Personally, I'm not willing to take someone's life over stuff, but my wife and son are in my house. I cannot and will not abide a threat to them.

Getting back to the original post, it assumes a few conditions some of you are ignoring. So much for your powers of observation. I hope they improve, you'll need them in real life. The bulge on the intruder is visible. You can see. You'll recognize Grandma or Uncle Fred. Secondly, you have them at gunpoint in your home. How big is your house? Get a plastic gun and a stick. Find out just how easy it is to get whacked in any room in your own home if you're not on the ball. Thirdly, if you've got time to notice a bulge in clothing, you've got time to verbally challenge. Suzy's boyfriend will likely wet himself explaining what he's doing there at three a.m. I'm not advocating "shoot first, ask questions later". What I am advocating is quickly determining if there is a threat and IF so, deal with it just as quickly.

Yes, there are a multitude of circumstances to be put in play, but you've got to get through the background info quickly. Putting the shoe on the other foot, I highly doubt that if I were to be suddenly standing over your bed at O'dark thirty, you'd be very forgiving. Telling others to be so is both hypocritical and dangerous. Tell someone to exhaust alternatives before making the decision to shoot? Yes. Get yourself killed over someone else's wrondoing? Not hardly.
 
I actually go into this in the classesI teach.
There is no single answer to any situation. You always have to look at the totality of the circumstances.
 
yes i know killing someone will change your life forever, but him killing you and your family would too! i didnt break in his house, he broke in mine and if he dosent comply with my orders hes a dead man! end of story*csa*
 
Hello, This is my first post.
I've been reading this thread and I can tell definetely say from expierience to be very certain about what your dealing with as far as home invaders.
A couple months ago, I was house sitting my grandmas place. There had been some vandalism and burglary around their place. My uncle's car even got broken into. Just to be safe, I brought my springfield G.I. with me.

At about mignight one night, I woke up to a scratching sound at the front door. I grabbed my handgun and my first thought was to just wait for the intruder to come in. Then i figured myabe turning on some lights would scare him away. So I flipped on both the living room light and the front porch light.
I looked out the window, and saw my sister's car parked in the driveway!!
She has a menagerie of keys and couldn't find the one for my grandma's house.
Be careful!!
 
depends.

if he has his hands raised where I can see them and simply isn't responding to my orders he can stand there with a stupid look on his face all he wants. However, if he wont at least move his hands away from his waist and where I can see them and they can't get at anything he goes down. If he not only disobeys the order but goes agianst it such as moving hands closer to it or makes a sudden movment to it he goes down. I'd feel bad for shooting someone mentaly challenged or something so caution is in order and it isn't black and white you follow my orders to the letter or die, but I'm sure my family would feel a lot worse if they had to put me in the ground.
 
Nomoney, welcome to THR!

Let me relate something that happened to me many years ago, when my oldest daughter was newly married and working a night job:

We live in a very rural area, home intruders are usually not a concern.
BUT, one night, I hear someone enter the living room downstairs, some commotion, and then quiet.

I picked up my loaded SBH, and as quietly as I could, snuck downstairs to see who was in the living room. I know, not very tactical, but that's what I did.

When I looked into the living room, with my weapon at ready, MY OLDEST DAUGHTER was sleeping on the couch. She was tired from working, and decided it was SAFER to crash at mom and dad's place then to try and drive home that night.

Think about that before you decide you will KILL any intruder in your home.

If I had fired that shot that night, as several on here are advocating, there would have been a second shot heard right behind it.
 
re:

Now, to play Devil's Advocate for a moment...

A mentally challenged/deficient, drunk, stoned, confused 13 year-old is every bit as capable of killing you as was Alvin Carpis or Clyde Barrow. Every situation is different and requires a cool head to properly evaluate and decide the course of action...often measured in split seconds.

Real life is asuredly NOT Hollywood.
 
Owning a gun and having the ability to use it properly are two different things.

If a direct deadly threat presented itself I would act in the manner I, a reasonable man, would believe prudent to assure the safety of myself and my family. This would require a reason to shoot. If he got the hell out of my house that's good enough & the Sheriff can deal with him.

From the OP, there would seem to be three possible ways this could go.
One, the perp does nothing and the situation does not change. In which case 911 response will deal with this.
Two, the perp either complies with my desire to leave or some other way become less threatening. In which case, see answer to #1 above.
Three, the perp tries something aggressive, like attempts to engage me in hand to hand fighting, or moves towards deeper into my house, or produces a weapon, or a 2nd BG appears. At that time I would have to say things could get a little dramatic. Depending on where the BG appeared first odds are I might have a 12-ga shotgun with tacitcal buckshot, or a .45 Glock 21. Depending on how safe I felt... things would have to be decided second-by-second at that point, it is impossible to predtermine a reaction to a situation I am not in.

And that is why training, training, training is the difference between a normal private citizen and a trained LEO or soldier. How many of us do drills in their house, checking sight lines, areas of retreat, exposure to windows & BG's outside, etc. in their own house? Do you know where the best hiding places are from certain entry points in your house?
I do.

I have personal experience with a trespasser that English was not his native tongue and he didn't understand that in my country, the gun in my hand meant get the hell out. Fortunately his brother appeared to drag him out of my house, apologizing as he went, that they were going to the new Church group that just started meeting at the neighbor's house & they thought my driveway was theirs.
 
Unauthorized entry...

It's just like the police...if you feel the threat of danger, respond in a manner in which you feel the situation requires. It only takes a split second to determine the gravity of a situation. NEVER second guess your instincts go with it. The guy that had his family killed should have been able to read the signs from the intruder that he was not alone (he would have showed signs of cockyness or disconcern of being confronted at gun point and the most notable...body language). I too keep my doors locked thus...intruders are subject to MY JUDGEMENT. There's nothing in my house worth dying for. I'm not afraid to make the call...laws or no laws. The only real decisions I have to make is AR15 or 1911A1 when I head out to confront, cover for myself, and shooting angle to prevent innocent people from getting hit. Yes, I did some time as a Military Police Officer/Watch Commander. In other words, just shooting blindly is not an option, it requires TRAINING and decision making abilities. Training is as simple as reading a book and practice of situations at the range with arranged targets.
 
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