Noob questions about automatic rifles

[Facepuncher]

Please forgive me as I am sure this has been covered, but my search efforts here and on google have been fruitless.

I am itching to assemble an AR-15 clone, and I would like to know how I can go about legally assembling one capable of three round bursts or automatic fire.

It has always been my understanding that civilians cannot own an automatic weapon that was made after 1986. However, while reading another forum I was made aware of people that participate in "subgun" competitions where burst or auto fire is required.

I think these competitions look like a lot of fun and I would love to participate in them, but I don't have the many thousands of dollars required to purchase a legal pre-86 gun. Surely the people that compete don't all have uber-expensive guns, or do they?

I really like the idea of owning a short AR converted to 9mm with full auto capability.

I'm not really concerned about the mechanics of the whole thing, I work in a very well-equipped machine shop and have access to almost any tool I'd need to finish an incomplete lower receiver, if that is what it takes. This is assuming that the required internal parts are even available of course.

Basically what I need to know is how do I legally build an automatic rifle? Or where can I look to research this issue further?

Thanks in advance, I have been lurking here for a while and I have learned a lot. Even if I can't build a automatic AR I'm definitely still going to put together a bitchin' semi-auto one.

 

[2RCO]

Face puncher-- You don't assemble automatic weapons. Unless you wan't to make new friends at Club Fed.

You buy them with proper paperwork and a Tax Stamp if it is legal where you live. Firs I suggest saving because for an M16 type gizmo you need 10k or so.

And yes, those guys that compete do have uber expensive guns! Some are Dealers and that makes it a bit cheaper.

 

[Facepuncher]

Thats what I thought, but I've read about people that compete with full-auto guns that definitely look like the were made after 1986. Are these based off a pre-86 receiver or something?

 

[Prince Yamato]

Thats what I thought, but I've read about people that compete with full-auto guns that definitely look like the were made after 1986. Are these based off a pre-86 receiver or something?

Yes and no. Mostly, it's an old M-16 lower plus a new upper. The competitors could also be class 3 manufacturers who are using new guns, as they (but not you) are legally allowed to posses new full-auto weapons.

 

[2RCO]

I'm sure many of those guys are at least somehow sponsored by Class 3 folks and may be "loaned" the guns. There is probably a company guy somewhere in the background at every competition that is in charge of the weapon.

 

[jlbraun]

Thats what I thought, but I've read about people that compete with full-auto guns that definitely look like the were made after 1986. Are these based off a pre-86 receiver or something?

The guns could be new semi-automatic weapons with an auto sear installed (and some other parts, but the sear is the restricted part).

This is an auto sear for an FN FNC. This $1 piece of steel costs $4000 (a government-induced increase of 400,000%) because no new ones can be made, ever. If you possess it without a tax stamp, you go to jail. If you make a new one, you go to jail - that is if you don't get shot in the course of the BATFE burning your house down.

ETA: If you are interested, follow what happens in the Heller vs. DC decision. If it is upheld by the Supreme Court, expect to see multiple people filing to buy NIB M16s, getting denied, and filing to overturn 922(o), the prohibition on new machineguns. Then you will be able to buy machineguns for a reasonable price.

 

[strat81]

Surely the people that compete don't all have uber-expensive guns, or do they?

People with big $$$ have all kinds of hobbies. Some like sports cars, others like boats, and some even like full-auto bang bang fun.

And no, you do NOT want to attempt making your own machine gun.

 

[Facepuncher]

Damn, if I paid $4000 for that I'd at least expect them to put a nice finish on it. Is it $4k because that part is pre-86 and super rare, or is the $4k just for the tax stamp?

So I guess no competition for me unless I become a legal automatic weapon manufacturing company. I'd imagine that is pretty hard to do, or everyone would be doing it. Bummer, but whatever.

Thanks, you people have been very helpful and I appreciate it. As soon as I become a gun owner I plan on chatting with you all a whole lot more often.

 

[Crunker1337]

Can't be done. Learn to bump fire.

 

[jlbraun]

Is it $4k because that part is pre-86 and super rare, or is the $4k just for the tax stamp?

$4000 for just the part, and $200 for the tax stamp. The $4000 is because of government regulation restricting the supply.

 

[Facepuncher]

People with big $$$ have all kinds of hobbies. Some like sports cars, others like boats, and some even like full-auto bang bang fun.

And no, you do NOT want to attempt making your own machine gun.

Good point, 10-15k is still cheaper than pretty much any type of racing beyond go-karts, and you can still sell the gun for what you paid when you get sick of it. So it's not too bad I guess.

Of course I would never attempt to do anything illegal involving guns, that would be stupid. I would only want to build one if I was 100% sure it was all legit.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

You could probably find a MAC 10 for around 3k. With transfer that would be 3200. Now figure in the cost of bullets by the case.

 

[Facepuncher]

$4000 for just the part, and $200 for the tax stamp. The $4000 is because of government regulation restricting the supply.

Sorry if I'm dense, but is it still a pre-86 manufactured part?

 

[MisterPX]

Yes, that part is more than 20 years old.

Basic story, you're not getting into MG's for less than $3000.

 

[Facepuncher]

Yes, that part is more than 20 years old.

Basic story, you're not getting into MG's for less than $3000.

I would totally do it for $3000, that's not too bad. But I don't really like MAC-10s, it would have to be something much cooler.

Just out of curiosity, what is the nicest legal subgun you could get for around $5k or so?

 

[MudPuppy]

A mac-10.

UZIs are about 6k, but you might get a deal. A stemple is about that too. M2 carbine is about in that range.

I'm waiting for the illegal MG ban to get reversed.

 

[Prince Yamato]

Just out of curiosity, what is the nicest legal subgun you could get for around $5k or so?

Mac-10, Ruger ACG, SW 76. Other than that, nothing. Even the Macs have climbed into the $4000 range over the past couple years.

Essentially those guns listed will always be the cheapest because they are available in the largest numbers. Go to www.autoweapons.com to browse.

 

[Blackfork]

Government

The Government, local, state, and federal have totally fubared gun laws. This is a prime example.

 

[SG Merc]

Sorry but there's no way to legally own a select fire AR without spending around $10,000.

As others have said, even if you did the work yourself with a registered auto sear you'd still be paying around $8,000 for that one part.

 

[I LIKE IT!]

Sad state of affairs facepuncher, I'm paying over 20K for my MG.

Don't ever see that going away, so yeah they have banned em.

Ignorance and Fear are thier tools, be mindful of traitors.

Good luck, get em while there still in the five digits range.

 

[makarova]

I disagree

If I remember correctly(an iffy assumption!),There was a federal court case where a man did precisely what facepuncher proposed. He built a machine gun from scratch at a machine shop. He was arrested and convicted then appealed. The federal court threw out the conviction by concluding(dont forget iffy momories)the gun couldn't be shown to have any relationship to Interstate Commerce. Didn't do him any good, by that time he had also been convicted of plotting to kill the judge on the testimony of a jail house snitch. So my point is that it really is as expensive or a lot more as others have mentioned. Its just the expenses are for the legal representation, not the gummint forms And of course dont forget the costs of losing your case. As most people have advised, lets wait for that Supreme Court Case.

 

[Mojo-jo-jo]

To possess a machine gun it is required that (a) it is registered with the Department of the Treasury and (b) the payment of $200 tax for this registration "service." You get a "stamp" and paperwork showing that the tax has been paid. No stamp, you go to jail for possessing an unregistered MG.

HOWEVER, a law passed in 1986 prohibits the NEW registration of any MG after the effective date of the law. This de-facto prohibits the possession or transfer of any machine gun that was not already "on the books" in 1986. If it is already in the registry, it can be transferred to somebody else, by payment of $200 tax for the ATF to update the registry, but no new ones can be added, so no new manufacture.

It has nothing to do with manufacture date, other than that a MG made in 2007 could not have been registered prior to '86. The key is that the MG must have in the registry before 1986 in order to be legal. For example, if you found a cherry commercial Thompson in the attic that your great-grandfather legally purchased from the Sears catalog in 1922 (this is before the National Firearms Act of 1934--which started the MG registry) and had been forgotten since, therefore not been registered prior to 1986, you may not legally possess it and it could not be registered now. Your best bet would be to get out the slegehammer, make sure nothing left is identifiable, and don't tell anybody (BTW, this is NOT legal advice...)

subgun you could get for around $5k or so?

I saw a transferable, but rather beat up M2 carbine for $5000 at a gun show a few weeks ago. By the looks of the thing, it would probably be a fixer-upper. That's the cheapest MG I've seen.

On the other end, about 2 years ago some dealer at a show had a transferable M60 for $42,000.

The only way you can legally manufacture a MG is by getting approved for a manufacturer's license from the ATF and begin filling military and police orders. It ain't gonna happen...

 

[makarova]

Not so fast

I believe you can make, rather than commercially manufacture any firearm including full auto as long as you make it for yourself. You cannot subsequently sell, trade, or giveaway the firearm for any reason. I don't believe you have to put serial number on it, but don't hold me to that. In fact there are manufacturers who are known as 80 percenters because they machine an ar15 to about 80% and then allow their customers to complete the process. As you can imagine, that drives the gumming bananas and causes them to conduct illegal raids that facilitate snatching their customers lists even though they have no legal authority to do so. No surprise there.

 

[Facepuncher]

I believe you can make, rather than commercially manufacture any firearm including full auto as long as you make it for yourself. You cannot subsequently sell, trade, or giveaway the firearm for any reason. I don't believe you have to put serial number on it, but don't hold me to that. In fact there are manufacturers who are known as 80 percenters because they machine an ar15 to about 80% and then allow their customers to complete the process. As you can imagine, that drives the gumming bananas and causes them to conduct illegal raids that facilitate snatching their customers lists even though they have no legal authority to do so. No surprise there.

Hmmm... very intriguing. I have seen plenty of 80% receivers for sale, at not much savings over finished ones. Maybe this is why they exist?

I wouldn't really mind not being able to sell it as long as I can prove it's legal without too much hassle. I think I'll email the batf and see what they say.

 

[wdlsguy]

I believe you can make, rather than commercially manufacture any firearm including full auto as long as you make it for yourself.

I am not familiar with the rules on making Title I firearms (handguns, rifles, shotguns), but you can make any Title II firearm (AOW, destructive device, machinegun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, silencer) you want except for a machinegun on a Form 1.