North Korea Declaring War against USA
- Thread starter Lonestar
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MS .45
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While North Korea would have a hard time hurting the U.S. directly, they could draw us into conflict by attacking our allies in the region(Japan, South Korea). Scary scenario with so many of our forces deployed in the Middle East.
ETXhiker
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They have an army of a million men. We have 20,000+ troops in South Korea, mostly at the DMZ acting as a "trip wire". I think you have to take their threats seriously.
The scenario I fear most is NK attacking South Korea and China moving simultaneously on Taiwan while we have our hands full. I find it hard to believe NK is doing all of this sabre rattling without China's tacit approval.
The scenario I fear most is NK attacking South Korea and China moving simultaneously on Taiwan while we have our hands full. I find it hard to believe NK is doing all of this sabre rattling without China's tacit approval.
Third_Rail
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Oh joy.
Bartholomew Roberts
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Well, this is not that scenario. China doesn't have the power projection capability necessary to invade Taiwan at this moment. Not to mention that a "hostile" takeover of the island would put a tremendous dent in their own economy.
North Korea threatens war, plague, famine and death on a pretty regular basis so it is always hard to tell just how serious they are about it. We'll see what China does in the Security Council. That will be a good indicator of where all of this is heading.
As I recall, we have about 37,000 troops in SK who are essentially either hostages held by NK or potential sacrifices made by us. NK doesn't even need WMD to roll over our guys in a matter of hours.
There are 8,000 NK arty pieces trained on them this second. It would be ugly.
Our only response would be a nuke response. Then the fun would start.
I'm glad I live in Idaho.
Biker
There are 8,000 NK arty pieces trained on them this second. It would be ugly.
Our only response would be a nuke response. Then the fun would start.
I'm glad I live in Idaho.
Biker
Deanimator
Member
If North Korea attacks the United States, they're going to have a food SURPLUS without increasing supply. There won't be anyone left to eat what's there.
This isn't 1950. They're safe only so long as they stay in their tunnels under the DMZ. The second they set one foot in fresh air, they're toast. They can't move and hide in the dark the way they could during the Korean War.
At MOST they can kill a lot of people between the DMZ and Seoul.
The best thing for all concerned would be for the Chinese to say to some North Korean general, "Want to be President of North Korea? Act now on this limited time offer!" The second best thing would be a Chinese invasion, which would provoke a collective shrug from the world at large... except maybe Ramsey Clark and Noam Chomsky who would hysterically protest the violation of the North Korean peoples' right to mass starvation...
This isn't 1950. They're safe only so long as they stay in their tunnels under the DMZ. The second they set one foot in fresh air, they're toast. They can't move and hide in the dark the way they could during the Korean War.
At MOST they can kill a lot of people between the DMZ and Seoul.
The best thing for all concerned would be for the Chinese to say to some North Korean general, "Want to be President of North Korea? Act now on this limited time offer!" The second best thing would be a Chinese invasion, which would provoke a collective shrug from the world at large... except maybe Ramsey Clark and Noam Chomsky who would hysterically protest the violation of the North Korean peoples' right to mass starvation...
Manedwolf
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I suspect that if this keeps up, Crazy Kim is going to have a most unfortunate accident.
Helmetcase
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If you're really worried about this, here's a good article on it: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200610/kaplan-korea
In short, it would be an ugly war for the SK's and lots of civilians would die, but man it'd be even uglier for them. Our airpower would decimate them.
In short, it would be an ugly war for the SK's and lots of civilians would die, but man it'd be even uglier for them. Our airpower would decimate them.
Sistema1927
Member
We have been at war with North Korea since 1950. The Armistice did not end the war, it only cooled down hostilities.
Brilliant. The Norks shouldn't really be worried about the US. They've got the Asian Michael Jordan of whoopa-- right in their backyard. Japan really won't have a choice soon except to remilitarize; and I kinda think that's like poking your neighbors friendly rottweiller/pit bull mix with a stick; it's all fun and games until the instincts kick in and he remembers what he's capable of. Even accepting the fact that Japan and S. Korea can't defeat NK, they'd certainly take the edge off, especially of a conscript army. The real question is, is whoever's driving the car in NK non-delusional enough to see the situation for what it is?
Manedwolf
member
I also think as a matter of necessity, we'll soon see the Rising Sun again on fully armed attack aircraft for the first time in over 60+ years.
Might actually help our military in the long run. The Japanese have done some significant technology improvements to the F-16's we've sold them. Imagine what sort of things the big Japan-based semiconductor corporations could come up with if they went full-out to development.
"Ghost in the Shell" weapons for real?
I think we'd at least see complete optical camouflage for aircraft within a couple years, being that several Tokyo R&D places and universities are already working with it, (metamaterials that conduct light around an object, rather than reflecting) and a military-industrial complex would likely pour money at that.
Also picturing caseless-ammo bullpup rifles and other extreme tech goodies. Or a Honda light armored vehicle based on the Ridgeline chassis. It'd never quit!
Might actually help our military in the long run. The Japanese have done some significant technology improvements to the F-16's we've sold them. Imagine what sort of things the big Japan-based semiconductor corporations could come up with if they went full-out to development.
"Ghost in the Shell" weapons for real?
I think we'd at least see complete optical camouflage for aircraft within a couple years, being that several Tokyo R&D places and universities are already working with it, (metamaterials that conduct light around an object, rather than reflecting) and a military-industrial complex would likely pour money at that.Also picturing caseless-ammo bullpup rifles and other extreme tech goodies. Or a Honda light armored vehicle based on the Ridgeline chassis. It'd never quit!
Keith Wheeler
Member
I have to admit, when I first read reports of Japan heading towards the "not just for self defense anymore" path, the first thing that came to mind was Tachikomas asking if they could shoot down the helicopters, because "they're our natural enemies".
They sure have some creative minds and talented engineers.
ID_shooting
Member
Having been stationed in the ROK and accepting the fact thet we were a "speed bump" of sorts, this could get ugly fast.
2ID has two major combat brigades. I was part of first brigade, 1/72 Armor to be exact. Our practice in the monthly drills were to move out of Camp Casey and roll north while second brigade rolled south and took up defensive positions in Seoul. We were told to expect light Marines to arrive in 12 hours and light Army units from the US in 48. The first mech units would arrive in 1 week. The AF would launch thier fighters and then evac to Japan. We would esentially be alone for quite a while to hold them off.
The challenge was for those of us on Casey, we had a huge mountian to our north. In the case of a massive arty attack, our barracks were protected by this mountian yes our motor pool was sitting out in the open. On the flip side, 2/72 Armor was just the opposite, the barracks were in the open and thier motor pool was protected. Our unspoken plan, besides eliminating the KATUSAs was to head to 2/72 and steal thier tanks and head south as fast as we could and meet the Marines comming over from Japan.
2ID has two major combat brigades. I was part of first brigade, 1/72 Armor to be exact. Our practice in the monthly drills were to move out of Camp Casey and roll north while second brigade rolled south and took up defensive positions in Seoul. We were told to expect light Marines to arrive in 12 hours and light Army units from the US in 48. The first mech units would arrive in 1 week. The AF would launch thier fighters and then evac to Japan. We would esentially be alone for quite a while to hold them off.
The challenge was for those of us on Casey, we had a huge mountian to our north. In the case of a massive arty attack, our barracks were protected by this mountian yes our motor pool was sitting out in the open. On the flip side, 2/72 Armor was just the opposite, the barracks were in the open and thier motor pool was protected. Our unspoken plan, besides eliminating the KATUSAs was to head to 2/72 and steal thier tanks and head south as fast as we could and meet the Marines comming over from Japan.
High Planes Drifter
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As I understand it, China is for imposing sanctions against NK, but not severe.
They're stance is that harsh sanctions would crush NK's already crippled economy . They (China), along with Russia want to continue talks. The "China Factor" is a huge part of this whole situation.
They're stance is that harsh sanctions would crush NK's already crippled economy . They (China), along with Russia want to continue talks. The "China Factor" is a huge part of this whole situation.
Borachon
Member
I agree with the premise that China won't attack for economic reasons. I disagree with the idea that they COULDN'T project enough force to attack.
In fact, the information from this website http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/amphibious/default.asp
indicates to me that they are planning SOMETHING in the future, just based on the type of equipment they are building and buying.
I think right now it would be a close run war and a losing one for China...if the US is there to help Taiwan. If the US is occupied elsewhere and it was just Taiwan versus China....? Well....it would be tough for China and it would suffer a lot of losses, but if it maintains a good air cover and can get paratroop and sea borne forces to Taiwan in a timely fashion...who knows?
And of course if nukes were used on a couple of major airbases...or even used for their EMP pulse OVER Taiwan...then invasion would be a lot easier. EMP could fry all of the electronic components on jets, radar, tank targetting systems, maybe even the guidance systems on anti-ship and anti-aircraft missiles. Taiwan would then have to rely on line of sight shooting with artillery, and couldn't "pulse" the Chinese army in the same fashion.
And I know from studying some Chinese strategies that the use of EMP producing weapons (not necessarily nuclear) is a goal for Chinese forces. They want to knock the technological edge off of any opponent (i.e. The US military) and electro-magnetic pulse is a wonderful way to do that while still allowing China the use of its huge numerical advantage.
Borachon
Member
We should not forget this crisis is part of curse that keeps on giving. The Clinton Presidency. The arrangement made by Jimmy Carter and Madeline Albright to give the N.Koreans nuclear power plants has come back to bite us. Bill Clinton who won't trust you or me with a gun, gave that gargoyle the nuclear plants and material they now have...Keep that in mind as Hillary and the man who would be "First Lady" launch their campaign for another co presidency in '08. You can't trust gun banning liberals with our national security.
Manedwolf
member
I suspect that EMP is one of the things Japan is most afraid of. If an airburst EMP'ed Tokyo, they'd likely have to evacuate the city, millions of people as refugees or at least trying to get to relatives further out in the rural areas. It's far, far too congested and built-up in close quarters to survive without electrical power for long, and replacement of distribution transformers would literally take months.
fordfan485
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All im going to say is OPSEC, you know what to do.
ID_shooting
Member
Fordfan, really, pulease. Every platoon had no less than 5 KATUSAS. They even served in BN S2. That coupled with I was in the ROK over 10 years ago makes non of what I posted classified info.
Let them have at it..we don't need "on the ground" troups....If they "declared war" and attacked any USA interests, the cruise missiles, B-2s and F-117s start to fly. We sould pretty much disable their entire infrastucture, as well and any real military threats in about 48 hours.
The key would be China's reaction to this, and IMHO they want no part of a shooting war over an insignificant (relatively) peice of real estate. It's very much in their best interests to maintain good relations with the US, fo now.
justatexasboy
Member
The China factor is THE factor in this matter.
So long as they keep saying that major sanctions and military intervention is off the board NK will view that as a quiet nod of approval.
I really miss the days when our military was structured to operate in two theaters at once.
So long as they keep saying that major sanctions and military intervention is off the board NK will view that as a quiet nod of approval.
I really miss the days when our military was structured to operate in two theaters at once.
Borachon
Member
Exactly.
It's scary how dependent all aspects of an industrialized society are on electronics. Including my ability to send this message via computer.
I think the Chinese are on to a winning strategy actually. If your opponent is stronger than you and relies on technology, then cut the technological edge.
Then its back to high powered rifles and bombs.
Kim Jong Il is playing a dangerous game. I'm not entirely sure he plans on backing down, and when push comes to shove he has GOT to know that China will back him. China can't afford not to. Not backing him means that either 1) his country falls apart and millions of N. Koreans go to China as refugees or 2) the whole thing escalates into a major war and China has the possibility of large radioactive clouds that use to be Pyongyang drifting over its large population centers. China will be forced to support NK just to keep the US and South Korea from ending up with a base on the Yalu.
Also, it would be a testing ground for Chinese weapons and tactics against the US without the annoying necessity of having Chinese soldiers DIE to do so. If I was China, I'd be willing to fight to my last North Korean. And who knows....NK might win. There's a real chance of that.
I think there is a real possibility that if sanctions are imposed on North Korea that Kim is going to do something realllllly stupid.
Retro
Member
Someone needs to assassinate that crazy SOB-Kim and avert the re-armament of Japan... Everytime when the Japan re-arms, it will invade nearby countries... In 1450, Japan was unified under Hiroyushi, and Japan immediately invaded Korea (and then was defeated and repelled by the Chinese foreign expeditionary force in Korea at the time.) In 1860s, Japan underwent reform and militarization, it immediately invaded Siberia, and had a war with Russia, and then a war with China, defeating both, and annexing Korea. In 1938, Japan became militarized and governed by the military chief of staffs, and it invaded Northern China, and then, attacked US Pearl Harbor. Therefore, with history as a mirror, Japan is never to be trusted with a strong military force... the strong urge to leave their tiny island is inherent in their genes. If they re-arm, in a few decades, they may wanna "thank" us for the nukes that we have dealt them during WWII, that is, after they are done with China. North Korea is only a temporary problem, that crazy SOB-Kim has multiple types of sexually transmitted diseases, including HepB and HepC, and hence he may not be around for a long time, which made him very unstable and violatile, and hence an attempt to assassinate him without resorting to war is essential.
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