Not Dead Yet: M1 Carbine

[35 Whelen]

The M1 Carbine would be even "less dead" if they weren't so expensive!

35W

 

[Spug]

One of the coolest guns ever made. PPU (Prvi) also makes soft point ammo for it that is advertised at 2001 fps. I recently scored some bullets and a set of dies for it but haven't gotten around to loading for it yet.

The very earliest Universals (4-digit serial numbers) were made with mostly GI parts. In fact, some of them seem to have escaped with certain M2 parts such as sears and hammers, and even early WWII parts like the "high wood" stocks. Unfortunately as original parts dried up the later Universals increasingly re-engineered the gun to the point where parts won't interchange.

They are expensive, but for anyone sitting on the fence who thinks they want one I would say take the hit and get a GI carbine and you will enjoy that puppy.

 

[somethingbenign]

Every time I handle one or my wife handles one we both walk away thinking how great a rifle they would be to have. Have a hard time paying the current prices for a used rifle I will toss around and the reproduction ones inspire less confidence per the reviews. Maybe someone else will find a way to make new ones that live up to the hype.

 

[CapnMac]

if they weren't so expensive!

"We" were spoiled by all those barrels of Carbines for $20 that sat around for so long.
The early collectors set the bar pretty high, about 10-12 variants are considered a "full" collection. And some of those guys earned the oddballs, too--picking through a hundred or so of those crates to find an UNStandard in the days before internet and the like was some work. That was also driving to a hundred different stores to get that Rockola or NPM, too.

Since 1995, the supply has dried up significantly, and prices have increased proportionately. That's the nature of markets.
CMP has been a bit mum on how many lend/Lease Carbines are still in ROK--it could be as few as a 1000. So, if they got those, they'd probably go straight to the Auction site. There's supposed to be right at 10,000 that were bought outright by the ROK National Police, which would have to come through an importer (condition on those is said to be poor, too).
The other issue is that the post-war commercial version Carbines were not built to a uniformly high standard. Which makes those a pig-in-a-poke. The modern commercial versions in the last decade are emulating their forebears, sadly.
Which further increases the value of the wartime production versions.

Almost makes a person wonder what would happen were Winchester to re-release it's .32WSL carbine in .30carbine (.32 win self-loading functionally the exact same as .30carb and all).

 

[35 Whelen]

One of the coolest guns ever made. PPU (Prvi) also makes soft point ammo for it that is advertised at 2001 fps. I recently scored some bullets and a set of dies for it but haven't gotten around to loading for it yet.

The very earliest Universals (4-digit serial numbers) were made with mostly GI parts. In fact, some of them seem to have escaped with certain M2 parts such as sears and hammers, and even early WWII parts like the "high wood" stocks. Unfortunately as original parts dried up the later Universals increasingly re-engineered the gun to the point where parts won't interchange.

They are expensive, but for anyone sitting on the fence who thinks they want one I would say take the hit and get a GI carbine and you will enjoy that puppy.

I bought a couple hundred rounds of the Prvi last year. GOOD stuff, if I weren't a handloader I'd have really stocked up on it because it shoots amazingly well.



I also just picked up a Universal with a <100,000 serial number. It appears to be all GI except for the trigger housing. While I'm not 100% positive, the parts in the trigger group appear to be GI. Probably doesn't matter because this carbine has been fired very, very little.

So far I've bought two M1's for $500 - $600 in the last year, both commercial models. One just has to be vigilant.

35W

 

[Speedo66]

I first had the pleasure of shooting a Carbine when I was about 12 in the late 50's. A friend's Dad took us to an outdoor range way out on LI in Calverton, quite a haul from NYC.

He brought an '03, an M-1 Garand, and a Carbine. We started with the '03, kind of a big kick at the bench for my 90 lb. body. Next was the M-1, even though it was the same $10 per hundred 30-06, you could feel the difference in recoil, a little lighter, so a little better.

Next the Carbine, yes! Loved it from the moment I first fired it, and promised myself to get one, someday. That someday came about 15 years later, for the princely sum of $75 from a brother officer who was a WWII Vet.

Still have it, but it will probably be going to my son soon. Hope he enjoys it as much as I did. It's not dead yet.

 

[Jimbo80]

The M1 Carbine is far and away my favorite long gun. Looks, no recoil, accuracy, and history. I take great pleasure just holding and looking at mine.

 

[GooseGestapo]

I bought a Plainfield repro .30Carbine. It shot remarkably well. However I found out it wasn’t allowed in the CMP carbine matches.
I traded it for a Saginaw S.G. with a 1944 Underwood barrel. Looks brand new, and the first few rounds I fired through it hesitated and failed to feed due to rough finish on the feed ramp. (factory FMJ).
After a few dozen shots the ramp polished in a bit and feed is now 100% reliable even with flat nose or semi-wadcutter cast bullets. Evidently it was post war refurbished. Has machined adjustable rear sight.
I don’t think it was ever shot enough to break in the new barrel after refurbishment.

Accuracy is dismal. Can’t figure out what’s wrong. Perhaps the throat is bad. Crown is good. Even tried an aftermarket repro wood stock and fitted per CMP article. Shoots 13” groups at 100yds.
Best load curiously is a 93gr plain base, cast lead round nose bullet powder coated and sized .311”.
Over 11.8gr of #2400, it runs 1,850fps and shoots 5-6” at 50yds. Throws cases over my shoulder at 4 o’clock into a 5gal bucket.
I’ve considered rebarreling with a Criterion barrel. Tried several times to get an RA from CMP, but never can.
Also afraid I’ll ruin value.
The Plainfield shot 2-3” at 50yds from prone but I had to replace front sight as It shot WAY high. NOS sight from Numrich put it dead on a 12” SR1 target at 100yds. Could easily hold the 9ring prone. The Saginaw won’t stay in the black...

 

[TTv2]

I had been lukewarm on .30 Carbine for a long time until Paul Harrell did a very good video covering the caliber and once he did the FMJ vs SP test, it was like a lightbulb going off. I can't say I have much interest in the M1 platform, it's antiquated, but a modern rifle built around .30 Carbine I would be down for it simply because it's easier to reload than .300 BLK, 7.62x39, and is equally as effective within 100 yards. I mean, what more can you ask for in a lightweight carbine? What, the ability to run 200+ grain subsonics?

 

[Oldschool shooter]

I have an AR15, not overly fond of it, but feel I shoyld gave one, if for no other reason than because Dems don't think we should have them. My go-to is a '43 vintage Saginaw Steering M1 carbine. It just "feels right" when I shoulder it.

 

[eastbank]

my rebuilt winchester carbine ain,t going any where while i,m alive.

 

[35 Whelen]

I bought a Plainfield repro .30Carbine. It shot remarkably well. However I found out it wasn’t allowed in the CMP carbine matches.
I traded it for a Saginaw S.G. with a 1944 Underwood barrel. Looks brand new, and the first few rounds I fired through it hesitated and failed to feed due to rough finish on the feed ramp. (factory FMJ).
After a few dozen shots the ramp polished in a bit and feed is now 100% reliable even with flat nose or semi-wadcutter cast bullets. Evidently it was post war refurbished. Has machined adjustable rear sight.
I don’t think it was ever shot enough to break in the new barrel after refurbishment.

Accuracy is dismal. Can’t figure out what’s wrong. Perhaps the throat is bad. Crown is good. Even tried an aftermarket repro wood stock and fitted per CMP article. Shoots 13” groups at 100yds.
Best load curiously is a 93gr plain base, cast lead round nose bullet powder coated and sized .311”.
Over 11.8gr of #2400, it runs 1,850fps and shoots 5-6” at 50yds. Throws cases over my shoulder at 4 o’clock into a 5gal bucket.
I’ve considered rebarreling with a Criterion barrel. Tried several times to get an RA from CMP, but never can.
Also afraid I’ll ruin value.
The Plainfield shot 2-3” at 50yds from prone but I had to replace front sight as It shot WAY high. NOS sight from Numrich put it dead on a 12” SR1 target at 100yds. Could easily hold the 9ring prone. The Saginaw won’t stay in the black...

I recently bought an Israel Arms International M1 Carbine. When firing at 100 yds., it will put a couple of shots close together, then throw one 6" high, and continue this pattern. I haven' messed with it much yet, but what I have discovered is the Type 3 barrel band fits loosely on the barrel; I can actually feel the barrel moving in the band. I mic'ed the barrel and it appears to be the same diameter as my other carbines, which would point to an out of spec barrel band. Before I replace the band, I'm going to try to shim this one with aluminum, much like the aluminum found in my empty beer cans. Point is, you might check the fit of your barrel band. Also, have you seen the diagram of how the recoil plate should fit to the receiver? Have you slugged the bore to check for tight spots? Lastly, and you probably know this, but when the action is in the stock, and before the handguard and barrel band is in place, the barrel should have about a 1/8" gap between its underside and the forearm.

Back in December I picked up a used, mid-60's production Universal. It had been fired so little, that the bluing hadn't even been worn off the feed ramp. Although I'm still testing loads, this one appears to be a very accurate example shooting some groups 3" and less.



35W

 

[GooseGestapo]

Thanks, but been there, done that.
I’ve gone through everything short of re- reaming the chamber or rebarreling. I’ve tried various degrees of tightness of barrel band. It is a type 3.

The only pattern is no pattern. It shoots nice round groups. 10rds looks like a pattern from a 10pellet 12ga buckshot load.

Might be a heat treat issue with the barrel.

My Plainfield shot about like that Universal. Nice shooting btw.

 

[35 Whelen]

I had been lukewarm on .30 Carbine for a long time until Paul Harrell did a very good video covering the caliber and once he did the FMJ vs SP test, it was like a lightbulb going off. I can't say I have much interest in the M1 platform, it's antiquated, but a modern rifle built around .30 Carbine I would be down for it simply because it's easier to reload than .300 BLK, 7.62x39, and is equally as effective within 100 yards. I mean, what more can you ask for in a lightweight carbine? What, the ability to run 200+ grain subsonics?

I don't think the platform is antiquated, at all. Seems everyone inevitably compares it to the AR, which would be no different than comparing it to the Garand. The AR and the Garand were both designed to be frontline battle rifles while the Carbine was designed as a personal defense weapon, you know, "just in case". When used in it's original configuration, that is with 15 round magazines and no optics, it's a trim, light, handy defense weapon with the capability of being used to 150-200 yds. if needed. I find the platform much more intuitive and simple, especially where non-gunny folks are concerned. If there happens to be some sort of stoppage, with the AR you're peering into a dark slit trying to figure what's wrong, while with the M1 it's just a matter of glancing at the top of the receiver.

As far as loading the cartridge, I suppose it is a bit easier than a bottleneck cartridge, but I'd sure like to find and try a carbide die.
35W

 

[Whiterook808]

As far as loading the cartridge, I suppose it is a bit easier than a bottleneck cartridge, but I'd sure like to find and try a carbide die.

You still have to lube the cases with a carbide die, so unless you plan on loading tens of thousands of rounds it isn't worth the extra money. Aside from lubing cases and watching for stretch, 30C is just like loading handgun ammo.

 

[35 Whelen]

You still have to lube the cases with a carbide die, so unless you plan on loading tens of thousands of rounds it isn't worth the extra money. Aside from lubing cases and watching for stretch, 30C is just like loading handgun ammo.

Which is what I've read, and hence the reason I haven't sprung for a carbide die...yet. But, I use a carbide 9mm die sans lube, and it works OK.

35W

 

[AK103K]

Just curious, but why would you have to lube the cases with a carbide die?

I load a good bit of 30 Carbine and really dont mind using lube. Be nice not to have to though, but I really dont remember seeing carbide dies for it.

I load a ton of all sorts of pistol calibers with carbide dies and never lube them.

 

[35 Whelen]

Just curious, but why would you have to lube the cases with a carbide die?

I load a good bit of 30 Carbine and really dont mind using lube. Be nice not to have to though, but I really dont remember seeing carbide dies for it.

I load a ton of all sorts of pistol calibers with carbide dies and never lube them.

Because of the taper of the case, is my understanding, but then again, the 9mm case tapers too. Who knows, this could be one of those unfounded internet rumors.

35W

 

[AK103K]

Because of the taper of the case, is my understanding, but then again, the 9mm case tapers too. Who knows, this could be one of those unfounded internet rumors.

35W

Ive heard similar in the past too.

For some reason, even with lube, I still get 30 Carbine cases that feel like they want to stick, and Im not stingy with the lube either. Dont now whats up with that.

I used to load a lot of 357SIG in the past and used a 40 carbide die to initially size them, so I didnt need to lube them. A couple of times I forgot and skipped the step and still had no troubles loading them without lube in the 357SIG die. Ive actually inadvertently turned 40 S&W cases into 357SIG cases a few times.

Not trying dry cases with the Carbine brass though.

 

[Whiterook808]

Who knows, this could be one of those unfounded interne

If it is, then the die manufacturers have bought into it. It is s much longer case than 9mm Parabellum.

 

[AK103K]

If it is, then the die manufacturers have bought into it. It is s much longer case than 9mm Parabellum.

Not much longer than 44mag., 45Colt, etc. and they work fine with carbide dies.

 

[AK103K]

Just looking quick, the Carbine and the 44mag are roughly the same length. 1.28"

 

[Whiterook808]

Not much longer than 44mag., 45Colt, etc. and they work fine with carbide dies.

Straight walled cartridges, all. In any case you don't have to believe me. Find a die manufacturer that does not state that lube is required for their 30 Carbine dies or post in the reloading forum.

 

[GooseGestapo]

It’s the taper and the hardness of the brass in the web.
I have both Lyman non-carbide and Lee carbide die sets. I was gifted the Lyman. I bought the Lee set, as on sale, it was the same price as the Carbide die alone...
I DO use lube with the carbide die as I also use lube with the 9mm w/carbide dies.
Spraying a 2second shot of Pledge type furniture wax in a 2qt bowl then placing brass in bowl and swirling coats the brass without getting lube IN the cases.
Greatly eases the effort to size the cases. Prevents shearing a case head sticking a case. A $2 can lasts several years if my wife doesn’t swipe it to use on the furniture.

Because of the generous chambers and significant taper, the cases do grow, but after the first trimming don’t require immediate retrimming. 7-10 loadings before retrimming necessary in my experience.
Speer makes a marvelous 110gr JHP that makes an outstanding general purpose load. A 15.0gr load of H110/Win296 will deliver over 2,000fps and over 1,000fpe. Definitely enough for hunting smaller big game or self defense at modest ranges.

Curiously, my Ruger .30Carbine BlackHawk is significantly more accurate than the rifle, and unlike its reputation, no louder than a .357, .44, or 10mm with full power loads, and with quality ammo, delightfully accurate. You WILL be reminded to wear Adequate hearing protection!!!

 

[TTv2]

You still have to lube the cases with a carbide die, so unless you plan on loading tens of thousands of rounds it isn't worth the extra money. Aside from lubing cases and watching for stretch, 30C is just like loading handgun ammo.

Lubing is fine, I have a cheap homemade lube solution, and I can lube quite a few cases at once and run them thru the sizer, it's the trimming that I don't care to deal with and if what Goose said above that cases can go up to 10 loads before trimming is needed, that's perfectly fine for me, I would be shooting maybe a max of 200 rds a year of it, but would keep 500 to 1000 rds of soft points loaded and stored in an ammo can for whatever.

Basically, I may never need to trim the cases my whole life whereas for .300 BLK or 7.62x39 I would have to trim them more frequently.