Not Dead Yet: M1 Carbine

[AK103K]

Lube is generally a PITA. Trimming even worse. Ill take lubing over trimming though, but Id prefer not to do either. Much prefer loading handgun over rifle.

I usually shoot 50-100 rounds every other week of 30 Carbine, depending on my mood, and nowadays, depending on how long the primers hold out. Thats going to start to be more of a limiting factor than anything else here before to long. Bullets are drying up quick now too. Unfortunately, the places I deal with that will let you order and ship when they come in, dont seem to carry 30 Carbine. Or at least they arent a priority like some of the others.

I havent been keeping a close count on when I last trimmed, but Ive cycled through the ten or so boxes that I load and shoot now a number of times and its been awhile. I check them each time and deal with it as needed.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

I had been lukewarm on .30 Carbine for a long time until Paul Harrell did a very good video covering the caliber and once he did the FMJ vs SP test, it was like a lightbulb going off. I can't say I have much interest in the M1 platform, it's antiquated, but a modern rifle built around .30 Carbine I would be down for it simply because it's easier to reload than .300 BLK, 7.62x39, and is equally as effective within 100 yards. I mean, what more can you ask for in a lightweight carbine? What, the ability to run 200+ grain subsonics?

Why is it “antiquated” and something newer would be better? Not enough plastic and rails? Honestly just curious to see if you’ve ever even owned one?

 

[TTv2]

Why is it “antiquated” and something newer would be better? Not enough plastic and rails? Honestly just curious to see if you’ve ever even owned one?

I just think something could be more modern, perhaps designed around ease of production, reducing cost, simplifying manufacturing.

 

[AK103K]

As much as I like my Carbines, my AR's, pistols and carbines, leave them pretty much in the dust in accuracy and performance. Flexibility, and ammo availability with the AR's is a big plus as well.

The Carbines are cool, fun guns, and a hoot to shoot and they will do what they were designed to do if its all you have, but as with most things more current, there are just better choices available.

 

[ATCDoktor]

I have 2 M1 Carbines, an Inland that I’ve had for about 7-8 years that was refurbished at some point in its life and a Universal I picked up back in 2019.

My Inland



Here’s the Universal I picked up at a pre Christmas Gunshow back in 2019 for the princely sum of $400.

It came with 350 rounds of GI ammo, 7 USGI 15 round magazines, two 5 round magazines and a canvas carrying bag (and a stylish loaded Winchester 243 round for the sling keeper in the stock).

At least half a dozen vendors looked at the package and refused to give the owner the $400 he was asking for it because it was a Universal (it has a4 digit serial number 95% GI parts).

It’s been 100% reliable with everything I’ve fired through it including Tula, Wolf, handloads and USGI ammo it came with.

 

[35 Whelen]

I have 2 M1 Carbines, an Inland that I’ve had for about 7-8 years that was refurbished at some point in its life and a Universal I picked up back in 2019.

My Inland
View attachment 974053


Here’s the Universal I picked up at a pre Christmas Gunshow back in 2019 for the princely sum of $400.
View attachment 974054
It came with 350 rounds of GI ammo, 7 USGI 15 round magazines, two 5 round magazines and a canvas carrying bag (and a stylish loaded Winchester 243 round for the sling keeper in the stock).

At least half a dozen vendors looked at the package and refused to give the owner the $400 he was asking for it because it was a Universal (it has a4 digit serial number 95% GI parts).

It’s been 100% reliable with everything I’ve fired through it including Tula, Wolf, handloads and USGI ammo it came with.

Ah yes, you got one of the good Universals, one can tell at a glance by the slide. Looks like it's fairly accurate too.

35W

 

[35 Whelen]

As much as I like my Carbines, my AR's, pistols and carbines, leave them pretty much in the dust in accuracy and performance. Flexibility, and ammo availability with the AR's is a big plus as well.

The Carbines are cool, fun guns, and a hoot to shoot and they will do what they were designed to do if its all you have, but as with most things more current, there are just better choices available.

The AR platform certainly can be more accurate than a Carbine. My AR's with issue sights will group handloads into about 3" at 200 yds. My Carbines will group handloads into 6" at the same range. Does the difference matter? Not to todays average shooter. The few times I've been to public ranges, and from watching friends shoot here at the house, your average AR-toting defender of freedom does good to keep his shots on a silhouette target at 25 yds. and by and large they seem more interested in how fast they can empty a magazine than what they hit. It's the indian, not the arrow. Give a rifleman either and he'll do fine.

As to cartridge performance, it's like arguing deer hunting calibers. But a .30 caliber bullet will always start out larger than a .22 caliber bullet, and the smaller of the two relies on special projectiles to perform effectively. But again, a person who can place shots properly will be efficient with either.

35W

 

[AK103K]

The AR platform certainly can be more accurate than a Carbine. My AR's with issue sights will group handloads into about 3" at 200 yds. My Carbines will group handloads into 6" at the same range. Does the difference matter? Not to todays average shooter. The few times I've been to public ranges, and from watching friends shoot here at the house, your average AR-toting defender of freedom does good to keep his shots on a silhouette target at 25 yds. and by and large they seem more interested in how fast they can empty a magazine than what they hit. It's the indian, not the arrow. Give a rifleman either and he'll do fine.

As to cartridge performance, it's like arguing deer hunting calibers. But a .30 caliber bullet will always start out larger than a .22 caliber bullet, and the smaller of the two relies on special projectiles to perform effectively. But again, a person who can place shots properly will be efficient with either.

35W

The three Carbines I have, don't shoot anywhere near as well as any of my AR's, so from that rifleman aspect, there is a pretty big difference. Anyone shooting like you describe above isn't going to do any better with a Carbine.

I hope your not serious about the caliber differences. Anywhere within the Carbines range, the 5.56 is WAY more distructive, even with fmj type bullets. A 110 grain SP at 2000 fps is nothing like a 55 grain Nosler BT at 3000 fps. Trust me. One punches a smallish hole through a little critter at 50 yards, the other turns it into a meat grenade, with hair, teethh and eyeballs all over the yard.

 

[Elkins45]

My dad was issued a carbine as part of a mortar crew in Korea. He had nothing good to say about them. He never elaborated but I had the impression he found it lacking in several regards.

 

[amd6547]

I picked up this Auto Ordnance in it's Choate folder last year. It shoots great.. good enough that I've retired my CMP Inland.
While I would be satisfied with any of the standard old soft point loads, I am currently loading Hornady Critical Defense for my home defense load.

 

[MartinS]

As long as it weighs around 6 pounds loaded, stays combat reliable and keeps looking so cute and cool, it'll be around.

 

[Bayou52]

A while back, I was given a 1980 vintage Iver Johnson carbine. It had some cycling issues. One day while out shooting, the cast aluminum trigger housing just broke. I replaced the entire trigger assembly with a new Fulton Armory one. I also replaced the recoil spring with a new Wolff Extra Power spring.

With these two mods, what was just a run of the mill shooter became a really great shooter. Extremely reliable cycling with no hang-ups or failures to feed.

Fortunately, the parts on this Iver Johnson are interchangeable with GI parts.

Bayou52

 

[EIB0879]

My sister use to use an M-1 carbine to hunt with but up gunned to an AR-10 clone a couple of years ago. They have a couple of M-1 Carbines for their grad daughters to hunt with when they get older. My father killed his first deer with one in the mid sixties.

 

[Jimbo80]

[QUOTE="AK103K]The Carbines are cool, fun guns, and a hoot to shoot and they will do what they were designed to do if its all you have, but as with most things more current, there are just better choices available.[/QUOTE]

The AR is indeed a better choice if you're going into combat. I'm not so I'll take the cool and fun to shoot M1 Carbine any day just like I would take a '70 Charger over a new better performing Hellcat Charger.

 

[MosinT53Hunter]

There are many pros and cons to the M1 Carbine, as are there also for the AR-15, AK-47, etc, etc.

I choose the M1 Carbine for my own tastes and needs. I enjoy wood and steel over aluminum and plastic. I like the .30 Carbine round over all.
Shooting at targets is enjoyable with minimal recoil and no constant "twang" next to my ear.

I am not alone in liking the handy M1. Carbine, as they are still being produced and used, and is popular as it ever was, even though there are many, many other more viable options and calibers out there.
If one is going into combat, you use what you have, not what you have not. So be used to what you have, and don't sweat the small stuff.

Just my two cents. Carry on.

 

[Speedo66]

It doesn't matter to me that it's not the best combat arm or the best target rifle.

Some guns are just fun to own and shoot, and the Carbine is one of them. Of course, the historical value and the fact that it is still appreciating nicely are a plus.

I'm fine with it just the way it is.

 

[35 Whelen]

I have one Inland that I'm getting ready to sell that is a particularly accurate example, and I have no idea why.

The three Carbines I have, don't shoot anywhere near as well as any of my AR's, so from that rifleman aspect, there is a pretty big difference. Anyone shooting like you describe above isn't going to do any better with a Carbine.

I hope your not serious about the caliber differences. Anywhere within the Carbines range, the 5.56 is WAY more distructive, even with fmj type bullets. A 110 grain SP at 2000 fps is nothing like a 55 grain Nosler BT at 3000 fps. Trust me. One punches a smallish hole through a little critter at 50 yards, the other turns it into a meat grenade, with hair, teethh and eyeballs all over the yard.

Right, I didn't say Carbine would make someone shoot better, only that a more accurate rifle is moot if you can't shoot in the first place.

Of course I'm serious about the cartridges, and you reinforced my point by comparing the performance a varmint bullet to to that of a FMJ; the 5.56 requires specialized bullets. The one you mention is a varmint bullet designed to expand very rapidly on small animals. Problem is, bullets like these have very poor penetration, and I know that from first-hand experience.

Before the cuddling infatuation of the AR platform spilled over to the 5.56 cartridge, cartridges of this power level were considered best for hunting varmints size game at ranges under 300 yds. I totally agree that the original 110 gr. FMJ isn't much of a performer, very much like the 55 gr. FMJ. But evidently it wasn't all that bad:



In the end, within the Carbine's range no one hit properly with a decent bullet from either cartridge is going to do much arguing.

35W

 

[AK103K]

No doubt, a well-placed shot with either will do the trick, and not arguing the point there at all. In fact, its been my argument for the Carbines historical/anecdotal lack of power and performance all along. Its the difference between "shooting at" and "actually shooting" something. And that always comes back to the shooter.

Having seen first hand what even FMJ 55 rounds from an AR do to meaty things, within that 300 yards or so of "extra" ballistic envelope that they have, where they are a bit more than just a 22, and especially up close, there is a good bit of difference in damage over the 30 Carbine, FMJ or SP.

That extra 1000fps of velocity difference and the damage it brings is very noticeable, FMJ or not.

Ive shot quite a few "smaller" critters in the yard over the years, with both 55 gr. FMJ and NBT 5.56, and Ive shot a few with 123-125 gr. 7.672x39, FMJ and SP. The 7.62x39 really isnt all that much different than the 30 Carbine if you look at the numbers, 15 grains in weight and ~400 fps.

Pretty much every critter Ive shot with the 5.56 was explosive in nature. Anything I shot with the 7.62 just punched a fairly small hole through it. If I had to get shot and had a choice, Id take the 7.62.

Now, bump that lighter .30 caliber round up another 1000 fps to where the 5.56 is, and Im thinking it would be a different critter altogether.

 

[35 Whelen]

That extra 1000fps of velocity difference and the damage it brings is very noticeable, FMJ or not.

Ive shot quite a few "smaller" critters in the yard over the years, with both 55 gr. FMJ and NBT 5.56, and Ive shot a few with 123-125 gr. 7.672x39, FMJ and SP. The 7.62x39 really isnt all that much different than the 30 Carbine if you look at the numbers, 15 grains in weight and ~400 fps.

Pretty much every critter Ive shot with the 5.56 was explosive in nature. Anything I shot with the 7.62 just punched a fairly small hole through it. If I had to get shot and had a choice, Id take the 7.62.

Now, bump that lighter .30 caliber round up another 1000 fps to where the 5.56 is, and Im thinking it would be a different critter altogether.

Many years ago I went through a phase in which I hunted with a Ruger 77V with a 26" barrel, chambered in 220 Swift. If you think a .224" 55 gr. bullet does things at a relatively casual 2900-3000 fps, you wouldn't believe what happens when you add 800-900 fps. My deer hunting load was a 55 gr. Sierra BTSP at 3850 fps and it literally exploded small, soft targets. The problem is these light, fast bullets do not offer penetration on larger, firmer targets. It will be the same with your Ballistic Tips if you have to shoot anything other than small critters. These light fast bullets simply don't have the ability to penetrate to where the damage needs to be done. This is where the larger, slower bullets can in some cases be more effective.

35W

 

[AK103K]

Understood, thats where the FMJ's and some of the heavier bullets come in. A bit more versatility and they dont seem to have any problems in the penetration respect.

The Noslers are my "precision rounds" and will work well on more appropriate targets. Dont get this kind of accuracy with any of my Carbines at 100 yards.



As I said, I really like my Carbines, and I like the round, for what it is, but, it is what it is, and really not a "rifle" round. As long as you have a realistic outlook on its use, and you can shoot, it should do you fine.

Shot this earlier this week with my one Winchester. Close range, fast reactive shooting. No sights (sorta*), just shooting over the gun in two to three round bursts from 20-15 yards and in.



In regards to "sorta". I paint the ears on the front sights for low light and "point shooting". Makes for a quick easy reference when youre not actually consciously looking at the sights.

 

[Nuclear]

I really like the 30 Carbine and the AR15, for different reasons and purposes. For defensive purposes or small game at rifle ranges, outdoors, the AR wins. For defensive purposes indoors or medium game at handgun ranges outdoors, the 30 Carbine wins.

A question no one can ever answer for me, is why gun with a steel receiver with an 18" barrel and wood stock is significantly lighter than an Aluminum and plastic gun. So if I'm going out tramping though the woods and I want to carry a long gun, the 30 Carbine wins.

 

[kBob]

I know a lot of the younger guys are totally unaware of Marshall & Sanow and sadly even Dr. Fackler that was billed as their arch enemy

M&S looked at recorded police shootings and studied the percentage of "one shot stops" of torso shots by arm and amunition.

Yes the old "widow maker" 158 grain Round Nose Lead tended to produce only 49 percent or less one shot stops.

That nasty old M1 .30 Carbine that is so ineffective produced depending on the year between 89 and 90 percent one shot stops....with FMJ.

Mind you this was against unarmored "civilians" and not through any cover... but 90 percent is nothing to sneeze at and actually out performed much of the Hollowpoint "defensive handgun" ammunition on the market at the time and stomped FMJ 9x19 mm pretty bad.

This was one cartridge and gun combination that Dr. Fackler would not argue with them over. He preferred Soft Point or the so called hollow point of the time (picture the same Soft point bullet the other big american cartridge company made in the 1970's but with a pin hole in the end) and delighted in showing a high speed x ray of such a cartridge at maximum temporary stretch cavity in a human cadaver that was basically grape fruit sized and mostly filled the area between front and back ribs. In his retirement his bedside Home defense gun was a USGI M1 Carbine with SP ammo.

So both the number crunchers and the "Gel Guy" (who saw a boat load of actual flesh and based his Gel studies on that) both thought the USGI Carbine a pretty decent fight stopper.

Good enough for me.

-kBob

 

[rdmercer]

There are many pros and cons to the M1 Carbine, as are there also for the AR-15, AK-47, etc, etc.

I choose the M1 Carbine for my own tastes and needs. I enjoy wood and steel over aluminum and plastic. I like the .30 Carbine round over all.
Shooting at targets is enjoyable with minimal recoil and no constant "twang" next to my ear.

I am not alone in liking the handy M1. Carbine, as they are still being produced and used, and is popular as it ever was, even though there are many, many other more viable options and calibers out there.
If one is going into combat, you use what you have, not what you have not. So be used to what you have, and don't sweat the small stuff.

Just my two cents. Carry on.

 

[rdmercer]

From most of the pictures that were taken of the climb to Mt. Suribachi it appears that the largest majority of combat rifles carried to the summit were M1 carbines. That speaks volumes when it comes to assessing the killing ability of the little rifle.

 

[Gordon]

Understood, thats where the FMJ's and some of the heavier bullets come in. A bit more versatility and they dont seem to have any problems in the penetration respect.

The Noslers are my "precision rounds" and will work well on more appropriate targets. Dont get this kind of accuracy with any of my Carbines at 100 yards.

View attachment 974766

As I said, I really like my Carbines, and I like the round, for what it is, but, it is what it is, and really not a "rifle" round. As long as you have a realistic outlook on its use, and you can shoot, it should do you fine.

Shot this earlier this week with my one Winchester. Close range, fast reactive shooting. No sights (sorta*), just shooting over the gun in two to three round bursts from 20-15 yards and in.

View attachment 974767

In regards to "sorta". I paint the ears on the front sights for low light and "point shooting". Makes for a quick easy reference when youre not actually consciously looking at the sights.

View attachment 974768

Hmmmm, I knew a retired CIA guy I met at a Awerbuck training session with carbines at the Merced Sheriff's dept grounds . He painted his fron sight just like that and beat the brakes off almost all the guys at those short ranges of 50 yards and under with his Winchester M1 Carbine !