NRA and Libertarians

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A radio commercial might influence one to choose Pepsi over Coke at the gas station. However, it probably won't get them to do something they never would, like drink battery acid.

How about fluoride? Most of us just have to consume that potentially harmfull and certainly usefull by-product of industrial processes because the governments mandate it in our drinking water based on questionable evidence - but many of us do buy fluoridated toothpaste, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation_controversy

miko
 
The problem with continuing to vote Republican is that your vote supports not only RKBA but also war in Iraq, increased taxes, huge new spending programs, expanding entitlements, and a government that is growing at a rate faster than at any time since WWII.

Which is fine if you support all those things yourself. For those of us who don't, it's a problem.

I was a single issue voter for a long time, and the Repubs got my vote because I agreed with a lot of their stuff (small government, lower taxes, economic conservatism) while the Dems were pretty clearly opposite that. Now it's getting pretty hard to tell the difference between the two, and I'm having a hard time with being a single-issue voter.

So for me it's no longer a choice between the lesser of evils, it's a vote between two almost equal -- and often indistinguishable -- evils. I guess one way to look at it is that, well, as long as I'm voting for evil, I may as well pick the evil that lets me keep my guns.

Another way to look at it is "Hell with this. I'm voting Libertarian."

I agree, although i dont blame the republican party for some of these things. I blame Bush and his administration for suspending Habeus Corpus, Making Geneva conventions optional, going to war for a stupid reason, and other things that have torn this country apart. Republicans are usually smarter than that, so im not blaming them for all of this, as i know many Repubs and Conservatives who dont support Bush.
 
How about fluoride?

Oh, AWESOME!

Only 4 pages, and we've already gotten to Flouride. It must be election season (which is a lot sexier in Japan, I assure you).
 
The Vast majority of Republicans believe in freedom of religion, any religion, whereas much of the DNC (and an alarming number of Libertarians) believe freedom of religion means freedom FROM religion ... in other words, religious people (especially Christians) should be barred from speaking in public lest they make an agnostic uncomfortable ... they believe the official state religion should be atheism. And we should pretend Christianity never existed.

Ah, but the amendment reads, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”…it does not say ‘Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of a specific religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof’, because it means, any religion, which means no religion. So yes, the First Amendment does encompass freedom from religion.

A portion of the Conservative Republican platform revolves around religious-centric values, abortion, the death penalty etc…there’s a reason someone coined the phrase, “The Religious Right”. Either you’re embarrassed to admit that, or you’re really missing the boat.

I’ve never seen a mainstream Democratic bill that would outlaw the free expression of religion as it relates to private citizens, only in state or federally funded institutions or services. No who’s talking party-line talking points? Come on man, read what you’re posting.

And as minor point of interest, talking about religion in public wouldn’t make an “Agnostic” uncomfortable, we tend to think religious folks are just as odd as Atheists…people pretending to know that which they cannot to the point that they feel they can decide how others should feel is often comical to us, so long as the government isn’t saying that one way or the other.


Who will be slienced by their party (and never put in a position where they can effect the battle over gun control) or who will abandon their pro-gun or mostly pro-gun views so they can get in good graces with the party power structure.

Where are all these pro-gun Democrats? What committees are they on? Lots of Democrats start out with pro-gun views and then we see their names on the rolls voting for AWB extensions and .50BMG bans.

No-sir, a pro-gun Democrat will either have to change his tune or the party will end their career.


I count at least 42 Democrats in the PA State house that have A- ratings or better from the NRA.

I count 22 that have a rating of 92 or better from the GOA (2 in the State Senate, the rest in the State House).

In current races here in PA, the only data available last month shows that in the popular elections here in PA this coming November, only one candidate received an A from the NRA and voted favorable to the GOA at least 75% of the time on gun issues, and that was Murtha, a Democrat. New data is out now, though I haven’t had a chance to view it yet.

I’m not going to go through all 50 states for you at both the state and Federal level, I did that earlier this year for my own benefit and the results were not very supportive of your stance here. I can pretty much guarantee that there are hundreds of A-rated Democrats from the NRA in politics and at least 150 rated very favorably by the GOA (as their rating are a bit more strict).

In order to get these ratings (which can be flawed), generally a politician has to show a pretty consistent record (at least over the last so many years) that supports that rating. They don’t get it by voting pro-gun only once.

So there goes your talking points. I think it’s best if we just let our discussion go, I can’t really discuss something with someone that ignores data and evidence and is being disingenuous with their summation of the reality of the situation.
 
I count at least 42 Democrats in the PA State house that have A- ratings or better from the NRA.

PA is the exception, not the rule. That said, voting for the Democrat when you think that certain Democrat is a good choice is, of course, a good idea IMO.

So yes, the First Amendment does encompass freedom from religion.

Sure. But it depends on what you mean. I am not religious. However, there's nothing in the First Amendment that suggest that my Constitutional rights include being "protected" from having to see/hear/smell anything having to do with religion, any more than a born-again Christian has the right to be insulated from the sight/sound/smell of an atheist.
 
Given what people have been saying about how the two party system goes on until one party majorly screws up, and then a third party has the opportunity to step in--wouldn't now be a good time for Libertarians? Don't get me wrong, I view the Reps as the lesser of the two evils over the Dems, but the Reps have gotten nothing but bad press since W has been in office. I'm not saying I agree with the liberal media; on the contrary, I can't stand the anti crap that gets shoved down our throat in every medium.

But I do think that both the Reps & Dems have lost sight of the Constitution long ago and now are nothing more than large corporations competing for power. How do they get power? By getting a majority vote. How do they get that? They try to say what they think the majority of people will want to hear. It's all a bunch of BS and lies.

So why not the Libertarians now? Amidst the media frenzy over the latest Republican scandals, Libertarians could get numbers up. I'm not saying they could win this election. I don't live in a dream world. But I do agree with whoever said that if enough people "throw away" their vote to Libertarians, it sends a message. Then maybe next time around more people will do the same. I know that people will say the down side is that the Dems would win for sure if we all vote Libertarian, but at the same time it's hard to not vote for someone who you think is what this country needs only to keep someone else out of office. I can see it both ways, though. I'd hate to see an ambulance chaser like Edwards, or worse yet Hilary, in office. Man, this is a tough one.

Thoughts? Just was thinking this stuff as I was reading about the two party system stuff.
 
ArmedBear, it means that we all have the same protection against the Government passing a law establishing any religion (or any group of religions or religious edicts, decrees, laws or whatever) whatsoever...it has nothing to do with the conduct of private citizens or being offended.
 
NRA doesn't disrespect Libertarians, it just doesn't find them useful to the cause.

George Will put it best (approximate quote): "The problem with Libertarian candidates is that they all look like high school algebra teachers trying to privatize the sidewalk."

Aside of the practical fears of voters 'throwing away the vote' (which Ron Paul must agree with a bit, as he changed to a Republican), most of the Libertarian candidates I've seen seem to rant & rave a bit too much to be acceptable. You don't see too many sharp suits or shined shoes in this crowd, they're not always clean-shaven, and they scare away some folks with talk of drug legalization. (Sure, the War on Some Drugs is lost, useless, money-wasting, and every DEA agent needs to be in the unemployment line, but it doesn't have to be a prime plank in your platform, it scares soccer mommies.)

Libertarians appear to try to garner mid-level and upper-level offices when what they really need to do is remember Tip O'Neill's mantra, "all politics is local" and get jobs on the school board, city council, harbor commission, etc.

They'll learn a lot about ground politics that way, and the essence of "how to win".

I am sure the NRA would back a libertarian in the right setting. But they're not gonna throw their support to a likely non-winner instead of a winner they can reward/punish in the future.


Bill Wiese
San Jose CA
 
It seems to me like some people feel that even though they agree with the LP platform and candidates they would rather vote for GOP candidates or Dems because the Libertarians will never win. I hate to break it to you but if you all keep thinking that you'll definately be right. Well, I suppose 90% percent of the population could feel the same way and the LP will never win. The only way they will get MORE votes is by getting SOME votes. Then more and more. Eventually I think a vast majority will see the light. I refuse to vote any party line or any single issue. I vote for people I agree with. I'm glad I don't have a defeatist attitude.
 
I refuse to vote any party line or any single issue. I vote for people I agree with.

I agree. I vote based on where they stand on the issues that are most important to me. I don't align 100% with any political party. I have a hard time believing anyone truly does agree 100% with any political party on every issue. On key issues, yes, but on every issue... doubtful.
 
The only way they will get MORE votes is by getting SOME votes. Then more and more. Eventually I think a vast majority will see the light. I refuse to vote any party line or any single issue. I vote for people I agree with. I'm glad I don't have a defeatist attitude.

So how many elections do you think it would be appropriate to lose in your quest for more votes? I like the idea of the Libertarian party, but they don't run electable people. Just how many of you folks ever talked to Badnarik? I wouldn't trust that guy to get lunch, let alone run the country.
 
Wonder what would happen if a Libertarian managed to get 22% of the vote, even if they lost...what happens next election?

This is exactly why I'm going to vote for Art Olivier for Governor of California. Schwarzenegger is going to win... but what happens if enough people are turned off by his treachery on illegal immigration and his reversal of policy after his poorly-planned 2005 special election backfired on him? What happens if the Libertarian candidate captures a few more percentage points? What happens if more people become aware of the Libertarian party, and join, volunteer, donate, etc?

This country would be a heck of a lot better off with most Democrats and an awful lot of Republicans out of office.
 
I'm not voting for the Republicans, I'm voting AGAINST the Liberals!:D
 
So they should just get out of the way then? To hell with their pro-liberty views, right, let's just all vote Republican and get bigger government and the erosion of our rights just as much as we'd get from the big D's, just in different areas.

Why can’t Libertarians infiltrate the Republican Party and leverage off their money, name recognition, and political apparatus ? Isn’t that what the socialists did with the Democrats ?
 
There are 2 main criteria for getting an endorsement from the NRA.

1) you have to be pro gun (likely have to score an "A")
2) you have to be able (and for that matter likely) to win.

Actually they have been known to forget about rule 1. They gave money to Martin Frost back in the early 1990s, a very anti-gun Democrat. He won that election all right, ironically right as the Republicans started to take over Texas. AFTER the Republicans started to win in that area, then the NRA gave them money.

Lobbyists like to look like they have power even when they don't.
 
Why can’t Libertarians infiltrate the Republican Party and leverage off their money, name recognition, and political apparatus ? Isn’t that what the socialists did with the Democrats ?

That is what the Socialists did with the Democrats. However, they did it by promising to deliver subsidies to campaign contributors. Libertarians can only promise to reduce the burden on the average taxpayer... so until the average taxpayer starts getting their ideas somewhere other than TV, there's no ecological niche for an anti-corporate-welfare party.

(But you're still right, the rules are set up for two parties. The LP, Constitution, etc. parties waste most of their effort just getting on the ballots. It's easier to get a party on the ballot in Russia.)
 
Continues to tank? That assumes it is tanking currently, which I just don't see

Did the place where you worked for over 20 years, and thought you were going to retire from, suddenly shut you down DUE TO THE ECONOMY and kick you out the door, forcing you to take a job making just over minimum wage?


Don't tell me the economy's not tanking. More and more people are losing their jobs. 1,000 more in my city due to supermarkets closing DUE TO THE ECONOMY.
 
Don't tell me the economy's not tanking. More and more people are losing their jobs. 1,000 more in my city due to supermarkets closing DUE TO THE ECONOMY.

For you personally, maybe. For the nation as a whole, sorry not the case. In fact it is extremely good at the time being. The market has hit an all time high of over 12,000, unemployment is near record lows, gas prices have plummetted, home ownership is at an all time high, and mortgage rates which are near all time lows are going lower.
Just exactly which part of the economy in the nation caused your local supermarkets to close?
 
Why can’t Libertarians infiltrate the Republican Party and leverage off their money, name recognition, and political apparatus ?

http://www.rlc.org



Did the place where you worked for over 20 years, and thought you were going to retire from, suddenly shut you down DUE TO THE ECONOMY and kick you out the door, forcing you to take a job making just over minimum wage?
Businesses (sometimes big ones) close all the time, just because you lost your job doesn't mean the rest of the economy is in the toilet ... there are people who got rich in the depression of the '30s and people who lost it all in the boom of the '80s.

Overall the current economy is one of the strongest in human history.
 
Why can’t Libertarians infiltrate the Republican Party and leverage off their money, name recognition, and political apparatus ?

First of all, they would need to be little L libertarians. Until the RLC (Republican Liberty Caucus) gets off this thing about conferencing separately and having a platform that is verbatim LP, they don't get it.
 
Republicans regard humanity as naturally evil and depraved,
thus requiring government control.
Democrats regard humanity as naturally selfish and greedy,
thus requiring government control.
The common thread here would be control.
Republicans have hade control of the legislature since 1994. We now have the highest non military discretionary spending in history, replete with a 148 billion dollar no child's behind left out of a government school brainwashing and a 40 billion dollar war on some drugs. Bush said he would sign an AWB renewal, and if the dems get control of congress he will probably do so.
We have replaced the Constitution with a fallacious right to feel safe.
There is no viable conservative choice in the two party system. Saying the Republicans are a better alternative than the Democrats means that we need a better alternative.
 
Saying the Republicans are a better alternative than the Democrats means that we need a better alternative.

But you don't have one. It is those who pretend they do that can cause unintended consequences.
 
Did the place where you worked for over 20 years, and thought you were going to retire from, suddenly shut you down DUE TO THE ECONOMY and kick you out the door, forcing you to take a job making just over minimum wage?


Don't tell me the economy's not tanking. More and more people are losing their jobs. 1,000 more in my city due to supermarkets closing DUE TO THE ECONOMY.

No, but the small company I worked for was purchased by a rather large company and we doubled the total number of employees in my area. Unemployment is falling (5.1% in 2005 and the latest figure for September is 4.6% http://www.bls.gov/cps/home.htm ).
 
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