NY FFL Transfer Dilemma

[waterhouse]

Interesting situation, let us know how it turns out.

For those of you asking the OP to call the ATF, what exactly do you thing the ATF is going to do? As far as I can tell no federal firearms related violation occurred.

Where under federal law is the seller required to send a copy of his driver license with the firearm?

There is no federal law stating such. Dealers, however, must log the gun in under the acquisition column in the bound book, and the name and address of the person who sent the gun must be logged in.

You may think "hey, isn't that information on the return address? Why on earth do they need a copy of my license?" For starters, the return address doesn't prove much.

It would be like if someone walked in, placed a gun on the counter, and said they wanted to sell it. We'd agree on a price, and then I would ask for their ID to log the gun in. If they said, "you don't need to see my ID, but I can tell you my name and address" I'd politely tell them that I needed some proof of their ID. If the gun later turns out to be stolen, I can't tell the ATF that a guy verbally gave me his contact info and that is what I put in the bound book. That's pretty much what a return address on a package is. In that case, someone would b lying to hide their identity so that the gun could not be traced back to them. This is probably rare.

What is very common is that packages come in with any of the following return addresses:

B. Smith
1234 Any Street
Dallas TX xxxxxx

Any Company Shipping Dept
1234 Industrial Way
Omaha Nebraska xxxxx

In the first instance I don't know what first name to put to log the gun in. In the second I have absolutely no idea who sent the gun.

Including a copy of the driver license inside the box solves all of these issues.

Of course, someone could photoshop their license and send me a bad photocopy. If they are willing to go through that much trouble there isn't much I can do about it, but at least I can honestly claim I did my due diligence when I tell the ATF that I saw a DL or FFL for every acquisition.

 

[Bubba613]

here is no federal law stating such. Dealers, however, must log the gun in under the acquisition column in the bound book, and the name and address of the person who sent the gun must be logged in.

You may think "hey, isn't that information on the return address? Why on earth do they need a copy of my license?" For starters, the return address doesn't prove much.

Im having this issue right now. I sold an FN Police shotgun to a guy in NYS. His dealer will only accept with an FFL. Pointing out that an FFL is not required was a non-starter with him.
There is NO REQUIREMENT to prove where the gun came from, none whatsoever. The return address on a package is sufficient. The law states only that the name, address or FFL number of the source be recorded. Yet some dealers insist on having copies of FFLs to receive. It drives me nuts.

In this case the dealer has a big problem. The seller is not required to produce anything. Since there was no FFL, the receiving dealer cannot send the gun back to him legally. But we assume the gun stayed overnight in the dealer's shop. Therefore he had, by law, to log it in his books. How did he log it in? He must have used the return address. Therefore there is no bar whatsoever to his transferring it to the buyer. I would suggest the buyer contact the local ATF office and complain the dealer is unlawfully holding his gun.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Including a copy of the driver license inside the box solves all of these issues.

Receiving a copy of A driver's license inside the box solves no issue at all. I am a 44 year old white male officer in the US Navy. I could send you the driver's license of an 85 year old black woman and you wouldn't know the difference.

 

[docnyt]

Receiving a copy of A driver's license inside the box solves no issue at all. I am a 44 year old white male officer in the US Navy. I could send you the driver's license of an 85 year old black woman and you wouldn't know the difference.

Ah but you open up a different can of worms with impersonation, and falsification of documents on a firearms transfer.

 

[Bubba613]

I could send you the driver's license of an 85 year old black woman and you wouldn't know the difference.

That's true. How much access do you have to 85 year old black women's driver's licenses? What would be the purpose in doing such a thing? ANd what liability would accrue to the dealer for logging it in that way in good faith?

 

[waterhouse]

Receiving a copy of A driver's license inside the box solves no issue at all. I am a 44 year old white male officer in the US Navy. I could send you the driver's license of an 85 year old black woman and you wouldn't know the difference.

As mentioned, if you want to play those games there is nothing a dealer can do about it. When the ATF does an inspection, they ask questions like "how do you know where the gun came from?" In fact, I unpacked a box right in front of the ATF the last time they were here, and they said "is that from another dealer?" I said no, and held up the photocopy of the driver license in the box. Can I stop a seller from sending a fake driver license, or a real one that belong to someone else? No. Can I truthfully tell the ATF that I require ID before accepting a gun, which gets them to leave me alone (which is really what I care about). Yes, I can, and I do.

Im having this issue right now. I sold an FN Police shotgun to a guy in NYS. His dealer will only accept with an FFL. Pointing out that an FFL is not required was a non-starter with him.
There is NO REQUIREMENT to prove where the gun came from, none whatsoever. The return address on a package is sufficient. The law states only that the name, address or FFL number of the source be recorded.

While I don't believe "proof" is required, if the law states that the name and address of the source must be recorded, how do you know that the return address is sufficient? I'm not being facetious. I've been told by ATF inspectors to require some form of ID. It would save me a lot of time if you can point me to a court case or document stating that return addresses are a sufficient means of identifying a seller.

 

[Bubba613]

While I don't believe "proof" is required, if the law states that the name and address of the source must be recorded, how do you know that the return address is sufficient? I'm not being facetious. I've been told by ATF inspectors to require some form of ID. It would save me a lot of time if you can point me to a court case or document stating that return addresses are a sufficient means of identifying a seller.

The reg states that the dealer must record the name and address or FFL number of the source of the firearm. Thus it is incumbent on the inspector to provide a source that requires verifying that information.

 

[EOD Guy]

If dealer doesn't get signed DL he will be forced to return it to sender.

If the shipper was unlicensed, the dealer cannot return the firearm to him with getting a completed 4473.

A lot of people forget, or don't know about this, when ragging on dealers for not accepting shipments from unlicensed individuals.

 

[dogtown tom]

I require the shipper to include a copy of their FFL (or drivers license if not a dealer) with any firearm shipment.

I know there is no Federal law that requires either of those.........but those are MY REQUIREMENTS. Fail to honor MY REQUIREMENTS and the gun doesn't get transferred. 99% of dealers and individuals follow that request. The 1% that "forgot" to include ID.........do so when I remind them of my requirement.

I include a copy of my FFL with firearms that I ship out as a professional courtesy to the receiving dealer. I know he needs my information and an FFL copy is not that much trouble.

It never ceases to amaze me when I get a shipment with nothing but the gun inside.
-No FFL
-No drivers license
-No note, receipt or invoice indicating who bought or sold the gun.
-no phone number
And the return address is "MailItUSA" 1234 First St. Earth, Texas
Anyone who fails to put shipping info INSIDE the box runs the risk of that box getting sent to the dead letter depot. Labels get mangled or torn off and how is UPS/FedEx/USPS going to figure out where it goes?

Last week I received a gun WITH FFL.......but nothing to tell me who the gun was for. Tracked down the FFL's phone number, called him and he had no idea either. Seems he just boxed it up and shipped it for "some guy who comes in his store a lot".:banghead:

It isn't a power trip by the dealer to require ID with the firearms shipment....it's sound business practice.

 

[mbogo]

I know there is no Federal law that requires either of those.........but those are MY REQUIREMENTS. Fail to honor MY REQUIREMENTS and the gun doesn't get transferred. 99% of dealers and individuals follow that request. The 1% that "forgot" to include ID.........do so when I remind them of my requirement.

So what do you do with guns you receive without a drivers license or FFL included?

By BATFE regulation and common law, you are not allowed to keep them, and by your own rules, you refuse to transfer them to the buyers. and can't return them without DL or FFLs.

mbogo

 

[Bubba613]

So what do you do with guns you receive without a drivers license or FFL included?

By BATFE regulation and common law, you are not allowed to keep them, and by your own rules, you refuse to transfer them to the buyers. and can't return them without DL or FFLs.

Excellent question.
Even more: By federal law the dealer must log the gun if it stays overnight in his shop. How is the gun then logged in? But it must be.
Ergo there is nothing preventing Dogtown Tom or any other dealer from transferring the gun to the recipient.
I have stopped including an ffl with my sales because they are easily photoshopped. I include my business card with FFL number on it. This can be verified with FFLEZCheck. The last dealer demanded my ffl, which I refused. He threatened to tell the ATF on me. I am still waiting for any repercussion.

 

[dogtown tom]

mbogo

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
I know there is no Federal law that requires either of those.........but those are MY REQUIREMENTS. Fail to honor MY REQUIREMENTS and the gun doesn't get transferred. 99% of dealers and individuals follow that request. The 1% that "forgot" to include ID.........do so when I remind them of my requirement.

So what do you do with guns you receive without a drivers license or FFL included?

By BATFE regulation and common law, you are not allowed to keep them, and by your own rules, you refuse to transfer them to the buyers. and can't return them without DL or FFLs.

mbogo

As I posted above, the 1% that "forgot" to include their FFL or drivers license along with the firearm did so once reminded of my requirement.

What will I do if the shipper absolutely refuses? I'll take it to ATF and let them handle the transfer.

Bubba613 I have stopped including an ffl with my sales because they are easily photoshopped. I include my business card with FFL number on it. This can be verified with FFLEZCheck. The last dealer demanded my ffl, which I refused. He threatened to tell the ATF on me. I am still waiting for any repercussion.

What makes you think you are any more secure? Anyone who is going to photoshop your license can do so without your FFL...all I need is your information that I can get directly from the ATF website. Do you think the receiving dealer will prefer to photoshop your FFL rather than the one he already has?

It is the responsibility of the shipper to verify the validity of the receiving dealers license. Anyone who ships without verifying the receiving dealers FFL through the ATF ezCheck is an idiot. Any dealer who refuses to include his FFL along with the firearm is just exhibiting unfounded paranoia.

Bubba, do you tell the dealers who ship firearms to you that you do not require a copy of THEIR license? It works both ways.

 

[docnyt]

This has turned into an interesting discussion thanks to contributions from our FFL members.

So essentially the carbine in the OP's situation is in limbo unless the dealer relents and takes down the sender's info from the packaging or from the buyer. After all, the buyer should have the seller's information if he sent payment. Will it help if the receiving dealer and the transferee (the OP) review the hopefully positive feedback from the auction site?

 

[snubbies]

FFL tto FFL

I believe mention was made that there is no rerquirement for one FFL to furnish a copy of his license to the receiving FFl prior to the completion of the transaction. How do you read 27 CFR part 478.94???

 

[Bubba613]

It is the responsibility of the shipper to verify the validity of the receiving dealers license. Anyone who ships without verifying the receiving dealers FFL through the ATF ezCheck is an idiot. Any dealer who refuses to include his FFL along with the firearm is just exhibiting unfounded paranoia.

Bubba, do you tell the dealers who ship firearms to you that you do not require a copy of THEIR license? It works both ways.

While i always verify the info on FFLEZCheck before sending a gun, I note there is no requirement to do so.
It is not "unfounded paranoia" when it has in fact happened that people take FFLs and photoshop them. While the receiving dealer won't, he has employees, relatives, etc etc who might and have.
And the argument 'it works both ways" comes from the schoolyard, not from any logical reason. If it isn't required, it isn't required.

I believe mention was made that there is no rerquirement for one FFL to furnish a copy of his license to the receiving FFl prior to the completion of the transaction. How do you read 27 CFR part 478.94???

How is it relevant? How do you read it?

 

[snubbies]

?????

Rhetorical Question????

 

[MtnCreek]

You have gotten yourself in a tight spot. You didn't do your part to insure the transaction would work. That said, if the seller will not return your messages and the FFL will not complete the transaction, then you may want to get AFT involved. If you handle it right and discuss what you're doing with your FFL, then the AFT officer could probably help. Try to understand that your FFL justs want to cover his but and the $25, $50 or whatever you're paying him is not worth his FFL. Also, I really dought he would send to another FFL so they could complete the transaction; that would do nothing to help him.
Good luck!

 

[Jim K]

An FFL dealer has to record the source of any firearm he takes in, either for stock or as a transfer. If the transferor (sender) has an FFL, that information is entered. If the sender doesn't have an FFL, then there must be some type of official ID, usually a drivers license. Under federal law, anyone can ship a firearm TO an FFL dealer or, if it is a C&R item, to the holder of a collectors FFL.

I don't know about NY state law, but federal law does not require that the sender be a dealer or have any license.

As a general statement, this is the sort of thing that makes me leery of buying "on the net"; if there is a problem, the seller can just disappear and leave the buyer out the item and the money.

If you have the seller's name and address, send a registered letter, return receipt required, and request that he send the required information. On your end, make sure of the law and don't take any BS from the dealer.

I will say that it is a good idea to patronize a dealer and buy stuff from him; then when you want to get something shipped in he is going to work with you. I have seen folks the dealer has never seen before strut into a shop and practically demand he send his FFL to some guy he never heard of, for some gun that the dealer has on his shelf for less money. No wonder some dealers don't want to deal with the "order on the net" guys.

Jim

 

[waterhouse]

Bubba, do you take any incoming transfers, or are you on file with any distributors? Do you send any of those dealers a copy of your license?

 

[Bubba613]

Bubba, do you take any incoming transfers, or are you on file with any distributors? Do you send any of those dealers a copy of your license?

That of course is a requirement, unlike the actual subject of discussion.
Or is the distinction between "transferor" and "transferee" lost?

 

[waterhouse]

No, it isn't lost, I was just curious if you were concerned about those people photoshopping your license.

 

[Bubba613]

If I did, what choice would I have?

 

[waterhouse]

I was hoping you had some solution to the photoshop problem.

I used to be worried about the photoshop thing too, until someone showed me how easy it was to find a picture of an FFL on google image search and plug whatever data they want into it. At that point it seemed to not matter whether someone started with my license or someone else's, since they can make it say anything they want in the end.

I figured since you were worried about it to the point of not sending it even when requested you may have a solution that would prevent it from being photoshopped when sending it was required. I guess the fewer copies there are floating around the better though, at some level, and as you mentioned it isn't required when sending a gun.

 

[snubbies]

Isn't required??

Please site the law that says it is not required when selling or buying a gun as a dealer or when exerciising a transfer as a dealer

 

[Bubba613]

Please site the law

The laws are sited in the 1968 GCA and the code of federal regulations.