NY Times Gun disinformation! (not like you didn't expect that!)

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Bridger

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I hope I'm posting this to the right spot, if I should have posted this to Legal and Political instead, no problem if a mod moves it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/23/national/23gun.html?oref=login

The rifle that killed five Wisconsin hunters and wounded three more on Sunday was an SKS 7.62-millimeter semiautomatic assault weapon not normally used in hunting animals.

"This is not a gun you go deer hunting with," said Lawrence Keane, senior vice president and general counsel of the National Shooting Sports Foundation, the gun industry trade association.

The reason the SKS is not used by hunters, Mr. Keane said, is that it is designed for combat soldiers and is therefore underpowered for killing an animal like a deer with a single shot, the goal of good hunters.

"The ethics of hunting are you don't want the animal to suffer needlessly," Mr. Keane said.

Mr. Keane said he suspected that the man accused of the Wisconsin killings was not a trained hunter, since with the SKS he was carrying, he would have had to shoot a deer several times to kill it.

The SKS is a precursor of the AK-47 assault rifle. Though it has a longer barrel, it otherwise looks much like the AK-47. It has become popular in the United States among gun collectors, target shooters and some criminals, because it sells for less than $200, or more than $100 less than an AK-47, said Kristen Rand, legislative director of the Violence Policy Center, a gun control group.

By executive order, President Bill Clinton barred the importing of Chinese- and Russian-made SKS rifles. But the Bush administration, Ms. Rand said, has specifically authorized the importing of SKS's from Yugoslavia and Albania.

It is not known where the SKS used in the Wisconsin shootings was manufactured.

Hmm, so it looks like this is being used to gear up for more gun control efforts. We can't be complacent, I already wrote a letter to the NY times about this.

Isn't the 7.62x39 cartridge comparable ballistically to the 30-30? I myself had considered using my Yugo for my first deer hunt this year since I have some soft points and few have said it would be "underpowered"!

And of course, there is the attempt to call it an "assualt weapon" even though Federal law never recognized the rifle as such.

But I guess what else can we expect from the NY Times?
 
None of the propaganda from the New Dork Slimes surprises me any more these days. It was nice of them to mention that the SKS rifles in factory configuration were not considered 'assault weapons' under the 1994 ban. [/sarcasm off]
 
Not to mention the SKS is the single most popular cheap hunting rifle for hogs and deer here in Texas that I've seen.

Underpowered? yeah. Sure.

Anybody from the NSSF doesn't know squat about either hunting or rifles I'm betting. Probably an IPSC shooter.
 
Actually, the SKS is about the only 'assault rifle' that'd commonly be seen in deer hunting.

I think the NSSF might need to get a new lawyer. At least one smart enough not to give the NY Times dumb quotes.
 
>> This is not a gun you go deer hunting with," said Lawrence Keane, senior vice president and general counsel of the National Shooting Sports Foundation, the gun industry trade association. <<

With friends like this we don’t need enemies ...

I know a number of people that hunt with SKS rifles - sometimes with the magazine blocked to hold 5 rounds if this is required by hunting regulations.

It may be important to note that Mr. Keane works for the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF) which is a firearms industry advocacy organization dominated by domestic gun manufacturers. They have no liking for the competition surplus military firearms gives them. Their objection to low-cost surplus guns goes back to at least 1968. :mad:

The anti-gun folks will love this. It’s called “divide and conquer.†:cuss:
 
Yeah, and Feinstein wants to take away your guns and gun rights..

This is not news.. it's just barf material, same as always :barf: :barf: :barf:
 
The NYT is anti-gun, anti-liberty, anti-America, anti-Jewish and largely irrelevant.
 
Underpowered for killing animals - but also the no.1 cop-killer? And a high-powered assault rifle? Seems the SKS has a bit of an identity crisis going on.

I don't usually wade in on stuff like this but...I know more than that reporter.

It's Mr Keane of the National Shooting Sports Foundation you want to be emailing though.
 
I conceived and then ran NSSF's Media Education Program for more than four years (and am, in fact, still minimally involved with the program). One of the specific--successful--goals of that program was to position NSSF as the authority on firearms issues for the national media.

However, in the last 18 months, NSSF has seen a significant turnover of personnel. I'm no longer directly involved with NSSF as a consultant or an advisor. Media expert Paul Erhardt left to take a job as marketing director for SIGARMS. Program director Scott Moore recently left the organization. The remaining media specialist, Gary Mehalik (formerly of Taurus and extremely knowledgeable), is handling a huge caseload.

Larry Keane is a fine attorney--he was lead strategist on the city lawsuits, and every one of us owe him a debt of gratitude for his and NSSF's spectacular successes. Larry knows a lot about guns, but perhaps not in the same way as those of us in the field on a daily basis.

I think what we're looking at is a miscommunication between expert and spokesperson. For example, I suspect that Ruger, a very active Heritage Fund member, does not want to see the 7.62 X 39 cartridge classed as inadequate for hunting deer-sized game, since their website states that the Mini-30 in 7.62 "has proven itself as the ideal autoloader for deer-sized game at medium ranges."

While I'm not a big fan of the SKS (I'm a pissy gunwriter, and I've found the SKS to have the ergonomics of a mop handle duct-taped to a guitar), it's a standard-issue deer hunting rifle in much of the South--my father has used his SKS deer hunting in Tennessee. It's cheap, accurate at medium distances, reliable as dirt, *not* classified as an "assault weapon" by any standards, has tons of relatively inexpensive ammo available and can be upgraded by any number of aftermarket accessories. I'd rather have a 7.62 X 39 than, say, a .243 any day of the week.

If you contact NSSF, remember they're on our side!

mb
 
My email to NSSF

I just sent the following email to NSSF. I hope they don't like the fact that Lawence Keane is now associated with VPC.
---------------------------------------------------------------
I was very disappointed in Lawrence Keane's NYT interview. Factually, he was wrong in his statement that the SKS is underpowered for hunting deer. The 7.62x39 cartridge is equivalent to the 30-30 Winchester that has taken deer for over a century. Hunters can and do take deer with the both cartridges. 7.62x39 loads have been developed which are fine for deer hunting. Deer are not thick skinned.

The hunter in Wisconsin may have been using surplus ammo, but the fact is that the interview by NSSF gave ammunition to the arguments of gun control groups. While I am not a fan of the SKS, AK-47 or 7.62x39, the interview only served to feed the anti-gun argument that allowing the 1994 Assault Weapon Ban to sunset was wrong. Note that another person interviewed for the same NYT article was Kristen Rand, legislative director of the Violence Policy Center, a gun control group.

Considering Lawrence Keane's words and association with the Violence Policy Center, my question now is whether the National Shooting Sports Foundation, the gun industry trade association, is in fact anti-2nd Amendment. Do you only advocate "politically correct" firearms? Their goal is divide and conquer, and your organization took the anti-gun side against the "offending" SKS and aided those who want sporting purpose as a litmus test for firearms. The 2nd Amendment is not about deer or duck hunting. Hunting is not a right.

Trust me, once the VPC and their ilk are finished banning firearms that you don't approve for hunting, they'll come after the rest. My Remington 700 rifles are great for hunting deer, but they wouldn't be safe from anti-gun, anti-hunting organizations.

Thanks for listening.
 
I would suggest that anyone contacting Mr. Keane do so in a polite (but firm) manner. Don't go off half-cocked (pun intended) and accuse him of being anti-gun or anything else so foolish. But rather tell him how his comments came across as anti-gun and in fact seem to support the anti-gun agenda of the NYT. Remind him that ALL firearms owners have to stick together and resist any move by the media and other to demonize any one gun for their own political purposes.

Just don't be the proto-typical angry "bubba" that threatens or yells.
 
Actually, I wanted them to realize that that interview was damaging and served the VPC divide and conquer agenda. In Marxist terms, he was a useful idiot. Why on Earth would he even agree to a NYT interview, he knows their track record. Some folks just like to see their name in print. He is a lawyer after all.
 
[Preaching to the choir]
Within the last two years or so, it seems like one of the major agendas that the anti-rights crowd has been pushing is the demonization of the SKS rifle.

So far as I can tell, this really tips their hand to the fact that there is no apeasement with these people. Had the 1994 AWB been renewed, this is exactly where they would be pushing. Happily the ban was allowed to die, and Kristen Rand, Tom Diaz and others of their ilk are now confronted with fighting a battle on two fronts.
[/Preaching to the choir]
 
The rifle that killed five Wisconsin hunters and wounded three more on Sunday was an SKS 7.62-millimeter semiautomatic assault weapon not normally used in hunting animals.
DAMN those rifles. Just running loose, looking to kill and wound people indiscriminately. They must be stopped.

And please define "normal." Hair dryers aren't "normally" used to degrease rifle stocks, but I daresay a lot of us have used them that way. So...?

"This is not a gun you go deer hunting with," said Lawrence Keane,
No, this is not a gun YOU go deer hunting with. Do you even hunt, Mr. Keane? (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that NYT edited out anything remotely intelligent or helpful you might have said.)

senior vice president and general counsel of the National Shooting Sports Foundation, the gun industry trade association.
OK, NOW we're balanced, right? We've quoted someone on the "pro" side of the issue; therefore we now have carte blanche on the "con" side. Ramming speed!

The reason the SKS is not used by hunters, Mr. Keane said, is that it is designed for combat soldiers and is therefore underpowered for killing an animal like a deer with a single shot, the goal of good hunters.
Because we want to have to use many, many shots to kill humans in combat. And I think one-shot kills are the goal of ALL hunters, not just "good" ones.

"The ethics of hunting are you don't want the animal to suffer needlessly," Mr. Keane said.
Enemy combatants are another story altogether, I guess.

Mr. Keane said he suspected that the man accused of the Wisconsin killings was not a trained hunter, since with the SKS he was carrying, he would have had to shoot a deer several times to kill it.
Speculation and spectacular ignorance. "If I don't know it, it must not be true." And thank God they don't mention the suspect's name; otherwise we'd assume he is of minority descent.

The best part: this untrained hunter, armed with an SKS that would require "several" shots to kill a deer, nevertheless managed to kill five people and wound three others (and if I'm not mistaken, another died last night).

The SKS is a precursor of the AK-47 assault rifle. Though it has a longer barrel, it otherwise looks much like the AK-47. It has become popular in the United States among gun collectors, target shooters and some criminals,
Yes, let's not forget the obligatory "criminals" reference, facts be damned.

because it sells for less than $200, or more than $100 less than an AK-47,
And we all know how cost-conscious those criminals are, don't we? Always checking the papers for the big sales...

said Kristen Rand, legislative director of the Violence Policy Center, a gun control group.
"A gun control group." —The very definition of "understatement." Oh, a "gun control group." How reasonable. How sensible. Not "a group dedicated to a total ban on all weapons not held by the police, military or UN"? Of course not.

By executive order, President Bill Clinton barred the importing of Chinese- and Russian-made SKS rifles.
Our hero! Ruling the land with common sense and restraint, using his power of fiat (the famous "stroke of a pen, law of the land") only for good.

But the Bush administration, Ms. Rand said, has specifically authorized the importing of SKS's from Yugoslavia and Albania.
Therefore, it's obviously Bush's fault. More blood on his hands, the murderous Nazi bastard.

It is not known where the SKS used in the Wisconsin shootings was manufactured.
Uhh...so?

Sheesh.
 
The rifle that killed five Wisconsin hunters and wounded three more on Sunday was...

Any article that starts with an outright lie isn't worth reading. The rifle didn't kill anyone. The criminal did.

You can always count on the presstitutes of the New York Times to trot out all the usual leftist extremist lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, and more lies.
 
Well the smoke has cleared a bit and we now know that the rifle used was not an SKS but was a Saiga 7.62x39 (the sn has been released in the police report). Damn, now the gun grabbers need to go after a rifle specifically designed for "sporting purposes".

We also know that the rifle is fairly irrelevant to the outcome. Vang has confessed that he chased down and shot some of the victims in the back. Forensic evidence will fill in the blanks, but byand large his own testimony will convict him if it stands up in court.
 
Don't worry Riverdog, I'm sure the anti-gun forces will find some way to demonize the Saiga and SKS still.

Just curious, where did you see it was a Saiga?
 
This is not a gun you go deer hunting with

Well, it's probably not the gun that a senior vice president and general counsel would go hunting with. That would be at the very least a Remington 700 BDL, polished to a high gloss by the hunter's butler, and kept close to the tea table in the hunter's blind.

For the rest of us slobs, it's an ok gun, good inside 100 yards.

Regards.
 
Bridger, there are other threads running, one of which has links to the police report where the rifle is detailed down to serial number. Another postor here checked and found the sn was consistent with Saiga.
 
Quote:
said Kristen Rand, legislative director of the Violence Policy Center, a gun control group.


"A gun control group." —The very definition of "understatement." Oh, a "gun control group." How reasonable. How sensible. Not "a group dedicated to a total ban on all weapons not held by the police, military or UN"? Of course not.

Hey, at least they didn't call the VPC a "gun safety organization" :rolleyes:
 
my response to NSSF

From the New York Times:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The rifle that killed five Wisconsin hunters and wounded three more on Sunday was an SKS 7.62-millimeter semiautomatic assault weapon not normally used in hunting animals.

"This is not a gun you go deer hunting with," said Lawrence Keane, senior vice president and general counsel of the National Shooting Sports Foundation, the gun industry trade association.

The reason the SKS is not used by hunters, Mr. Keane said, is that it is designed for combat soldiers and is therefore underpowered for killing an animal like a deer with a single shot, the goal of good hunters.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please tell Mr. Keane, this is not the kind of anti-gun propaganda we want to be promoting.

7.62 x 39 is a comparable power cartridge to .30-30. At most realistic ranges, it is perfectly adequate for deer hunting and is often used for such. It is also a popular hog hunting round.

And where does he get off calling the SKS an "assault weapon?" "Assault weapon" is a propaganda term, invented by Dianne Feinstein, Chuck Schumer, Ted Kennedy, and the rest of the gun-ban crowd. Even by the arbitrary standards of the so-called "assault weapons ban" recently expired, the SKS did not qualify as an "assault weapon."

Thumbs down to Mr. Keane, for playing into the anti-gun propaganda machine. This is just the kind of inflammatory rhetoric used by the gun ban crowd to exploit a crime and a tragedy to advance their anti-freedom agenda.

Shame on you, Mr. Keane, for collaborating with them.
 
It's ALL about money.

Very few NSSF members make rifles in 7.62x39 and ALL of them hate their foreign competition.

The 1968 federal Gun Control Act begain as an effort by Smith & Wesson and Colt to "lock out" their cheaper foreign competition (especially surplus military-style guns). That's why Senator Dodd of Connecticut carried the bill. It got away from the gun manufacturers' control and so we all got screwed by the Democrats.

This is an industry that never learns a thing.

And, so, I just keep buying foreign, military-style surplus firearms. Every time I do so, I deny the NSSF fools a sale. And I get a tough, reliable, inexpensive firearm. And cheap ammo too.
 
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