carp killer
Member
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2003
- Messages
- 340
Don't ya just hate "politically correct" gun dealers.
They are in a tree and are sawing off the branch they are sitting on.
Put this idiot out of business.
SKS powerful assault rifle!!!!
- Thread starter Gixerman1000
- Start date
- Status
Don't ya just hate "politically correct" gun dealers.
They are in a tree and are sawing off the branch they are sitting on.
Put this idiot out of business.
You know Cecil Lee could have said somthing very diffecnt and the reporters twisted what he said into something else. He might have said "a lot of poor hunters buy these, but rich ones want a Rem 700..." or "people buy these thing for plinking but they are not tack drivers..."
Always be careful about what you say to reporters. They will "quote" you on somthing when you were actully saying somthing diffencet. The best thing you can say to a reporter is "no commet"
-Bill
shep854
Member
Well said, Whm1974, well said.
BluesBear
member
When smokless gunpowder burns the gases and pressures released propel the bullet through the barrel. So in effect aren't ALL firearms "gas powered"?
It's amazes me the silly things stupid people will say just to be seen on television.
And that's why I try to avoid absolutes. Words like "bullet-proof vest".
There is no such thing and it's doubtful if there ever will be.
It's amazes me the silly things stupid people will say just to be seen on television.
And that's why I try to avoid absolutes. Words like "bullet-proof vest".
There is no such thing and it's doubtful if there ever will be.
mfree
Member
Hrmm... a new statistic to place alongside fps and grain and ft-lbs?
IOPB.... Inches of Phone Book. maybe even IOPBW and IOPBD for wet and dry?
IOPB.... Inches of Phone Book. maybe even IOPBW and IOPBD for wet and dry?
another okie
Member
Well, I mean, it is true that the SKS is semi-auto, formerly (and occasionally even now) a military weapon, and can hold up to ten rounds. The phrase "assault weapon" has become pretty meaningless, but if you showed an SKS to 100 people on the street 95 would say it was an assault weapon. So the reporter believes he or she is communicating something about the rifle. The gas powered thing is stupid, but merely shows the writer didn't know much about rifles. He probably was told something about the self-loading mechanism and misunderstood.
It's not so much what the article says, but the tone. Tone is much harder to rebut or refute. The gun dealer quoted does say people use it for hunting; he just implies that not very many do. The tone is very negative, which is a political attitude inapproprate for a news article, but it would be hard to say there are a lot of facts wrong in the article.
The average person has no comprehension of caliber, velocity, bullet weight, and so on, which is what we think of as the factors that go into power. Instead they confuse it with rate of fire.
We need to help explain these things, not just start ranting.
"The round the SKS fires is about the same as the old .30-.30 lever actions that lots of folks use to hunt deer."
"The SKS is not fully automatic - you have to pull the trigger each time you want to fire. The assault weapons ban has nothing to do with fully automatic weapons, which have been regulated and registered since 1934."
I think one reason why it's so frustrating to deal with this "assault weapons" mantra is that the what the AWB does is so minor in some ways that people find it hard to believe Congress would pass such a law. It's basically about appearances, and when you explain that to people it just doesn't make sense to them, so they assume it's about machine guns.
It's not so much what the article says, but the tone. Tone is much harder to rebut or refute. The gun dealer quoted does say people use it for hunting; he just implies that not very many do. The tone is very negative, which is a political attitude inapproprate for a news article, but it would be hard to say there are a lot of facts wrong in the article.
The average person has no comprehension of caliber, velocity, bullet weight, and so on, which is what we think of as the factors that go into power. Instead they confuse it with rate of fire.
We need to help explain these things, not just start ranting.
"The round the SKS fires is about the same as the old .30-.30 lever actions that lots of folks use to hunt deer."
"The SKS is not fully automatic - you have to pull the trigger each time you want to fire. The assault weapons ban has nothing to do with fully automatic weapons, which have been regulated and registered since 1934."
I think one reason why it's so frustrating to deal with this "assault weapons" mantra is that the what the AWB does is so minor in some ways that people find it hard to believe Congress would pass such a law. It's basically about appearances, and when you explain that to people it just doesn't make sense to them, so they assume it's about machine guns.
Waitone
Member
"Gas powered" is the latest word game of anti-2's. Just like hunting ammo becomes armor penetrating ammo, so gas powered will be used to paint any semi-auto shoulder arm as an assault weapon. Anti's are introducing new terms into which they can inject whatever content they desire. Pretty soon the debate will be, "Well, how does that rifle autoload the next round?" Answer: it uses gas. "See, See. it is an assault weapon."
Meanwhile pro-2's are getting their feet caught up in our underwear making fun of techno-fobes who are spoon fed terms to use in their articles.
Meanwhile pro-2's are getting their feet caught up in our underwear making fun of techno-fobes who are spoon fed terms to use in their articles.
Another Okie has a really good point.
We get just as PC as any other group when it comes to our language, sometimes laughably. The SKS is'nt high powered? Maybe not when compared to a .300 WinMag, but these things are largely relative. It is high-powered enough to punch police armor with relative ease. The SKS is'nt an assault rifle? Tell that to any Korea vets who faced a human wave. To pretend that SKSs, AKs, ARs, and the like our anything other than designed for punching holes in people is disengenuous at best.
Sure they can be used for target shooting, hunting, plinking and anything else, and we have as much right to keep them as any other type of gun, even if for no other reason than the history they represent. But we are'nt kidding anybody, and we look shifty when trying to convince anybody that normal capacity mags make us better plinkers. We should have flash suppressors, normal cap mags and all the other goodies because there is no arguable reason not to.
I think having "Sporter" stamped on the side of my AR is one of the goofiest attempts at manipulation I have ever seen. When we take military pattern weapons and try to relate them to Uncle Bob's deer rifle or somebody's duck gun we accomplish nothing.
FWIW, all I own and shoot are military pattern weapons or weapons purpose built for defense. I do not hunt, or play gun games. I just get somewhat tired of what I see as our hypocrisy when it comes to these types of guns.
And is anybody suprised on the rare occasions that military pattern weapons are used in crimes? What better tool to choose? Not all criminals are morons. Given the choice between an SKS and a Winchester 94 which do you think they'll pick, especially at $199.00 off the rack at a local pawn shop?
We get just as PC as any other group when it comes to our language, sometimes laughably. The SKS is'nt high powered? Maybe not when compared to a .300 WinMag, but these things are largely relative. It is high-powered enough to punch police armor with relative ease. The SKS is'nt an assault rifle? Tell that to any Korea vets who faced a human wave. To pretend that SKSs, AKs, ARs, and the like our anything other than designed for punching holes in people is disengenuous at best.
Sure they can be used for target shooting, hunting, plinking and anything else, and we have as much right to keep them as any other type of gun, even if for no other reason than the history they represent. But we are'nt kidding anybody, and we look shifty when trying to convince anybody that normal capacity mags make us better plinkers. We should have flash suppressors, normal cap mags and all the other goodies because there is no arguable reason not to.
I think having "Sporter" stamped on the side of my AR is one of the goofiest attempts at manipulation I have ever seen. When we take military pattern weapons and try to relate them to Uncle Bob's deer rifle or somebody's duck gun we accomplish nothing.
FWIW, all I own and shoot are military pattern weapons or weapons purpose built for defense. I do not hunt, or play gun games. I just get somewhat tired of what I see as our hypocrisy when it comes to these types of guns.
And is anybody suprised on the rare occasions that military pattern weapons are used in crimes? What better tool to choose? Not all criminals are morons. Given the choice between an SKS and a Winchester 94 which do you think they'll pick, especially at $199.00 off the rack at a local pawn shop?
Warbow
Member
RileyMc wrote:
If it does start misbehaving, you can send it to me. I run a highy reputable vintage military rifle boarding house. The curriculum instills discipline and respect in each rifle. 100% of the graduates never misbehave on their own again.
Tuition is 1,000 rounds of the rifle's chambering per semester. All other supplies are provided by the boarding house. Visitations may be arranged, also.
If it does start misbehaving, you can send it to me. I run a highy reputable vintage military rifle boarding house. The curriculum instills discipline and respect in each rifle. 100% of the graduates never misbehave on their own again.
Tuition is 1,000 rounds of the rifle's chambering per semester. All other supplies are provided by the boarding house. Visitations may be arranged, also.
2nd Amendment
member
When we take military pattern weapons and try to relate them to Uncle Bob's deer rifle or somebody's duck gun we accomplish nothing.
OK, I honestly do understand your point, BUT, other than the cosmetic how is that AR in your hands different from Uncle Bob's deer rifle? other than likely being less powerful? It's a semi-auto that fires one shot at a time. It has more in common with that deer rifle than it does with its military cousin, since it will never see battle nor fire more than that one round at a time.
Also the SKS. It's a wood stocked semi-auto with a box mag. It happens to have seen service with a variety of militaries but beyond that it's little different from any other hunting arm except, again, being slightly less powerful. Point is the differences are real and we have little choice but to point them out in the most simplistic ways possible. As the media and the Graboids have learned, the Sound-Byte mentality of today demands it.
OK, I honestly do understand your point, BUT, other than the cosmetic how is that AR in your hands different from Uncle Bob's deer rifle? other than likely being less powerful? It's a semi-auto that fires one shot at a time. It has more in common with that deer rifle than it does with its military cousin, since it will never see battle nor fire more than that one round at a time.
Also the SKS. It's a wood stocked semi-auto with a box mag. It happens to have seen service with a variety of militaries but beyond that it's little different from any other hunting arm except, again, being slightly less powerful. Point is the differences are real and we have little choice but to point them out in the most simplistic ways possible. As the media and the Graboids have learned, the Sound-Byte mentality of today demands it.
"The SKS is a gas-powered, semi-automatic..."
Okay, where is the pull chord to start my rifle? Should I use two-cycle oil?
"Anyone could purchase it easily at many gun shops, according to Cecil Lee, manager of Aero Marine Outfitters in Trussville."
Anyone? Sure, if they pass the background check.
"Lee said that although a hunter might purchase the 9-pound gun for hunting, it's not the weapon of choice. "It's not normally a super-accurate gun," he said. "It would fall vaguely under the category of assault rifle." "
The truth is, the SKS is a pretty common hunting rifle. The SKS is probably used more often than a lot of higher priced bolt-action models.
It doesn't have to be SUPER-accurate to shoot a whitetail at 100-yards.
Vaguely? I thought is was a "powerful assult rifle" according to the headline.
"Lee's shop doesn't carry it because he doesn't consider it a sporting gun.
Not a sporting gun? My wife and I shot ours this weekend, and we weren't shooting at people. In the U.S., what percentage of bullets fired out of SKS rifles are NOT shot at people? I bet it's somewhere around 99.99999%. So if you're not shooting it at people, then what is it, other than sporting?
"At least two of the officers killed Thursday were wearing standard protective armor that would be unable to stop bullets from the SKS, but Lee said there are vests designed to stop such powerful blasts."
I'm curious! What cernterfire rifle cartridge would not penetrate their protective armor? Isn't the 7.62X39mm on the weaker end of the spectrum? But you'd get the impression from this article that the SKS is a remarkably powerful rifle.
"It would probably shoot through two phone books," Lee said. "It's a rifle I would hope I wouldn't have to face."
Really? Which rifle would he like to face?
"Phillip George, a K-9 patrolman with the Tarrant Police Department, said the vests most police officers wear wouldn't be able to fend off bullets powered by a rifle like the SKS. Tarrant police use Army-donated vests that hold two ceramic plates, but George said even those vests might not withstand a blast from an SKS."
This Phillip George feller needs to stick to subjects like dog food brands. He's an idiot about guns! What centerfire rifle cartridge does he think it would withstand?
"Reinforced vests are more effective against such rifles, but are much too heavy to wear for extended periods, George said. He added that they also wouldn't be useful in a tactical situation because they restrict movement.
"The whole vest itself is probably close to 40 pounds," he said about reinforced vests, adding that even standard vests are bulky at times."
Well, then, by all means, we must ban these powerful assult rifles for everybody at once. What other choice do we have? And of course, these drug dealer gang-bangers will comply with the law.
Okay, where is the pull chord to start my rifle? Should I use two-cycle oil?
"Anyone could purchase it easily at many gun shops, according to Cecil Lee, manager of Aero Marine Outfitters in Trussville."
Anyone? Sure, if they pass the background check.
"Lee said that although a hunter might purchase the 9-pound gun for hunting, it's not the weapon of choice. "It's not normally a super-accurate gun," he said. "It would fall vaguely under the category of assault rifle." "
The truth is, the SKS is a pretty common hunting rifle. The SKS is probably used more often than a lot of higher priced bolt-action models.
It doesn't have to be SUPER-accurate to shoot a whitetail at 100-yards.
Vaguely? I thought is was a "powerful assult rifle" according to the headline.
"Lee's shop doesn't carry it because he doesn't consider it a sporting gun.
Not a sporting gun? My wife and I shot ours this weekend, and we weren't shooting at people. In the U.S., what percentage of bullets fired out of SKS rifles are NOT shot at people? I bet it's somewhere around 99.99999%. So if you're not shooting it at people, then what is it, other than sporting?
"At least two of the officers killed Thursday were wearing standard protective armor that would be unable to stop bullets from the SKS, but Lee said there are vests designed to stop such powerful blasts."
I'm curious! What cernterfire rifle cartridge would not penetrate their protective armor? Isn't the 7.62X39mm on the weaker end of the spectrum? But you'd get the impression from this article that the SKS is a remarkably powerful rifle.
"It would probably shoot through two phone books," Lee said. "It's a rifle I would hope I wouldn't have to face."
Really? Which rifle would he like to face?
"Phillip George, a K-9 patrolman with the Tarrant Police Department, said the vests most police officers wear wouldn't be able to fend off bullets powered by a rifle like the SKS. Tarrant police use Army-donated vests that hold two ceramic plates, but George said even those vests might not withstand a blast from an SKS."
This Phillip George feller needs to stick to subjects like dog food brands. He's an idiot about guns! What centerfire rifle cartridge does he think it would withstand?
"Reinforced vests are more effective against such rifles, but are much too heavy to wear for extended periods, George said. He added that they also wouldn't be useful in a tactical situation because they restrict movement.
"The whole vest itself is probably close to 40 pounds," he said about reinforced vests, adding that even standard vests are bulky at times."
Well, then, by all means, we must ban these powerful assult rifles for everybody at once. What other choice do we have? And of course, these drug dealer gang-bangers will comply with the law.
Foreign Devil
Member
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2004
- Messages
- 507
The line between military pattern and sporting weapons is not clear. For many years sniper rifles were taken from the civilian market. "Ordinary" shotguns (technology a couple hundred years old, right?) are still formidible in combat, and you would still be well armed with a lever action 30-30 or something similar.
If you ask me the only pure "sporting" guns out there are those specialized match guns you see at olympic competititons and the like, and maybe some of the upper end shotguns.
If you ask me the only pure "sporting" guns out there are those specialized match guns you see at olympic competititons and the like, and maybe some of the upper end shotguns.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Assault Rifle
All rifles are assault rifles...by design and intent. A rifle is a tool
that is used for attack...For carrying the fight to the enemy.
In 1863 it was the Springfield and the Enfield and the superb Remington Zouave rifled musket. 10 years later, it was the 1873 Trapdoor Springfield.
21 years after that , it was the Winchester M-94...et cetera. The press uses the term to create sensationalism. It furthers their agenda and sells papers. Somebody should call Lee and inform him that his bolt-action
sporting rifles were assault rifles in the trenches of France in 1914 and on the Battaan Peninsula in 1941...The British used their bolt action "sporters" throughout the Second World War...as did the Germans and the Japanese.
Me? I'd much rather my antagonist be armed with an AK-47 than face
"Bubba" with his grandpappy's Thutty-Thutty, or a western Prarie Dog
hunter with his scoped Swift.
Speaking of Politically Correct-ness...There is a local indoor firing range
owned and operated by a man who doesn't allow "weapons" on the premises. Firearms only....
On the other hand...maybe I should delete this in case "they" are watching.
If they catch on, they'll be after our "Sporting Rifles" too...Wait! They already are!
Fight the good fight...
Tuner
All rifles are assault rifles...by design and intent. A rifle is a tool
that is used for attack...For carrying the fight to the enemy.
In 1863 it was the Springfield and the Enfield and the superb Remington Zouave rifled musket. 10 years later, it was the 1873 Trapdoor Springfield.
21 years after that , it was the Winchester M-94...et cetera. The press uses the term to create sensationalism. It furthers their agenda and sells papers. Somebody should call Lee and inform him that his bolt-action
sporting rifles were assault rifles in the trenches of France in 1914 and on the Battaan Peninsula in 1941...The British used their bolt action "sporters" throughout the Second World War...as did the Germans and the Japanese.
Me? I'd much rather my antagonist be armed with an AK-47 than face
"Bubba" with his grandpappy's Thutty-Thutty, or a western Prarie Dog
hunter with his scoped Swift.
Speaking of Politically Correct-ness...There is a local indoor firing range
owned and operated by a man who doesn't allow "weapons" on the premises. Firearms only....
On the other hand...maybe I should delete this in case "they" are watching.
If they catch on, they'll be after our "Sporting Rifles" too...Wait! They already are!
Fight the good fight...
Tuner
Of course I take the opposite view:
There are no such things as "assault" rifles - assault being a verb. All my black, pistol-gripped, gas operated, 30 rd magazine fed rifles are defensive rifles, and used for defensive purposes only.
Sometimes the best defense involves a dynamic offense, but "assault" is something a mugger does, not a warrior.
There are no such things as "assault" rifles - assault being a verb. All my black, pistol-gripped, gas operated, 30 rd magazine fed rifles are defensive rifles, and used for defensive purposes only.
Sometimes the best defense involves a dynamic offense, but "assault" is something a mugger does, not a warrior.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Point/Counterpoint
but "assault" is something a mugger does, not a warrior.
I see your point...but I've also seen a Marine rifle company maneuver, close with, and destroy an enemy emplacement. If that ain't an assault,
I dunno what is. Maybe "attack" would be more fitting...
SturmGewer. Storm Gun...as in "Storm the gates of hell, it seems"
"On this day, Allied forces launched an all-out assault on the beaches of
Normandy."
Semper Fi...
Tuner
but "assault" is something a mugger does, not a warrior.
I see your point...but I've also seen a Marine rifle company maneuver, close with, and destroy an enemy emplacement. If that ain't an assault,
I dunno what is. Maybe "attack" would be more fitting...
SturmGewer. Storm Gun...as in "Storm the gates of hell, it seems"
"On this day, Allied forces launched an all-out assault on the beaches of
Normandy."
Semper Fi...
Tuner
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
And .30-06's, and .308's, and all Winchester lever-actions (which were developed as military weapons, remember), and 9mm's, and .45's, and so on. Grandpa's hunting rifle, and his hunting ammunition, often was ORIGINALLY designed for use against soldiers, not animals.
This is true in the abstract, but pragmatically the argument can be useful in limited situations--such as when when debating with someone who is comfortable with people owning "hunting rifles" but not something as "powerful and lethal" as an SKS or an AK lookalike. You can point out that an SKS is less powerful and less lethal than the hunting weapon they believe people should be allowed to own.
I agree 100% that hunting has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the RKBA, and we gunnies who DON'T hunt are actually a substantial majority of gun owners (ballpark figures are ~80 million gun owners and only ~16 million licensed hunters).
The SKS is "high powered" like a 1987 Toyota Camy with a 2-liter 4-cylinder engine is "high powered." It is powerful enough to double the speed limit. It can accelerate to 60 mph faster than a 1930's race car. It has 110 horsepower, which is three or four times as much as you need to maintain 55 mph. And it can go fast enough to make any accident a nonsurvivable catastrophe. BUT, to refer to the 1987 Camry 4-cylinder as a "powerful car" would be very misleading.
The problem with describing an SKS as "high powered" is that such terms are ALWAYS interpreted relatively by the public at large; using the term implies to Joe Citizen that the rifle in question is more powerful than the average centerfire rifle, whereas the SKS is actually among the LEAST powerful of centerfire rifles.
The prohibitionists know that connotation is just as important as denotation in winning the public to their side. That's why they refer to a "blast" from an SKS instead of a "shot," because "blast" implies fearsome power.
True. But the term "assault rifle" does have a specific definition (selective-fire rifle chambered for intermediate-power cartridge). And since "assault weapon" is a pejorative term coined by the gun prohibitionist lobby, it doesn't help our side to adopt it, any more than adopting the term "cop-killer bullets" for FMJ rifle ammunition would.
O.F.Fascist
Member
Perhaps a better term for weapons such as the SKS and the M1 Garand and the like would be "battle rifle."
Clearly these rifles were used in battle, but in the end they are still just semi-automatic rifles.
We dont want people to get them confused with the evil "assault" word.
Clearly these rifles were used in battle, but in the end they are still just semi-automatic rifles.
We dont want people to get them confused with the evil "assault" word.
My main thesis is that it is spurious to downplay the martial origin of any firearm. Claiming that the SKS/AK, AR/Stoner, M1/M1A pattern rifles in our hands were designed to do anything other than kill people is coy. As offshoots (pardon the pun) of them, they have found far more peaceable uses, but when some shrill journalist claims that they are lethal death dealing machines of war our response should be "Yes, but only in the wrong hands. What's your point?" As pointed out, near all firearms are rooted in force and violence, but then so are the fireworks we'll watch on July 4th. We know that how the technology is used is the main issue anyway.
We complain about the lack of a bayonet lug on our ARs, then bend over backwards extolling its "sporting" virtues. Personally, I think the AR15 is the Kentucky Long Rifle of the modern United States and would like to see one over the fireplace of every condo, split level ranch and singlewide in the country. While it'll always be able to ward off the assaulting squirrels and rabbits, that's not what it was made for.
I think we could learn a lesson from our compatriots who collect military vehicles. I have yet to see them trying to claim that their tanks and APCs are "modified agricultural equipment." It's a tank, dammit, and while it could pull a gang of reel mowers around the yard, that is'nt what it does best.
IMHO, YMMV, and when that Marine Rifle Company is "assaulting" an objective they are in reality defending the United States.
We complain about the lack of a bayonet lug on our ARs, then bend over backwards extolling its "sporting" virtues. Personally, I think the AR15 is the Kentucky Long Rifle of the modern United States and would like to see one over the fireplace of every condo, split level ranch and singlewide in the country. While it'll always be able to ward off the assaulting squirrels and rabbits, that's not what it was made for.
I think we could learn a lesson from our compatriots who collect military vehicles. I have yet to see them trying to claim that their tanks and APCs are "modified agricultural equipment." It's a tank, dammit, and while it could pull a gang of reel mowers around the yard, that is'nt what it does best.
IMHO, YMMV, and when that Marine Rifle Company is "assaulting" an objective they are in reality defending the United States.
shep854
Member
In today's Birmingham News there's an editorial giving the full scoop on the SKS The editor goes into detail about the definition of "assault rifle", and how the SKS isn't. He mentions the great popularity of the rifle for recreational shooting, plinking and hunting. Regarding hunting, he makes the point that some hunters don't like it because it is not powerful enough.
He also describes a conversation with the local BATFE head, who told him that the SKS was no problem in the hands of law-abiding citizens.
He also describes a conversation with the local BATFE head, who told him that the SKS was no problem in the hands of law-abiding citizens.
KRAUTGUNNER
Member
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2002
- Messages
- 255
If a SKS is deemed a "powerful assault rifle", then what is an AR-10 chambered for the .300 WSM??? 
The Ultimate Killer Rifle? Good-Night-Forever-Gun?? Doomsday Device???
The Ultimate Killer Rifle? Good-Night-Forever-Gun?? Doomsday Device???
Waitone
Member
Send the writer of the article an attaboy or attagirl as appropriate. We hop up and down when they screw it up. Thank them for getting it right.
Harve Curry
Member
That guy Lee that owns the gunshop, if that is the way he thinks about the civil right we all call the 2nd Amendment he needs help.
I've had 4 SKS's:
one shot 2" groups,
three shot 1-1/4" groups with chinese ball ammo, all at 100 yards on paper, 3 shots, from a bench rest.
They shoot circles around a AK rifle. They have plenty of power for hunting deer size game.
I've had 4 SKS's:
one shot 2" groups,
three shot 1-1/4" groups with chinese ball ammo, all at 100 yards on paper, 3 shots, from a bench rest.
They shoot circles around a AK rifle. They have plenty of power for hunting deer size game.
greyhound
Member
Off topic, but THIS kind of honest reporting and general attitude is why I am SO GLAD to be moving from Maryland to Alabama.
Compare this to the Baltimore Sun and Washington Post's hysteria about AR-15 during the "DC Sniper" in October 2002.
Faster, please!
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