NYC arrests CCWing nurse from TN

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ttolhurst said:
Sure they did; you can't just stop reading at the Second Amendment. The Fifth Amendment provides:

Felons have received due process, and have forfeited various civil rights as a result of their conviction. This is not, and should not, be unconstitutional.
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So, you think that trumps the 2nd Amendment? I'm afraid that we are just going to have to agree to disagree then. The 2nd Amendment is a reaffirmation of a natural born right of all free men everywhere. It is not a privilege that the government is granting us. The Founding Fathers were concerned with the citizens being able to defend themselves from an overbearing federal government and there is no way that they would have provided for any condition where the government could take away a citizen's right to bear arms.

And if you really want to get picky about this, just look at what they considered federal crimes back then -- piracy, counterfeiting, and treason...

http://www.heritage.org/research/commentary/2010/09/the-constitution-and-crime

Kind of interesting that they would mention treason since they were all guilty of it with respect to their actions against Great Britain... :)
 
Loosedhorse said:
If they decline to prosecute, then every person they prosecute in the future (and even those like Burress, that they have already convicted) can appeal as not having been treated equally under law.
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NOT LEGAL ADVICE:

What? It's called prosecutorial discretion. Prosecutors choose not to prosecute crimes all the time. It is literally a daily occurence. That doesn't mean they can't prosecute a similar crime in the future.
 
I have no idea of the boundaries of prosecutorial discretion, but I would think that--if the "equal protection" clause of 14A means anything--it must not include decide not to prosecute based on who a person is. You perhaps believe that a prosecutor can prosecute an embezzler who was his opponent in a campaign, but decline to prosecute an embezzler who happens to be his brother? Or can decide to only prosecute Hispanic defendents? That type of discretion?

Or decide not to prosecute white, female, middle-class, nicely dressed nurses for illegally carrying a gun; and only prosecute poor minority males with hoodies and gang tats. Hey, I'm no attorney--maybe you're right, and that's how prosecutorial discretion is supposed to work.

I can understand prosecutorial discretion when an offense will be tough to prove, or a deal is on the table (take a plea for a lesser crime's 2 years rather than gamble an expensive trial for 15). But this is a simple possession crime. All that is needed is that is proof that she possessed it (police and witness testimony; probably video, too), and didn't have a permit (a clerk can so testify). She has no deal to offer.

There's also judicial discretion: the "Sullivan Act" is designed to give judges no leeway in sentencing--part of being "tough on gun crimes"--but a judge might still decide to place his finger on the scale. But it would be hard for any judge to exclude enough evidence in this case to prevent conviction.

There is, however, one legal mechanism to avoid prosecution: executive clemency. Would be a bold move, and not likely from Mr. Cuomo.
 
So, you think that trumps the 2nd Amendment?
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Well, yes. It requires that due process be followed before anyone is deprived of their liberties. That presupposes that people can be deprived of their liberties under certain circumstances defined by law and permissible by the constitution.

The 2nd Amendment is a reaffirmation of a natural born right of all free men everywhere. It is not a privilege that the government is granting us.
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As a matter of philosophy, sure. As a matter of law, you can bet your sweet bippy that the 2nd is all that stands between your guns and total prohibition. You can talk about natural rights until you're blue in the face; as a legal matter, natural rights are a wisp easily ignored by legislatures and courts. For the last half century or more, the 2nd Amendment itself has barely been recognized. Bleating about the natural rights of man wouldn't even have earned a chuckle.

And if you really want to get picky about this, just look at what they considered federal crimes back then -- piracy, counterfeiting, and treason...
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I don't know what federal crimes have to do with anything here. Perhaps you're referring to the proliferation of felony crimes. Yes, there are far too many crimes on the books, and far too many are felonies.

Personally, I don't believe persons convicted of most nonviolent crimes, felony or otherwise, should lose their gun rights, and that even those who have lost their gun rights for violent crimes should have the opportunity to regain them.

Let's not confuse the question of whether the right to keep and bear arms is absolute, applying to any and all without exception, with the question of whether too many exceptions have been made.
 
i'm finding it hard to have any sympathy for her; NYC has always been notoriously anti-gun, and it's well known. even if she wasn't familiar with NYC's laws, a quick Google check, or even looking at the reciprocity list that would probably be on the Attorney General's webpage, would have told her that taking a gun into NYC would be illegal. hell, a PA state constable was arrested, and had to go to court to fight the charges, after being arrested while in the performance of his duties in NYC. he won, by the way, as he was protected by LEOSA, a law NYC happens to ignore regularly.
 
i'm finding it hard to have any sympathy for her; NYC has always been notoriously anti-gun
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I hear you. On the other hand, not everyone who owns or carries a gun is as immersed in gun culture as a guy with nearly 1,000 posts on a gun forum is. I can readily imagine a person from a reasonably gun-friendly state like TN who buys a gun, gets a CCW and goes about her daily life in TN, perhaps carrying routinely. She doesn't subscribe to gun magazines, she doesn't visit gun web sites; she's just an ordinary citizen, coming from a culture where guns are ordinary and unremarkable.

Like any ordinary citizen, she probably doesn't think too hard about traffic laws when she drives out of state; she expects them to be substantially similar to those in her own state. And she naturally expects her driver's license to be honored in other states as well.

You and I know that CCW laws are a patchwork across the country, and that reciprocity was the exception until fairly recently. But what about Ms. Tennessee? If she's not plugged in to the legal side of the gun world, or the gun world at all, it's not completely unreasonable for her to believe that her TN carry license, like her driver's license, would be honored anywhere in the US. I'd go so far as to say that a reasonable person with no prior initiation into US gun law could never imagine what a horrific hodgepodge the law is; a reasonable but naive person would probably assume what Ms. Tennessee did.

Of course she should have researched the law. What's a shame is that she should have to know that in the first place.
 
It's sad, but you must know the law! She was told by Tn. that permit is only good in her state.
 
A big part of how a police state controls the population is that it counts on popular condemnation when a citizen breaks an unjust law.

You should have know better! will be little comfort when they have "lawfully" imprisoned you for thinking you have inalienable rights...
 
Could be an interesting test case to force reciprocity through the the full faith and credit clause.
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Her nursing license is not valid in NY either, why should her carry permit be valid?
 
Loosedhorse said:
I remember when Plaxico Burress was arrested, and some were calling for the NRA or SAF to back him for appeals. That was ridiculous.

But here we have a classic "sympathetic defendent": a nurse/medical student with a valid out-of-state CCW: a bona fide good guy, who is facing 3 1/2 years in prison. Because she asked where to store her gun.

The gun controllers in NYC are already running scared:If they try and convict her, she can appeal on 2A and 8A grounds, claiming that it is unusual to jail for 3 1/2 years a person with no criminal intent and in possession of a valid CCW issued by a sovereign state for a first-offense simple possession charge. And she has strong reason to appeal, as conviction will ruin her career(s) in medicine.

If they decline to prosecute, then every person they prosecute in the future (and even those like Burress, that they have already convicted) can appeal as not having been treated equally under law.

I wish she hadn't "volunteered" to be the perfect test case. But she has. We are foolish if we don't realize we've been dealt quite a good hand here.

Those of you who are NRA and SAF members: make sure you let them know you have a strong interest in this case, and so should they.
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It's a horrible test case because too many things confuse the issue, giving the courts lots of ways to avoid constitutional issues.
 
brickeyee said:
Her nursing license is not valid in NY either, why should her carry permit be valid?
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Selling medical services is not a basic human right. Self-defense and the attendant means are a basic human right.

She could provide nursing services to herself and her kids for free in New York without any license whatsoever. You are confusing the requirement for a license to sell health and safety services to others with the absolute human right to provide health and safety services to your immediate family.
 
The Tennesse nursing student stated she had overlooked the fact she had left the pistol in her purse until she noticed the "No handguns" sign and approached security to find out what she should do about it. So some of you think she deserves a felony record and 3.5 years minimum sentence.

...that permit is only good in her state...
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http://www.tn.gov/safety/handgun/reciprocity.shtml
Tennessee now recognizes a facially valid handgun permit, firearms permit, weapons permit, or a license issued by another state according to its terms, and will, therefore, authorize the holder of such out-of-state permit or license to carry a handgun only in the state of Tennessee.
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Tennessee has formal reciprocity agreements with:
•Alaska
•Arizona
•Arkansas
•Florida
•Georgia
•Kentucky
•Louisiana
•Michigan
•Mississippi
•New Hampshire
•North Carolina
•Ohio
•Pennsylvania
•South Carolina
•South Dakota
•Texas
•Virginia
•West Virginia
•Wyoming

The following states recognize Tennessee permits without a formal agreement:
•Alabama
•Colorado
•Delaware
•Idaho
•Indiana
•Iowa
•Kansas
•Minnesota
•Missouri
•Montana
•Nebraska
•Nevada
•New Mexico
•North Dakota
•Oklahoma
•Utah
•Vermont
•Washington

Do Not Recognize TN Permits (although TN does recognize theirs as valid in TN)
•California
•Connecticut
•Hawaii
•Illinois
•Maine
•Maryland
•Massachusetts
•New Jersey
•New York
•Oregon
•Rhode Island
•Wisconsin

MY not so humble opinion: PULL RECOGNITION OF NEW YORK CITY PERMITS IN TENNESSEE NOW! Criminalize a few of the expletive deleted elitists.
 
How would pulling New Yorks reciprocity in Tennessee hurt New York? It would only hurt New Yorkers travelling in TN. They don't make the laws.

BTW, I carry under Leosa and I'm still afraid to carry in NY.
 
It's a horrible test case
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Compared to what, exactly?

DC's law was struck down because it was extreme--the Supremes could "safely" declare DC's law unconstitutional without automatically threatening less severe laws. And they did.

Similarly, this law could be struck down because it is the most extreme in the country, and yet that nullification would not threaten less "unusual" laws.

And Heller was a sympathetic defendent, just as this nurse is. If this law is EVER going to be challenged, THIS IS THE CASE. I guess we can wait for a better one...

Or wait for the NYC law-makers to decide they were wrong, and cahnge it on their own. :rolleyes:
 
Once she is convicted of a felony, her nursing days are over ... anywhere.
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Sadly this is true. The Nursing board won't license a felon. I hope she gets out of this.
 
The tough and draconian gun laws in many jurisdictions are why I do my best to steer clear of any gun-related violation.

For me it is mostly an inconvenience, such as not being able to make stops on the way to the gun range to shoot my handgun. It also makes it very hard to get my handgun serviced.
 
New signs in NYC:

NO GUNS ALLOWED.

JIHADISTS FLYING AIRPLANES INTO BUILDINGS - OK

Signed: Bloomberg
 
Her criminal liability ended the moment she surrendered the weapon

The NYPD made a big mistake arresting her and any attorney worth his fee will have the charges dismissed. Pursuant to New York State Penal Law 265.20 (f) a person is not guilty of criminal possession of a weapon when he or she voluntarily surrenders said weapon to a Police Officer. Under NY law such a voluntary surrender immunizes you against prosecution. This woman walked up to a uniformed Police Officer and voluntarily surrender her weapon. She is therefore not guilty. This is not an affirmative defense she must prove in court, it is a written exemption. The D.A. has no case. Even if she should somehow be brought to trial and convicted (the jury will likely nullify) the Court of Appeals will reverse and issue a directed verdict of not guilty.
 
^ Wow if that's true then I hope the case is dropped, and NYC should take this as another sign to accept CCW's from other states (which they probably won't anyway).

is USA pretty much the only country where different places have different laws? as if we have too much time nothing better to do than read lots of laws
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Ironically the "United States" is very divided in many issues. 2A being one major one. Just think about the world of difference between NY and FL. I have literally bought/traded multiple firearms privately with other residents here and that is the norm. Could you do that in NY? Hell no.
 
Pursuant to New York State Penal Law 265.20 (f) a person is not guilty of criminal possession of a weapon when he or she voluntarily surrenders said weapon to a Police Officer. Under NY law such a voluntary surrender immunizes you against prosecution.
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Based on a quick read, I think it is necessary to surrender it to certain police officers
 
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