O.K. S & W collectors/experts.....

[BobWright]

During its heyday, were any Smith & Wesson No. 3 revolvers sold chambered for the .45 S&W cartridge that were not of the Schofield pattern? These commercial models?

As I recall, some double action top breaks were made in this caliber, and know the .45 No.3 was sold commercially , but were they of the Schofield pattern? I know S&W chafed at paying the royalty on guns sold.

Bob Wright

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Bob

When you say ".45 S&W cartridge" I am assuming you mean the cartridge I call the 45 Schofield cartridge, as opposed to the 44 S&W cartridge with the heeled bullet.

I don't know if I qualify as an expert, but my copy of The Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson does.

According to the SCSW, here are the chamberings of the five Top Break #3 models.

American Model, both 1st and 2nd Models: 44 S&W (the round with the heeled bullet) and 44 Rimfire Henry. SCSW says these were rare

Russian Model: 1st Model: 44 Russian, 2nd Model: 44 Russian and 44 Rimfire Henry, also listed as rare, 3rd Model: 44 Russian and 44 Rimfire Henry. No notation of the Henry chambering being rare.

Schofield both 1st and 2nd Models: 45 Schofield. This includes the Model of 2000 which was also only chambered for 45 Schofield.

New Model Number Three: This is the one that was chambered for 17 different chamberings: 44 Russian was standard, but also chambered for .32S&W, 32-44S&W, 320S&W Revolving Rifle, 38S&W, 38 Colt, 38-40, 38-44S&W, 41S&W, 44 Rimfire Henry, 44S&W American, 44-40, 45 Schofield, 450 Revolver, 45 Webley, 455Mark I, and 455 Mark II. SCSW says that all calibers other than 44 Russian are "scarce to rare." So no idea how many New Model Number Threes were actually chambered for 45 Schofield. The New Model Number Three had two variations, one chambered for 38-40 and one for 44-40. The 44-40 version was called the New Model Number Three Frontier, there were 2072 made. The 38-40 version was quite rare, it was called the New Model Number Three 38 Winchester, only 74 were made. Also, note the 38-44S&W cartridge mentioned is not the same as the powerful 38 Special cartridge of the 1930s. This cartridge along with the 32-44S&W were extra long cartridges that extended the full length of the cylinder so there was no bullet jump through a narrow chamber mouth. In fact, this 38-44 was pretty much an extra long 38S&W. These two cartridges were pretty well restricted to the New Model Number Three target models, with a target front sight and a windage adjustable rear sight. I'm still kicking myself over the 38-44 Target Model that I passed on a few years ago. It could also fire 38S&W, which is easy to reload.

44 Double Action: Both the 44 Double Action and the 44 Double Action Wesson Favorite were only chambered for 44 Russian. The 44 Double Action Frontier was chambered for 44 -40, there were 15,340 of them made, and the 38 Winchester Double Action was chambered for 38-40, only 276 of these were made.

It is interesting to note that the standard cylinder length S&W used beginning with the American Model was 1 7/16" long. This was the reason for the development of the 45 Schofield cartridge. The 1 7/16" long cylinder was too short for the 45 Colt cartridge, and S&W was busy making 150,000 Russian Models with the 1 7/16" long cylinder. They were not going to change the tooling for a longer cylinder and frame while in the middle of the lucrative Russian contracts. So the compromise of the 45 Schofield cartridge, that would fit into a 1 7/16" long cylinder was arrived at between S&W and the Army. Later, after the Schofield production was over with, S&W made cylinders 1 9/16" long, and slightly longer frames. These were used in the 44-40 and 38-40 New Model Number Threes and 44-40 ad 38-40 44 Double Actions.

You are correct about S&W chafing over paying Colonel Schofield the 50 cent royalty on the Schofield models. According to Smith and Wesson 1857-1945 by Neal and Jinks, Schofield was paid the royalty only on the 5934 2nd Model Schofields, but not on the 3035 1st Models. I do not know why. I have read that Daniel Wesson instructed his engineers to come up with a similar latch to the Schofield latch to get around Schofield's patent, but by the time Schofield production finished, they were only made from 1875 through 1877, the alternative latch had not been produced. By then it no longer mattered.

 

[BobWright]

Here are some period cartridges that you call .45 Schofield, these from Frankford Arsenal. The Benet primed cartridge carries no head stamp. The Boxer (?) primed carries the head stamp "R F 9 84" (Revolver, Frankford Sep. 1884). I have not seen a box for these so don't know how the box label would read.



Here are tow more specimens of the .45 S&W cartridge of somewhat later vintage. Note the 1891 version has a tinned case:



Here are some vintage commercial .45 caliber cartridges, the .45 S&W cartridge on the extreme left.



And head stamps of the above cartridges, same order:



So, from your information the only .45 caliber Smith & Wesson single action top breaks were of the Schofield latch type?

Bob Wright

 

[BobWright]

I found a phot of a box of cartridges from Frankford Arsenal dated 1880 and the description states they are the .45 "Schofield" cartridges. The box only identifies them as "Revolver Ball cartridges, calibre .45. Frankford Arsenal 1880"

https://clarksantiques.com/ammo/frankford-arsenal-colt-45-ammo

Bob Wright

 

[StrawHat]

Bob,

You are correct. There was no 45 Schofield cartridge back in the day. The proper term for the cartridge is .45 S&W.

Post about the 45 Long Colt and you will catch hell but post about the 45 Schofield and nobody cares!

Kevin

 

[StrawHat]

And let’s not even mention the 45 S&W Special!

Kevin

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

So, from your information the only .45 caliber Smith & Wesson single action top breaks were of the Schofield latch type?

Howdy Bob

Check again. You will see that one of the 17 cartridges the New Model Number Three was chambered for was 45 Schofield. I even put in bold type so you would notice it. There is no notation of how many New Model Number Threes were chambered for 45 Schofield, probably very few, but it was a chambering for that model. In fact, it looks like I took a little bit of liberty quoting SCSW as chambering the New Model Number Three for the 45 Schofield cartridge. Looking again, what it actually says is 45 S&W Schofield.

Just so we know what we are talking about, this is a New Model Number Three. This one is chambered for 44 Russian, which was the standard chambering for this model, but SCSW lists 17 cartridges this model was chambered for, including a few chambered for the 45 Schofield cartridge.






This is a Schofield revolver, with the distinctive frame mounted barrel latch. The only cartridge it was chambered for was 45 Schofield.






Pardon me if I have rubbed some folks here the wrong way, but as far as I am concerned, 44 S&W refers to the 44 caliber cartridge with a heeled bullet that was what the S&W American Model was chambered for. 45 Schofield is what the Schofield revolver, and a few new Model Number Threes were chambered for. My S&W reference books go back and forth, some call the cartridge 45 S&W, some call it 45 Schofield. I prefer to use the name 45 Schofield as it leaves no doubt what cartridge we are talking about.

In this photo, the two cartridges on the left are 45 Colt, the two on the right are 45 Schofield. The two cartridges in the center are the old Frankford Arsenal, Benet primed, copper cased rounds. The two cartridges on the outside are my own reloads using modern brass.






This photo shows four modern 45 Schofield rounds and two Benet primed 45 Schofield rounds chambered in a 2nd Gen Colt cylinder. Note the head stamp on the modern Starline rounds.






The same six rounds laid out below the Colt cylinder. The two Benet primed 45 Schofield rounds are the total of that cartridge I have in my cartridge collection. I have a few more Benet primed 45 Colt rounds.

I found a phot of a box of cartridges from Frankford Arsenal dated 1880 and the description states they are the .45 "Schofield" cartridges. The box only identifies them as "Revolver Ball cartridges, calibre .45. Frankford Arsenal 1880"

I have taken the liberty of scanning a page from Kuhnhausen's The Colt Single Action Revolvers, a Shop Manual, Volumes 1 & 2. This shows the military designations of the various forms of the 45 Colt and 45 Schofield cartridges. The top two are what we would call today the 45 Colt cartridge, the top one being the copper cased, Benet primed version, the 2nd one is a Boxer primed version. The lower three rounds are three versions of what I insist on calling, without apology, the 45 Schofield cartridge.

 

[BobWright]

Drift,

My point is the csrtridge was not known, IN ITS DAY, as the .45 Schofield, but rather the .45 Smith & Wesson. True, modern Johnny-come-lateleys , i.e., Star, do use the H/S .45 Schofield. But, like the term .45 LONG Colt is not truly correct.

Bob Wright

 

[BobWright]

And let’s not even mention the 45 S&W Special!

Kevin

Well, now that you have, the .45 S&W Special never existed as a commercially produced cartridge. The .45 S&W Special would have evolved from the .45 M1906 cartridge developed by Frankford Arsenal. I believe a quantity was made either by UMC or by Peters Cartridge Co., not sure without digging into my references. Smith & Wesson was fairly sure the round would be a success that they produced shipping boxes marked ".45 S&W Special." The cartridge never came to fruition, however. But when S&W got a contract to supply .455 Cal. Hand Ejectors to the English around 1914, they used the boxes to ship the British order. Talk about frugal!

Bob Wright

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Bob

I guess I am a Johnny Come Lately, because I will continue to call the cartridge in question the 45 Schofield. We will have to agree to disagree over that.

However, I hope I was able to answer your original question regarding other S&W Top Breaks chambered for the cartridge in question. In addition to the Schofield model itself, it appears there were an unknown number of New Model Number Three revolvers chambered for the cartridge.


*****************************************************


Nomenclature does tend to change over time. This is a scan of a reprint of the 1900 Smith and Wesson catalog. Notice this revolver is labeled Russian Model.






Every book I have, including those authored by Roy Jinks himself, calls that model the New Model Number Three. This is a New Model Number Three.






This is a Russian Model. Quite different from the 'Russian Model' in the 1900 catalog.

 

[StrawHat]

Well, now that you have, the .45 S&W Special never existed as a commercially produced cartridge. The .45 S&W Special would have evolved from the .45 M1906 cartridge developed by Frankford Arsenal. I believe a quantity was made either by UMC or by Peters Cartridge Co., not sure without digging into my references. Smith & Wesson was fairly sure the round would be a success that they produced shipping boxes marked ".45 S&W Special." The cartridge never came to fruition, however. But when S&W got a contract to supply .455 Cal. Hand Ejectors to the English around 1914, they used the boxes to ship the British order. Talk about frugal!

Bob Wright

Correct, S&W never threw anything away. That is why they were able to assemble the second shipment (after the war) of Brazilian Model 1917s from found parts.

The 45 S&W Special is a new favorite of mine, but that is for another thread.

Kevin

 

[BobWright]

One more thing, From what I have read, the first revolvers supplied for the Russian contract were identical to the early No. 3 Top Breaks, that is, identical to the American Model, but just chambered for the Russian cartridge, and thses were referred to, in the day, as the Russian Model as well. The second issue incorporated the grip changes for the Russian contract.

Bob Wright

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

That is correct Bob

This is a 1st Model Russian. Identical to the American Model, except chambered for the 44 Russian cartridge instead of the 44 S&W American cartridge with the heeled bullet. This one has some crazy after market grips on it, the barrel has been shortened a bit, and the front sight has been replaced with an old coin.






At first I thought it had been polished down to the white, but later I realized it was nickel plated at some time, not at the factory. The nickel plated hammer and trigger, as well as the rounding over of the edges of the side plate are evidence of a sloppy after market plating job. Some of the screw holes have been dished out too from too much polishing. Because of these changes I was able to grab it for much less than an unblemished 1st Model Russian.






This is a 2nd Model Russian. It has the characteristic big hump on the rear of the grip, and the spur on the trigger guard. Changes that the Russians specified.








There was a 3rd Model Russian too, I do not have an example of the 3rd Model. The only real change with the 3rd Model was a thumbscrew was incorporated at the top of the top strap to make removing the cylinder easier. The replicas manufactured by Uberti are all replicas of the 3rd Model Russian, with the thumbscrew on the top strap. If you zoom in on the photo of the Uberti Russian you will see the thumbscrew on top of the top strap.

https://www.uberti-usa.com/top-break-revolver