Off-duty cop kills man in bar fight

[Mad Chemist]

How about each and every one of you who said this officer screwed up, without any facts in hand, publicly apologize in this tread?

I don't believe that many will. That would take some stones. It will be a lot easier on their egos to use every rhetorical trick in the book to "prove" that that they were actually right.

This "condemnation through speculation" has become increasingly common around here. It's one of the reasons I don't come around much anymore. I prefer a bit of empirical analysis BEFORE I reach a conclusion. It helps me to avoid making an ass of myself.

 

[buzz_knox]

I still want too know why you think killing some one is worthy of a reward.

It depends on the person and the reason. We have historically offered rewards for the "heads" of certain figures because that's one way of getting them. I met one Soviet general who had a bounty on him because he was vice-commander of Soviet forces in Afghanistan.

As for the Medal of Honor comments, that medal tends to be awarded for the valor displayed by the one being honored, not simply because of the number of kills. That's why you'll see awards to those who saved lives, rather than simply taking them. And bringing THE Medal into this situation isn't appropriate.

Eyewitnesses individually are lousy, but you can piece together the stories to see what really happened. Here, that isn't necessary. The only relevant facts are the cop grabbed the wrong person and the decedent's group decided to carry out a mass assault. The former was unfortunate but even IF the cop had grabbed her, and then clearly lied when he said it was an accident (and please, don't tell me you haven't seen guys cop [no pun intended] feels like that, even with their girlfriends present), it wouldn't matter. Under the facts as presented, the cop was the victim of an attack wholly out of proportion to the pereceived wrong. That essentially perfects his claim of self-defense.

 

[MarcusWendt]

O.K., I'll try again.

IF and only IF you or anyone else is in a situation where people are attacking you or other innocent people, and under extreme pressure or while being assaulted, you have the ability and clarity of mind to not only identify yourself as a peace officer or as armed to give your attackers the chance to retreat, and then, only after they continue the attack, you draw your weapon and fire a kill shot on one or more attackers and stop shooting once the threat has been neutralized. If your hit rate is as high as this officers, which by the way is well above the average for police shootings, and you mange to do all this AFTER being ambushed by multiple assailants, are dazed, injured and no innocent bystanders get hit... I say you deserve an award.

An award for great performance under pressure. An award for combat marksmanship. An award for courage while under attack and out numbered. You choose.

The shooting occurred well after and separate from the ass smacking incident. There was NO, none, NADA justification for the attack on the officer.

The assailant happened to die due to the fine marksmanship of the officer and in keeping with his training. SHOOT TO KILL is what is taught. When the situation escalated to the level that deadly force is warranted, it's shoot to kill, not to wound, scare. wing, or make the assailant make water in is pants.

The assailant was a known scumbag and a felon. He had CLEARLY not been rehabilitated. He was back to his same old ways. He was a coward and a bully who used violent force causing great bodily injury to vent his anger.

I'm glad he's dead. He was unworthy of life as he could not behave in a civilized manner and he brutally attacked innocent people. Only by the grace of god did all his victims survive.

Now, allow me to ask you a few questions. What country are you from, and did you read about Vilan's prior offenses?

Since you are so fond of quotes I'll leave YOU with this: Vilan is dead, and that is a tragedy. But he is dead because he had no code. He is dead because he had no honor, and God was watching.

 

[Mad Chemist]

Battle Chimp Potempkin,
Cheers!
My hat's off to you. Don't be too hard on yourself. It's nice to read that someone has enough respect and self-respect to admit he was wrong.
Thank You,
MC

To the rest of ya......shameful.

 

[buzz_knox]

TAB

MarcusWendt really does have the right of it in terms of the analysis of the incident. There isn't a plausible way in which the cop was not justified based on what we know and what we can reasonably surmise.

 

[Larryect]

MarcusWendt

+1

 

[frankintank]

Conditional Apology to OC cop

I'll issue a Clintonian non-apology apology, subject to an upgrade as facts yet to be determined shall warrant.

Yeah, I prematurely trashed the cop before hearing about the history of the dirtbag that got shot. He won't be missed by me. I didn't give the cop the benefit of the doubt since in my experience, few in that line of work ever extend it. Ya get whatcha give.

Even if the cop was in the right as it appears he may have been, it sticks in my craw as an 18 year ccw holder, that I would never have gotten the treatment that the cop did in the same circumstance. At a minimum, I'd've gone to jail while things got sorted out. I notice that his cop buddies doing the investigation are willing to comment on all the exculpatory testimony, but are silent about whether or not the cop got an alcohol test. This is not a difficult question. Perhaps they are in the process of "losing" the inconvenient results. Seems to me that testing should be mandatory after any shooting by any person. You can bet they will publicize the dead guy's results which are sure to show that he was probably trashed at the time he picked his last fight.

If it turns out the cop was sober, my sincere apology for rushing to judgement. If not - you knew the rules.

If any good comes of this, perhaps it will be to help further establish that mutliple, mean assailants, even unarmed, constitute a shoot-worthy threat to ANYONE, police & civilian alike.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

depends where you live

where you loated frankintank?
we had a similar case here in va. two latino guys having meal late at waffle house 5 others guys from different country come in and start a fight . two guys try to descalate and leave. get followed outside and a beating starts 5 on 2 one guy gets off ground gets to his car 3 guys break off kicking his friend on the ground and charge him . he puts a few shots in em killed one for sure wounded another. . first two guys haul outa there scared. return in less than an hour face cops story is backed up by waffle house employees. they get to go home not sure if cops held the weaon for investigation but its likely. alsio likely they got it back when investigation complete. they never even released the shooters name in the papers

 

[frankintank]

depends where you live

Had CCW in California around 91-93. Been in Reno, Nevada ever since. I think I'm still mad at Cali for running me out with gun laws & other stupidity. AND ... the cops there were sure no friends of gun people. A few exceptions, sure. But in general, they were not our allies. In Cali, I knew a respected oncologist who spent more than $30,000 in legal fees to stave off an overzealous bay area prosecutor (persecutor?) because he displayed a firearm to a driver who had run him off the road and was advancing on him. Nobody was hurt, and the malice of the attacker wasn't even seriously questioned. But, they wanted to make an example of him for having the audacity to defend himself instead of waiting for the police. Reno seems to be more in the Virginia camp, but this may be changing with the huge influx of Californicators. I was the last good one to arrive here.

 

[RiflemanTripleEight]

Frank,
To be honest I don't think this website is for you. Check the name of the site again.

 

[TAB]

TAB

MarcusWendt really does have the right of it in terms of the analysis of the incident. There isn't a plausible way in which the cop was not justified based on what we know and what we can reasonably surmise.

Thats not the point I was trying to make... it was that he feels the act of killing some one, even if justifed deserves some type of commendation. I disagree with that completly. Infact it makes me ill. From the info that was given I think his actions had a part to play in why the attack happend, but thats beside the point.

Statements like what was made is ammo for the other side and it shines a bad light on the firearms community as a whole.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Amazing.

Absolutely amazing.

I am not exactly the world's leading cheerleader for the thin blue line, but from the very first article it appeared that all independent (as in "unbiased") witnesses said the officer was assaulted in a sneak attack, while the only witnesses who claimed the officer started the fracas were associates of the two guys who got shot. Yet, innumerable supposed RKBA advocates leaped unerringly to the falacious conclusion that the cop was at fault.

As each successive news story divulged yet more information supporting the view that the cop was sucker punched and had not been drinking, inexplicably most of the cop bashers continued to maintain that the officer was in the wrong, and that in the face of four- or five-to-one odds, after having had a chair smashed over his head, he had no right to defend himself.

Things really began to clear up with the article that contained this nugget:

Vilan, who was on parole after spending six years in state prison for two assaults, had a lengthy history of ganging up on people and attacking them, according to court records. His convictions included two unprovoked assaults in 1996 and 1998, which involve Vilan smashing two people in the face with beer bottles.

In a 1996 attack, Vilan smashed a man in the face with a beer bottle, and continued to hold the broken bottle over his victim's face until the man's brother hit Vilan over the head with a wrench.

In the 1998 incident, Vilan, who was on bail at the time, approached a guest at a birthday party and sniffed him, saying, "You smell like white trash." The two men squared off, but before any punches could be thrown, Vilan smashed a beer bottle in the face of the man who stepped between them, court records show.

An October 2001 opinion by Court of Appeal, 4th Appellate District, also show a series of allged assaults for which Vilan was never charged, including a birthday party in August 1996 when Vilan and a friend were said to have brutally beat a guest who tried to stop them from ransacking the bedroom of the host's father, punching him and stomping on his head with steel-toed boots.

A month later, Vilan and two other men were accused of jumping the brother of one of Vilan's previous victims, punching him, knocking him to the ground and kicking him, court records show.

In November 1997, according to court accounts, Vilan and two other men attacked a man eating in his car with his girlfriend outside a fast-food restaurant, punching and kicking him.

Two months later, Vilan punched a man in the face three times just for looking at him, according to court records.

"None of the victims did any provoking – Vilan and his cohorts did all the provoking. All the victims were outnumbered. All the encounters featured 'low blows,' i.e., unfair fighting by Vilan and his cohorts," wrote Manuel A. Ramirez, presiding justice of the California Court of Appeal, 4rth Appellate District, in the October 2001 opinion rejecting Vilan's appeal that evidence admitted in his two trials was improperly admitted.

And, in the face of all that, it seems there is still a vocal contingent that is unwilling to acknowledge that (a) Vilan and pals almost certainly initiated a group assault on the officer, and (b) Vilan was a guy who really REALLY needed to be shot.

I don't get it. I sincerely hope none of you live in my state, because I'd hate to have attitudes like yours on the jury if I ever have to use a firearm to defend myself. Y'all ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

 

[wideym]

I for one am outraged that the officer did not simply submit to the beating until on-duty officers arrived, 2-10 minutes later like everyone else. How dare he protect himself from violent attackers with a gun!

But seriously, it shows that the criminal element does not care who you are or who you work for. The suvivors should be charged with assaulting an officer (after he identified himself) and perhaps attempted murder or felony murder if their state has such a law.

 

[buzz_knox]

Thats not the point I was trying to make... it was that he feels the act of killing some one, even if justifed deserves some type of commendation. I disagree with that completly. Infact it makes me ill. From the info that was given I think his actions had a part to play in why the attack happend, but thats beside the point.

Statements like what was made is ammo for the other side and it shines a bad light on the firearms community as a whole.

The simple fact is that society often rewards killing when it's necessary. Some may kill in order to save other lives, some may kill to complete a mission, and some may kill in order to deny the enemy the use of that individual, or the equipment the individual is using (fighter pilots don't kill people, they take out vehicles which happen to contain people). Individuals who kill to save lives, to complete the mission, or to achieve some military advantage get recognized, awards, commendations, promotions, etc. The vast majority don't carry out the actions because they anticipate the reward (although some have been known to do just that); they do it because it's the right thing to do.

MarcusWendt's point is that the cop appears to have shown great courage and ability under extreme duress after someone else began a wholly irrational and unreasonable response to an action that (assuming for the sake of argument was malicious) did not warrant or justify an attack, let alone an attempted murder. Should he be "rewarded" for that? That's up to his community and department. But even if you think he shouldn't in this case, it's a purely emotional argument with no historical or societal basis to state that it's unwarranted and wrong in all cases.

 

[Bailey Guns]

MarcusWendt is right on. This type of anti-cop nonsense is exactly why I left the job after 15 years.

To all of you cop-bashers: there's a reason so many good cops (and, frankly, I considered myself among them) leave after nearly a full career. It's because the public, for the most part, sucks. I know I hesitated in pulling the trigger more than once in a confrontation because of exactly what's going on here. A few people will withhold judgment. But the majority will immediately find fault with the cop, simply because of an irrational bias, and the facts of the case be damned. I even had a district court judge tell a defendant charged with assaulting me with a screwdriver that "that officer should have shot you". He's right. I should have. But I didn't because of the chickens*** department I worked for tended to care first and foremost about some whiny, anti-cop type than it did it's officers. If I had shot that guy it would have been me being crucified on boards like this for saving my life.

Some day those of you who are wishing for a "kindler, gentler" police officer will get exactly what you want. Then, when you need a warrior type to save you or a family member you're going to be sorry when the best the local PD can do is send a college-educated secretary with a gun to take the report.

We're seeing that sort of anti-warrior mentality every where these days and it sickens me. "Let's send our young men and women off to war but, for God's sake, don't let them walk around a war zone with a loaded gun because someone might get hurt."

It is irrelevant if the officer slapped this woman on the bottom. It has no bearing on this case whatsoever. It's a moot point and can in no way possibly be admitted as a defense to multiple persons assaulting this officer apparently hours after the fact. It can't be made any clearer than that.

If the BAC results come back and show the officer had enough alcohol in his system to affect his judgment and he's punished for that, so be it.

If the BAC results come back and show the officer had no alcohol in his system or an insignificant amount, there won't be enough crow to feed the lot of you who desparately need a meal of it.

Some apologies to the officer by members here seemed sincere. Others...why even bother? Your bias and irrational hatred are shining through your "apology" despite your lame-a$$ed attempts at concealing it.

Shaun Vilan and his buddy NEEDED killing. I,for one, am glad there was a MAN willing to get up in the morning, put on his big-boy undies instead of lace panties and step up and do it for the rest of us. Shaun Vilan will terrorize no one again because of the skill and bravery of a police officer.

I'm just a little irritated that modern medical technology being what it is the other scumbag survived.

 

[MarcusWendt]

Seems to me that testing should be mandatory after any shooting by any person.

It is mandatory Frank, but labs here in SoCal are very backed up. It takes times.

 

[MarcusWendt]

it was that he feels the act of killing some one, even if justifed deserves some type of commendation.

Again I ask what country you are from? It's an honest question as you seem to have difficulty with the English language.

I NEVER said killing someone deserves an award. I pointed out some circumstances, including this one, where I think an award is justified. You are picking out one aspect of the entire event and hanging your entire argument on it. That is a bunch of mealy mouthed cow excrement and you know it.

Infact it makes me ill. From the info that was given I think his actions had a part to play in why the attack happend

.

Just like rape victims deserve to be raped if they dress sexy? The one thing this officer did, BY MISTAKE!!! (No facts to prove otherwise) was over and done with. The officer had apologized. OVER. LATER he was attacked.

Statements like what was made is ammo for the other side and it shines a bad light on the firearms community as a whole.

After we get a translation of this statement maybe we can try and figure out why, to make your very weak argument, you insist on grossly distorting the truth?

 

[MarcusWendt]

Reno seems to be more in the Virginia camp, but this may be changing with the huge influx of Californicators. I was the last good one to arrive here.

I'm sure that's what the other folks there said before you showed up. Only two posts and already making friends huh Frank?

Your hypocrisy is ASTOUNDING!!!!

 

[2nd 41]

>>Just goes to show that Firearms and Alcohol do not mix.

I agree but, I've been plenty drunk and it's never occurred to me to start shooting people.




Correct...have a few and spend the evening chasing woman, dancing, watching the tube....something like that.

 

[Biker]

I swear, according to some, it seems that an individual loses the right to self defense if an adult beverage is consumed.

Biker

 

[Bailey Guns]

Alcohol and being stupid don't mix, either. Apparently, Shaun Vilan was a really slow learner. Well, he's now a graduate of the School of Hard Knocks with a Masters in Jacketed Hollowpoints. He has finally learned his lesson. Good riddance.

 

[RiflemanTripleEight]

Another example of the media recklessly reporting a story before having any facts, or even caring what the facts are. All you need is a catchy title since most peoplen't even read the articles.

"A fight broke out" As far as I can tell a person was sucker punched and attacked. Not a couple of mutual combatants duking it out.

Sad that we allow the media to force feed us trash with no reprecussions.

 

[MarcusWendt]

Bailey Guns

BRAVOOO!!!! BRAVO!!! ENCORE!!!!

Sadly Bailey we live in a world of hand wringers who just don't get it. They have neither the stomach, the sack, nor the wisdom to go out there and do the job of men. Instead, they compensate for their lack of courage by claiming to posses a higher understanding and purpose. They are lovers of small animals, children, and all things pretty and perfect. The "man" keeps everyone down in their world. If it weren't for jack booted thugs like you and I, gang members, drug dealers, and child molesters would just spontaneously combust.

I keep waiting for the government to tuck me in at night, rub my belly, and post a guard outside my door so I'll feel all safe and warm, but my season pass to Disneyland expired and I actually have to care for myself. I applaud the police for the thankless job they do. They go out every day with a uniform that tells every criminal and good citizens that there is someone there who gives a damn. I don't know any rich cops. I do know some permanently disabled cops, some dead cops, and some cops who still go out every day to protect people like TAB who are asleep at the wheel, and like Frank who dislikes them because he perceives a lack of power. They protect these guys and people like them without out concern about their personal issues. They do the job because it's good and right and a noble calling.

What's worse is that some of these cop bashers make things up and outright lie in a vain attempt to post an argument. I respect their right to have a different opinion, but when they start to lie, well, it just paints a very unfavorable picture of them.

This officer did the job of a man and he did it well. I applaud his action while under attack. I thank him for exterminating a foul, violent, pest. While some here think my support of him is offensive, I will not waver. I know the trauma this officer is going through. His every breath that day being analyzed, and scrutinized. He is worried about losing his job, his pension, and the likely lawsuit the VILE VERMIN's family will file. He'll have nightmares and night sweats. He'll question if he will still go to heaven when he passes. Sure there will be slaps on the back, congratulations, and dark humor, but at the end of the day, this officer will be left to deal with pain and suffering. His life will be upended for some time to come and the specter of all kinds of bad things will hang over him for many years.

 

[buzz_knox]

There is sufficient stupidity on both sides of the cop bashing argument that neither side would be well served not to paint with broad brushes.

The middle ground is that some cops are great, some cops are scum, and most are doing their job. That's true in most every other aspect of humanity, and is likely true in this one.

 

[Bailey Guns]

This officer did the job of a man and he did it well. I applaud his action while under attack. I thank him for exterminating a foul, violent, pest. While some here think my support of him is offensive, I will not waver. I know the trauma this officer is going through. His every breath that day being analyzed, and scrutinized. He is worried about losing his job, his pension, and the likely lawsuit the VILE VERMIN's family will file. He'll have nightmares and night sweats. He'll question if he will still go to heaven when he passes. Sure there will be slaps on the back, congratulations, and dark humor, but at the end of the day, this officer will be left to deal with pain and suffering. His life will be upended for some time to come and the specter of all kinds of bad things will hang over him for many years.

Give me the "Been There, Done That" t-shirt. I still deal with the "what ifs" had a situation I went through turned out differently.

If that officer were here I'd buy him a beer, propose a toast to him, his skill and his courage and I'd do it wearing my gun!