Officer's response to 911 call that wasn't made.

[Lonestar49]

What's missing.. lol

...

Noisy 911 call, no call made from the house, ~ Roswell, New Mexico ~

Sounds like a low flying UFO made a low-ball pass over your house.. lol

Glad all was ok, and as mentioned about opening your door to the LEO's late at night, be careful in the grey-areas..


Ls

 

[Firethorn]

If they have the newer software they can locate a cell phone without calling back. It has been illegal for several years for a cell phone provider to activate a phone that doesn't have GPS capability. Even if you have it turned off on your cell phone, it will activate when 911 is dialed.

Actually, it's a requirement for them to be able to locate the phone; not that the system be GPS; or even that accurate.

Most phones still don't have GPS. Locating them is done by triangulation and signal strengths.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Interesting,

Explain to you that one might not be necessary because the Supreme Court has ruled that under exigent circumstances we can enter residence and that an emergency call was placed from this residence which may establish that there are exigent circumstances permitting them to enter without a warrant. that totally depends on exactly what the 911 operator heard and what the officers found on arrival.

So in essence, a prank caller pulled into your telephone box and a 'co-operative' 911 operator can effectively negate your fourth amendment rights.

I mean, these are police officers, professionals that have your best interests a heart and that pesky old Constitution just makes their job harder.

Selena

 

[Bazooka Joe71]

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I was thinking about this the other day and this thread seems like a good time to ask:

My front door has a small window about 5 1/2-6' up the door, plenty low enough for at least a male police officer to see in. I have never had the police come to my house, but what if this happened and I, like many others would answer the door with one of my pistols in hand and they saw it?

I guess my question is has anyone done this before and what was the cops reaction?

Or, if you are a PO what would your reaction be?

 

[CheyennePilot]

I did not recognize the people as Roswell PD. They did not identify themselves to my wife, who had first contact, or me, as Roswell PD.

We use Vonage for a Phone service. That maybe part of the problem if we in fact dialed 911. WE Did Not!!! Jeff I tried not to look upset about the intrusion. I hate being a Second class Citizen. Dialing 911 is never my first option. I'm sure I speak for many others that had their rights impinged.
I do understand the LEO's job. I have worked security for many years so I have been on both sides of the fence. I did learn something though. When I heard the knock at the door, my first action was not going for the weapon, which was close at hand. They however, did not know that. I was ready in case they were not what they protrayed to be.
All in all it has been an eye opening experience. I do appreaciate the insite that has come forth.

HappyLandings!

CheyennePilot.

 

[Deanimator]

I'm not recommending anyone get cocky, or clever, or confrontational.

I really do understand Jeff's points about the cop's perspective. The few times I've had dealings with the police, I've always made it a point to be polite, respectful of their point of view, etc. Mainly, I want to reassure them and help them to relax.

I have the canned response, "You don't have my permission to do ANYTHING."

That removes any double-negatives or ambiguities. They may force their way in and do what they want anyway, but it starts the litigational version of "Hellraiser" rolling if necessary. Once opened, the puzzle box can't be closed again until my lawyer has flayed someone alive.

I'm from Chicago where there has recently been a home invasion/burglary/kidnapping ring operating within the Chicago PD, and apparently with the knowledge of higher-ups and their version of internal affairs. The Federal Prosecutor who handled the Scooter Libby case is investigating.

I don't trust the police to respect my rights by default. Recent [and not so recent] events prove I can't afford to.

 

[Jeff White]

Officers'Wife said;

So in essence, a prank caller pulled into your telephone box and a 'co-operative' 911 operator can effectively negate your fourth amendment rights.

No that isn't what I said. If you would read the entire sentence you quoted you would find that it says: and what the officers found on arrival.

It is the totality of the circumstances involved. Something that is pretty easy to understand, but doesn't lend itself to pithy anti-police statements like:

I mean, these are police officers, professionals that have your best interests a heart and that pesky old Constitution just makes their job harder.

Can you point out an instance of prankers driving around a neighborhood with a land line phone and opening people's phone boxes on the side of their house and making false 911 calls? Has it happened anywhere or is it something you just made up?

It's exigent circumstances that allow the police and EMS to enter the home of an elderly resident who has fallen and broken their hip and doesn't complete the 911 call. It's exigent circumstances that lead to the domestic battery arrest where the batterer has ripped the phone from the wall while the victim was calling 911, and the batterer has stood on the porch refusing entry and not producing the victim who made the call to verify he/she is all right. Perhaps you'd rather warrants were applied for in those cases?

Exigent circumstances was explained in the same post you cut and pasted the sentence you took to cop bash with. Explains a whole lot about what's wrong with our society, people are unwilling to face reality when it conflicts their personal worldview.

Jeff

 

[Coronach]

So in essence, a prank caller pulled into your telephone box and a 'co-operative' 911 operator can effectively negate your fourth amendment rights.

Except for the fact that the 911 call is recorded and when it turns out that such and such wasn't so, someone will find themselves in court being sued. When you get right down to it, anyone can make up anything and justify their actions. The trouble comes when their testimony is at odds with reality.

Exigent circumstances are really common sense exceptions to the warrant requirement, predicated on the Amendment's protection against unreasonable searches and seizures.

"Help me! He's beating me with a baseball bat!"

"Sorry. We don't have a warrant. But we'll be back in two hours when we have one."

-or-

"Sir, I know you're bleeding to death and cannot talk because you're unconscious, but you're inside of your house. We have to get a warrant."

How reasonable would proceeding inside to render assistance be? Pretty darned reasonable, in most people's opinion. 911 calls are, essentially, calls summoning the police and requesting assistance.

Now, every officer out there knows that not all 911 calls are emergencies. Heck, most aren't. Kids play on the phone, people dial 911 instead of 411, people call 911 then think better of it (sometimes in situations where there is a crime or disturbance, often in situations where there's no crime, just an argument), phone lines fail, phone systems get numbers mixed up, dispatchers send officers to wrong addresses, officers get houses mixed up. All of this happens, and all of these errors/glitches/whatever far outnumber actual emergencies. We're still required to respond. And when we get there, we are confronted with one of two scenarios (broadly speaking):

1. Bob has just been roused from a sound sleep by a knock on his door. Unbeknownst to him, his Verizon phone system is operated by poo-flinging monkeys (sorry, Jeff), and it has generated a 911 call to his residence. He goes down and finds the cops on his front porch. He opens the door. "yes? Can I help you?" "We got a 911 call from this residence. Is everything OK?" "What? Uh. Yes. Everything's fine. No one called 911 from here."

2. Bob has just finished killing his wife, and has just dragged the body to the basement to chop her up and dispose of the parts. Unbeknownst to him, that cheating little trollop managed to get to the phone and hit 9 1 1 before the hatchet struck the base of her neck, putting an end to her extramarital affairs once and for all. He is summoned from the butchering by a knock on his door. He goes up and finds the police on his porch. He opens the door. "yes? Can I help you?" "We got a 911 call from this residence. Is everything OK?" "What? Uh. Yes. Everything's fine. No one called 911 from here."

Notice that the response is the same in both of these instances? What? 911? We didn't call 911! This is why the officers can and should do what they can to investigate a weeeeebit further. Do you have to let them in? that kinda depends. Are you standing there in your PJs, looking for all the world like you just rolled out of bed? Or are you standing there in your bloodsoaked PJ's, looking for all the world like you're trying to inexpertly disassemble your first deer in the basement at 0430 hrs? Does your house look like a fight occurred? Are you denying there is anyone else home when the officers can plainly hear a woman crying in the background?

If you deny the officers entry, which is your Constitutional right, the officers will be forced to fall back on what they know and can see. Does it look like a crime has been committed? Does it look like someone is in need of assistance? If he answers are no, then it's "OK, sorry to wake you, have a good night." If the answers are yes, then they will force entry and make sure that no one is dead/dying/assaulted/etc.

Mike

 

[41magsnub]

Quote:
Source reference or link please. I work in the industry and I don't believe that is the case but I am willing to be educated.
When my daughter in law (works for Verizon) I'll ask her, she was the one who told me when I asked about getting an older phone I had activated.

Might want to check on that before repeating it again. I just last week activated an old ultra-low end phone through Verizon that does not have any GPS functionality or capability.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Exigent circumstances are really common sense exceptions to the warrant requirement, predicated on the Amendment's protection against unreasonable searches and seizures.

Of course, and an emergency call to a system with a history of false calls would of course qualify. The fourth is simple left over eighteenth century garbage anyway.

Scenerio: Election year DA needs a high profile case desparately. Low level felon plays 'let's make a deal' plugs into the outside telephole tap and let's out a low but painful scream.

No no, would never happen. All police are honest and would never break the rules and DA's are only interested in the truth. I saw it on TV.

Selena

 

[KelVarnson]

A side note here...

Take the time to call or visit your local PD to make sure that all of your information is correct in their database, e.g. that your land line number matches your address, and that they have your cell number in case there is an emergency at your house while you are away.

Making sure this is all correct might also keep them from inadvertently sending officers to your house when your neighbor or someone else calls 911. The system is only as good as the information programmed into it.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

"Has it happened anywhere or is it something you just made up? "


"No no, would never happen. All police are honest and would never break the rules and DA's are only interested in the truth. I saw it on TV"


was that a no? or a windy avoidance

 

[Officers'Wife]

cassandrasdaddy,

OK, histronics aside. For 14 months I was a foster child of Chicago's DCFS. I learned from hard experience that the state is not only a very bad parent but not to be trusted at all. The brilliance of our Constitution are the built in checks and balances to the powers of the three houses of government. Anytime any one of those checks are easily bypassed is a source of great suspicion for me. When the poster claimed that exigent circumstance was based on 'common sense' the warning bells went off like sixty acres of Big Ben.

We are supposed to be a nation of laws not of men. Placing a Constitutional guarentee in the hands of any group of men's 'common sense', especially a group working for a political office such as the Distric Attorney is a direct affront to the nation of laws.

Any system capable of being abused will be abused. The executive branch is no exception, making police officers 'more equal' in the equality of law should be a matter of great concern.

Selena

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

so a no?

 

[Officers'Wife]

Cassndrasdaddy

so a no?

Not to my knowledge. Are you prepared to tell me that in all of the United States there are no prosecutors capable of such an act?

Selena

 

[Slugless]

Thanks, Jeff

Jeff,

Thanks for answering the questions I posed. There were a lot of them and I know that took some time and thought.

Some of the questions I threw in because of other poster's descriptions of what they did or plan to do.

Usually the presence of a marked squad car and uniformed officers is enough of a clue for most people

+1

Your answers were pretty much as expected, thank you for your time.

 

[benEzra]

Except for the fact that the 911 call is recorded and when it turns out that such and such wasn't so, someone will find themselves in court being sued. When you get right down to it, anyone can make up anything and justify their actions. The trouble comes when their testimony is at odds with reality.

Unless you consented to a search, right? If you did consent, you would then have no defense.

Can you point out an instance of prankers driving around a neighborhood with a land line phone and opening people's phone boxes on the side of their house and making false 911 calls? Has it happened anywhere or is it something you just made up?

AFAIK, they don't need to physically tap into your phone box, if they can spoof the system.

http://www.ocregister.com/news/home-emami-county-1894171-ellis-system

Man accused of hacking into 911

Washington man accused of faking emergency call that sent armed response to unsuspecting Lake Forest family's home.
By SALVADOR HERNANDEZ
The Orange County Register
Comments 30 | Recommend 45

LAKE FOREST – SWAT officers expected to find a victim shot to death, drugs and a belligerent armed suspect when they surrounded the home of an unsuspecting couple, but found they were only a part of a false emergency call caused by a teenager who hacked into the county’s emergency response system, authorities said.

As officers swarmed the home with assault rifles, dogs and a helicopter, a Lake Forest couple and their two toddlers inside their home slept unsuspectingly.

On March 29 at 11:30 p.m., authorities allege, Randall Ellis, a 19-year-old from Mukilteo, Wash., hacked into the county’s 911 system from his home and placed a false emergency call, prompting a fully armed response to the home of an unsuspecting couple that could have ended tragically.

Thinking that a prowler was roaming his back yard, a resident of the home, identified only as Doug B. in the district attorney’s complaint filed in court, walked outside with a kitchen knife as SWAT officers from the Orange County Sheriff’s Department waited with assault rifles.

“It was just a horrifying experience,” said Doug B., who requested not to be identified further. “You think you feel safe in your own home. We had no idea what was going on.”

Doug B. and his wife did not feel safe in their home for weeks after the incident and wondered why their home was the one selected.

Doug B. was not able to go back to sleep for hours that night, and he rigged the doors and windows before he was able to go to bed.

“I thought someone was in my back yard, and they were going to get my family,” he said. “It was terrifying for months afterward.”

Officers apprehended and cuffed the resident and his wife, identified as Stacy B. It was moments later they learned the call was false, said Lt. Mike McHenry of the South County Investigations Bureau.

“The danger is significant,” said Lt. Don Barnes, chief of police services for Lake Forest. “That (situation) played out OK, although it scared the victims significantly.”

Ellis is expected to appear in an Orange County courtroom Monday to face charges of computer access and fraud, false imprisonment by violence, falsely reporting a crime and assault with an assault weapon by proxy.

“It’s not a prank,” Emami said. “People’s lives were in danger.”

Farrah Emami, spokeswoman for the Orange County District Attorney’s Office, said
Ellis selected the couple’s name and address at random and electronically transferred false information into the 911 system.

Authorities believe this is not the only time that Ellis has done this. As part of their investigation, authorities believe Ellis created similar false SWAT responses in Bullhead, Ariz.; Millcreek Township, Pa.; and in his hometown of Mukilteo, Wash.

False 911 calls are placed all the time, McHenry said, but he said this is the first time someone has hacked into Orange County’s system and created a false call in this way.

“We’ve seen nothing like this,” McHenry said. “This was unique. This was pretty serious.”

Other law enforcement agencies have seen similar breaches into their 911 systems as part of a trend picked up by computer hackers in the nation called “SWATting”, Barnes said.

The purpose is to create a false 911 call that appears to be coming from the residence in question and prompt a SWAT response from local law enforcement agencies, Barnes said.

Authorities would not divulge details on how Ellis hacked into the system, stating that doing so would jeopardize the investigation and possibly create copycats. But the call that prompted a full response to the Lake Forest home started as a call to the Orange County Fire Authority as a drug overdose and progressed into a possible murder, McHenry said.

A supposed teenager stated someone had overdosed on cocaine. The teenager then stated he had been shot in the shoulder and that attackers were going to go shoot and kill his sister, he said.

Canines, a helicopter and SWAT officers responded to the false call.

“It was a pretty large response,” McHenry said.

Through electronic forensics, investigators were able to link Ellis to the false call, Emami said.

Ellis does not appear to have a criminal record, Emami said, but it looks like he’s done this before. He was taken into custody by authorities in Mukilteo on Friday. He waived extradition Monday in court and is expected to appear in Orange County Superior Court on Oct. 22 for an arraignment hearing.

Now Doug B. said he is hoping that the upcoming court proceedings can shed some light into why this happened and why his family was targeted.

“My family is my life and to feel like its being threatened is horrifying,” he said.

 

[ralphie98]

41MAGSNUB
I think there is confusion between E911 capable devices and GPS. The FCC does require that all newly activated wireless devices be E911 capable. You may not be able to map your driving route on your phone, but 911 will be able to locate you if needed.

http://www.fcc.gov/pshs/911/enhanced911/Welcome.html

 

[Jeff White]

Officers'Wife said;

Of course, and an emergency call to a system with a history of false calls would of course qualify.

What part of The call itself would not likely qualify, unless the 911 operator heard an obvious crime in progress is so hard to understand?

The fourth is simple left over eighteenth century garbage anyway.

Of course it is, that's why we spend so much in service training time dealing with it...........

Scenerio: Election year DA needs a high profile case desparately. Low level felon plays 'let's make a deal' plugs into the outside telephole tap and let's out a low but painful scream.

Scenario continued: Preliminary hearing 3 days later - Defense Attorney:

Your honor I move to have the evidence that was seized from my client's excluded from these proceedings. I have reviewed the police reports and the officers violated my client's right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures under the 4th amendment to the Constitution. The officer's report stated that upon receiving a report of a 911 call, where the caller made a low, painful sounding scream, he drove to the residence that showed up on the 911 operators screen. This residence was the home of my client. Upon arrival the officer found the house was dark, there were no broken down doors or broken out windows or any other sign of forced entry. The officer rang the doorbell and knocked loudly on the door in an attempt to make contact. My client answered the door in his pajamas, having obviously been awakened. My client told the officer that everyone in the house had been asleep and no one called 911 and everything was fine. The officer asked who else lived in the house and my client stated his wife and 12 year old child. The officer asked to speak to everyone in the house to check on their welfare and my client complied. The officer, still not convinced, then pushed his way past my client and entered the house. While checking for the person who made the 911 call, the officer discovered the 14 AK47 select fire assault rifles, 20,000 rounds of ammunition, 40 kilos of cocaine, a methamphetamine production laboratory, and 96 slick papered magazines that were child pornography. The officer then placed my client under arrest on several charges.

Your honor, regardless of the seriousness of the charges against him, my client should be freed because the officer had no legal right to enter the residence. My client complied with all of the officer's demands, and there was no probable cause that would lead a reasonable man to believe that exigent circumstances existed that would have allowed a warrant less search of my clients home.

Judge: Your motion is sustained. The evidence against your client was seized illegally and not admissible.

Defense Attorney: Your honor, since there is no other evidence that my client has committed any crime, I ask that the charges be dismissed with prejudice and that he be freed immediately and his bond returned.

Judge: Mr. Prosecutor, do you have any other evidence against Mr _____?

Prosecutor: No your honor, not at this time.

Judge: I grant the motion to dismiss the charges, but without prejudice. Mr Prosecutor, if you can legally produce evidence that Mr. _______ is guilty of these charges, you are free to refile them.

Two days later

Mr. ________ files 1983 action in federal court charging the officer, the police department and the prosecutor with violating his 4th amendment rights under the color of law.

The next day

Local newspaper gets a hold of the federal 1983 lawsuit. Headline reads: LOCAL PROSECUTOR SUED IN FEDERAL COURT FOR CONSPIRING TO VIOLATE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS

Officer's Wife said;

We are supposed to be a nation of laws not of men. Placing a Constitutional guarentee in the hands of any group of men's 'common sense', especially a group working for a political office such as the Distric Attorney is a direct affront to the nation of laws.

Would you place it in the hands of apes, or I know how about horses...that's it, horses understand the Constitution...

I'm sorry, but until the aliens land and give us all the wisdom of the universe, we have no chance but to put our constitutional guarantees into the hands of men.

We have a court system that suppresses illegally obtained evidence every day that court is in session.

Any system capable of being abused will be abused. The executive branch is no exception, making police officers 'more equal' in the equality of law should be a matter of great concern.

How is the exigent circumstances rule making police officers more equal? The courts with the exclusionary rule are the check on the police.

 

[RPCVYemen]

Cooperate, open the door, answer a couple questions and it's over.

And maybe thank them for doing a difficult dangerous job.

Walking up to a dark house in the middle of the night when someone inside maybe engaged in a crime and ready to shoot you cannot be a lot of fun.

I don't get the attitude some folks have towards police - the contact I have had has mostly been decent guys doing a hard job. Some have been more friendly than others - but the truth is that they aren't really there to be my best friend.

If they came to my house in the middle of the night, I don't see any reason to get an attitude. If they got a 911 call from my house - even do to a software bug - I'd just as soon they came out. If they got a hangup call from your house, would you rather they not come?

I can also fully understand that if they are called to an address where guns are present, they want to be pretty sure that those weapons are under their control/not accessible while they are there.

Do the police make mistakes? I began to understand a long time ago that everyone makes mistakes - not all the time - but most of us make a mistake now and then. So I don't expect the police to never make a mistake.

So I got to tell you that even though I support the Bill of Rights, playing chest pounding dominance games when there is a simple mistake or misunderstanding is just silly.

Mike

 

[TexasRifleman]

If you don't believe me, try dialing one of your friends (or your own number) by clicking the hook button the appropriate number of times for each digit.

That absolutely does not work any longer except in VERY old phone systems in the most rural areas. Even those old 1A style (still some analog) switches are being updated.

The click method has been dead for at least 10 years except in the absolute sticks.

Modern telephone switches (modern being actual switches not VoIP which is seriously modern but rare comparatively) of the DMS250 (Nortel) and 5E (Lucent) at one time supported analog switching dial but most of those services were removed years ago and in fact are no longer even manufactured.

Super modern phone systems like Vonage don't even have lines at all, merely an IP connection from a box in the customers house over the Internet to a VoIP switch at the service provider. Dial tone in that case is a sound file played in a loop by a box at the customers location. 9-1-1 services there are set up manually when the phone is installed, and it is not required that customers even fill out the 9-1-1 info as yet.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Jeff White Posted: ....It has been illegal for several years for a cell phone provider to activate a phone that doesn't have GPS capability....

Absolutely not true. Even the latest hot toy, the iPhone, does not have GPS capability.

The current method of finding a cell phone is by triagulation between multiple cell sites. You've heard of this technique on the news trying to locate cell phones by their "ping" (2 way handshake with the cell site radio).

GPS phones are still few and far between. Jeff White said his daughter in law worked for Verizon. Verizon in fact is the largest supplier and user of GPS enabled phones and it very well may be company policy there to not activate non GPS phones, but there is no regulation around that.

Voice services, infrastructure, and regulatory issues is what I do for a living.

 

[RPCVYemen]

we have no chance but to put our constitutional guarantees into the hands of men.

I emphasizes the fact that we have to chose to employ human beings as police, or not to have police.

The writers of the Constitution were adults, they knew that people made mistakes. None of the amendments can be construed to say that "Human beings shall not make mistakes." Jeff is right, the (adult) solution to illegal search and seizure is not to require human beings to be perfect. The solution is to return property or make reparations. If the evidence was seized improperly, it cannot be used in trial.

If someone really wants to experience a city with no police, I probably still have the keys to my house/compound in Mogadishu. For anyone that knows the city, it's close to the K-10 complex across the Airport road from the "new" American embassy. I left early in the breakdown, but it was already getting pretty hairy there.

I chose to live in a city with police. For all of many posters' bluster, a city without police ain't a heck of a lot of fun.

Mike

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

i think some folks make the mistake of believing all these folks have the tude in real life. its often not so. in fact the fact that so many folks are afraid when the cops show up account for the attitude. folks lash out at that they fear. particularly that they are not familiar with. cops don't bother me much, anymore. funny how some folks who've had genuine interactions that resulted in longterm consequences are less anti than those who live in the world of "it coulda happened that way"

 

[SalTx]

So leo's ain't there to be your friends? Then they ain't your friends. Exigent circumstances?..so it doesn't really matter then, what we think, feel, believe, know to be the truth? so long as YOU think what is best. I don't know why people try so hard to make heroes out of paid servants who easily dismiss people's rights in favor of their right to make money safely. How heroic of them. I say less pay and more scrutiny.