Officer's response to 911 call that wasn't made.

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With this assumption, wouldn't it be logical to set a civilian reveiw board completely independant of the police/mayor/DA to investigate alledged police misconduct? A check on the exective branch at the local level? Would it be such a bad idea for the citizens to be involved in the investigation of such incidents? Wouldn't it actually make the LEO's job a bit easier as when the people know there is a disinterested third party they can air their complaints too misconceptions and grudges can be aired and resolved instead of festering? In addition, the professionals would be cleared in a way no one, not even a loud mouth rebellious kid such as I, can claim cover-up?


i used to work for a large company that had a driver safety committee with no truck drivers on it.it was worthless
i think review is greatand i certainly support non cop involvement in it. but a strictly noncop review board makes as much sense as my reviewing brain surgery. further the unions would never allow it. in one area i know the union is so strong that a cop in a shooting has a 5 day period before he has to make a statement.
i've had 100's of interaction with cops more than 50 that ended with me in cuffs and my "peer group" had many more encounters. and its peculiar to me that i saw so lil misconduct. and lest one think i was in an area where they had a force with a good rep most of the encounters were in pg county md and dc
i think the mindset of some of the folk on here is precisely why the unions would oppose an all civilian review
 
Much easier said than done, unfortunately.
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It always is. But just because it's difficult to do doesn't mean we shouldn't. And it doesn't mean I should be forced to "believe" in a broken system. Or derided when I don't.

I think if everything was working the way it's supposed to, we would see a lot less bickering. And a lot less mistrust.

Back to the trust. Any officers here automatically trust a person you approach responding to a 911 call? No? Then I don't automatically trust you either. I not trying to be a d!ck, but fair is fair.
 
If they ask, "Mind if I have a look (in you car/house/etc) for my own safety?"
Just say "No".
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"No you don't mind? Great!"
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That's why we ask it that way...
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I don't know how or why anyone's let this slide. sacp81170a, you used the word "we." If you're truly a law enforcement officer, this is chilling to me. Because it speaks to the MINDSET of a an LEO. The MINDSET indicated here is that constitutional rights are just a pesky annoyance to be circumvented by trickery and deceptive wording. If an LEO will stoop to deception to circumvent the rights of a citizen, then what else will they do? What other abuses are waiting in the wings? The MINDSET indicated by this comment absolutely validates the concerns being raised here. Mentally, how far is this from lying that you heard someone crying through the door as a pretense for an illegal search? What lengths are you willing to go to for an illegal search? If he was a REALLY REALLY bad guy, and you were SURE of it, would you plant a lil green and leafy packaged for distribution in his car?

I don't think LEOs are like that. I have more faith in our LEOs than that, and realize that the bad apples in LE are prone to extensive sensationalism. I'm also aware that in most departments, they HATE the bad apples and will do damn near anything to get rid of them, because it makes their job harder. How many of you read sacp81170a's post and instantly became more suspicious of LE? I honestly HOPE sacp81170a isn't a real LEO.

Jeff, I'd love to hear your take on this.
 
I wish you could all go someplace where there were no police and it was every man for himself
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Been there, done that. I should qualify that - in Nigeria it's not that there aren't no police, the police are ineffective against determined criminals.

One guy in his castle? The thugs will bring 5. You've got 5 people? They'll bring 12. You've got a squad? They'll bring a platoon.

The numbers game above are all taken from real life examples, one case of private security being overwhelmed, another a squad of Nigerian army being wiped out by "militants" (read criminal gangs who bleat political reasons for their conduct). Go to allafrica and look around the site.

Man, they have AKs, GPMGs, even RPGs. And my company's installations have been attacked by squadrons of speedboats bearing all of the above weaponry. The Navy didn't do squat.

And the cops? Better have your wallet handy.

A society with no law and order is a hopeless cesspool.

You can't get much closer to a police state than this.
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I hope this statement is tongue in cheek. My best friend's mom was a young girl in Nazi Germany. You think Chicago cops are bad? Try the Gestapo. Try the Nazi police who summarily executed her baker's Dutch "guest worker" because the Dutchman was trying to help the baker's family flee the Russians. They had to roll their own Dutch worker, the brother of the slain one, up in a carpet to get him out of East Prussia. Why? Because the police would have executed him. Can you imagine traveling a hundred miles wrapped up in a carpet on a horse drawn wagon because the cops are going to kill you? Give this lady a martini and hear her stories.

And China? You know how in movies the secret agents or gangsters will go to a place with a lot of background noise so they can't be overheard? Let me tell you that's a very weird experience. I got to hear true stories of Tienanmen square while walking around a helicopter landing pad, keeping far away from other Chinese.

And I've seen Chinese cops grabbing people off the street and throwing them in a paddy wagon. Entering their places of work and grabbing them.

Police state? Thank your forefathers for English common law.
 
perpster said:
Much easier said than done, unfortunately.
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That's precisely the point. Assuming an imperfect (human) system, You can set up a system that optimizes for false negatives (we thought a crime was not in progress, but it was) or false positives (we thought a crime was in progress but it wasn't).

Given an imperfect system, I don't see that you have another logical choice.

So it's reasonable to analyze the choices. The reasonable question to me is, "What's the cost of being wrong? For each case?"

If you optimize for false negatives - in other words, you want officers to assume that there is no crime in progress when there is a 911 hang up, then the cost of being wrong is injury/death to officers and/or civilians. If whoever answers the door says, "No problem.", the officers walk away. Some of the time the person at the door will be lying and will continue the crime when the officers walk away.

If you optimize for false positives - in other words, you want officers to assume that there is a crime in progress when there is a 911 hang up, then the cost of being wrong is inconvenience to officers and/or civilians. If whoever answers the door says, "No problem", the officers try to verify their story. Some of the time the person at the door will be telling the truth and the officers will have looked around a house unnecessarily.

In general, as a society, we had decided that we want a law enforcement system that optimizes for false positives (investigate in case of doubt), and a legal system that optimized for false negatives (innocent until proven guilty).

It seems to me that there is a fundamental choice here. If you don't want officers investigating 911 hang ups, then you have to accept the injury/death of victims when a crime is not investigated. If you want officers investigating 911 hang ups, the you have to accept the the inconvenience to lawful citizens when a non-crime is investigated.

Which do you chose?

Mike
 
cassandrasdaddy,

Was the sarcasm icon in reference to my post? If sacp81170a's post was done in sarcasm, I completely missed it. And I'd love to hear him say so.
 
Hi Slugless,

Been there, done that. I should qualify that - in Nigeria it's not that there aren't no police, the police are ineffective against determined criminals.
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Unfortunately police are a necessary evil. As one poster put it a balancing act between the needs of a peaceful society and individual rights. Go too far in one direction and you have the old Soviet Union, too far in the other you have a fuedal system. Which in a way is why discussions such as these are so useful

I remember a story of someplace in the south that decided with the police on their side they could stop the blacks from voting. However, most of the black men in the area had just come back from a war and outnumbered the police and kluckers making their way to the ballot box with the cartridge box. True or not I have idea none. But the moral is simple, when the authorities know if they swing too far to one direction or another there will be consequences freedom is maintained.

Selena
 
Which do you chose?
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Personally, I choose fixing the system so rain doesn't call 911. I choose fixing the system so some punk-kid-hacker can't call 911 to a different address. I choose fixing the system so that a hang-up call is just exactly that. 911 was deliberately dialed then disconnected. Now you've got reasonable suspicion or probable cause.
 
FWIW, this "swatting", or spoofing caller-id / 911 information is TRIVIAL. You'll have a hard time finding a full description of it in the media for that reason. Most major outlets have decided going into any detail at all is irresponsible (my assumption) because even talking about it generally provides a how-to with five minutes and google. Plus, "hacked" is more sensational, but couldn't be further from the truth. ;)
 
Officer'sWife and others, you seem to have an idea that most police are power hungry individuals who were drawn to the field because of an internal desire to have power over others. That you put up with their existence and their power so long as you benefit. You called them a necessary "evil".

To be honest, that might be one of the most disrespectful and disgusting things I have read on this board. To call the very people who volunteer to be awake at night scuffling with the worst of the worst while you sleep in your safe home "evil" is just astounding.
 
"Maybe it would be easier if the responding officer knew for sure that an emergency call was made instead of trying to guess if it's real or is it one of the nine out of ten calls that's a fake. Take out that much guess work and I'll start to have a little more faith in "the system." But when it is openly admitted that it's broken? I have little to no faith in broken systems..."

I would love to be able to look into the future too. Or maybe even through walls. Yeah! That's it, cops should be able to look through walls to figure out what is going on in the house! That way no one would be bothered by a false 911 hangup.

I think that we should start a "Don't Bother Me" list, just like the "Do Not Call" list. You put your name on a list and if we get a 911 call from your house we don't waste your time checking on it. That way when you fail to keep your wife and daughter from being raped you cannot sue the police. I mean it would be a real problem for you if we kocked on the door while they were being raped and it was not you that called 911.

Akodo, I did not base that scenario off of any thing false. It happened in a town about three counties over from mine. Is your freedom from an officer checking to see that there are no criminals in your house worth more than your life? If you would really rather risk a murderer entering your home and fooling the police than have us search your home with a very very solid cause, I am thinking you are refering to probable cause, I hope you are never in a situation where it is needed. If you ever need the cops I hope they don't insult you when they save your life.

Just for reference, If I come to a house and have probable cause to search it and have no warrant, the friendly cop side of me goes away if you say no. KEEP IN MIND THAT I SAID I HAVE PROBABLE CAUSE. When I get the warrant it goes like this: Knock Knock, POLICE, SEARCH WARRANT!!! Ram hits the door, FLASH BANG, get on the floor get on the floor!!! At which point everyone is searched and charged if anything is found.

Basic point is this, IF YOU HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE OR THERE IS NO PROBLEM, DON'T BE AN ASS IF THE POLICE COME TO YOUR HOUSE ON A 911HANGUP CALL. We are after all here to protect everyone, even the ones that hate us.

And yes, I am a friendly cop. It took eight months for me to right twenty tickets. If I get out with a drunk in public I offer to take him home or to a motel before I think of arresting him. And, contrary to many member's belief, if I get out with some one who is carrying and has a permit, I do not take the gun and hold it till hell freezes over, like many of you think we do. I simply ask: "Where is the gun located on you and please keep your hands away from that location"

Siglite, I absoulutely agree with your post(#154) I am a cop and If he is I sure cannot see his mindset.

Taurusowner, great post and I thank you!!
 
Hi Officer's Wife,

You stated in an earlier post that your husband is Special Forces. If this is true, I cannot see how you have such a distrust for the U.S. government and LEO'S. After all, Special Forces are the "tip of the spear" for the government. They do things that would get them life in prison if it occured in the U.S. But there is that pesky double standard thing:)
 
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you are basing this scenario off of a false starting premise, that my safety from criminals is more important than my freedom.

you can lock us all up in golden cages full of luxury and insure our safety, but that isn't freedom.

Yes, I'd rather risk a muderer rushing in and fooling the police than allow police to search the home without very very solid cause.

How many other such scenarios can you cook up? Should I consent to police being able to search any vehicle any time they want because of the scenario of badguys kidnapping you and putting you in the truck as they drive out of town to execute you? "Too bad you don't let cops search cars whenever they want, that would have saved you in this very rare circumstance!"
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Do you REALLY mean that?

Have you ever been a victim of a violent crime? I don't mean your garden variety mugging, but a criminal act where you truly believe that you are living your last moments on this earth?

Have you ever been at the mercy of someone bigger and stronger than you are, who has beat you almost senseless?

Have you or anyone else you know been grabbed by the arm by someone who looks like a giant, who tried to drag you off the street, all the while stating their desire to rape you?

I'll tell you this; as a matter of fact, I'll tell you ALL this:

I have.

All of these happened to me, in the wonderful City of Chicago, BEFORE I WAS 12 YEARS OLD!

It's the reason I HATE bullies.

It's the reason I DESPISE rapists.

It's the reason I am a cop now. And every time I take scum off the streets--or out of a house, I feel like I have made a difference, no matter how small.

And when I get dispatched to a 911 hangup, you can bet I'll be alert. You can bet I'll dig. You can also put money on the FACT that I WILL NOT LEAVE THAT HOUSE until I am positive, 150%, that everything is OK.

And if I believe that someone is hurt inside, or in danger, I WILL, under the provisions of the law, force entry to render aid.

Some of you have the opinion that you can stop an officer who is working under those circumstances. You have a much better chance of stopping a freight train moving at 90 mph with your bare hands.

And, what if I'm wrong? Then I'll take my lumps, thank you very much. But I'd be happy seeing you alive to complain about me.

Consider this, though: You, laying on a floor, beaten to a pulp, watching as your only hope to make it through the night--or day--turns and walks away.

How do you feel now?
 
Good post, Powderman. I too do not leave the house until I am sure everyone is O.K.

People like to complain about cops being on power trips, just getting a government paycheck, until they need us. Then if we do not get there fast enough they bash us for that and say "Where were you when I needed you?"

The solution is pretty darn clear to me, "You look after your's and I will look after mine" That way, the police will not be to blame for any of the problems of the goverment. After all, there will be no cops then and you can feel safe in your home.
 
That way when you fail to keep your wife and daughter from being raped you cannot sue the police.
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Moot point OPD. SCOTUS has upheld multiple times that LE has no obligation to protect you. If they don't show up, they're not liable. You'd lose your civil suit anyway.
 
TexasRifleman: The click method has been dead for at least 10 years except in the absolute sticks.
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When you say “click method” are you referring to taping the hook switch or to impulse dialing (the old rotary dial type)?

Impulse dialing is still alive and well around here. I collect antique telephones and they all work flawlessly. I haven’t tried the old “hook switch tap” method since I was a kid.

TelCo’s aren’t all that quick to update. The last Crossbar 5 switch in the U.S. was removed about 10 years ago in Brooklyn, NY.
 
Siglite, did you even read the whole post? I was simply stating that if you don't like police then you should sign a "waiver" to keep us from protecting you. If you put your name on the list you can just protect yourself, I won't respond with any amount of urgency if you cal 911. But don't blame me if you are on this list and get your ass whipped and there is not a cop in sight.
 
From some real life experience

I spent 26+ yesrs in law enforcement in southern CA. Responded to probably 10k 911 calls, yes most are not emergencies.

The list of why 911 is called is endless. People buy cheap cordless made in china crap phones that when their batterys go low call 911. Or people program 911 as #1 on the speed dial. Is 911 really that much harder to dial than #1? I guess. The phones are left everywhere and if the 1 is hit, 911 is called and then "noises"are heard. And cops show up. Computers hooked to the phone call 911, computer glitch, power problem, I dunno they just do. FAX machines call 911, why, again I dunno. Water during a rain storm gets into a junction box down the block, 911 is called. Payphones call 911, again why, I don't know.

When I was sent of these calls, I usually woke the homeowner up, he/she is pissed at me, as if I had any say in the matter. When they deny calling 911which was usually true, right there in front of them I called on the portable to the dispatcher and asked her to repeat the callback number on the 911. When the homowner hears their own phone number come out of the radio, they usually apologized and I apologized and went on my way.

However if it 2am and they are wide awake and I do the radio dispatcher thing and then ask, "could anyone else in your home have called sir?" And he does not go and ask the wife I'm suspicious. May I speak to your wife sir? If the answer is no, Now I'm more suspicious.

If I get the defender of the home attitude, you have no right to be here etc..., that was ok too, I call real loud into the house, "this is the police ma'am are you ok?" that usually gets some type of response. And for all you "where's your warrant?" guys. In every state in the union a police officer can enter w/out a warrant in an exigent circumstance. When I felt someone was lying I was polite but persistent. "Sir I'll be on my way if I may speak with your wife/girlfriend, otherwise, this will be a long night." As the guy thinks it over I had dispatch pull up a call history at the address, prior 911, Domestic Violence, drunks fights, whatever. And any reports taken there as well as the utilities record, now I have names/address/dates of birth, drivers license numbers, the information availableis endless if you persue it.

What I'm trying to get across is that its not a vast law enforcement plan to go to your house at midnight to "look around". A search warrant is fairly easy to obtain if needed, did it many times. And if one is needed they are in a computer program at the station, call the watch Sgt. fill out the blanks, call the on-call magistrate, they give the ok, and the electronic signature is done, and the cops are in.

The 911 system screws up, just lkie your cell phone does, so if the cops are at the door asking who called 911, be polite ask them what number called, see if its yours, or your FAX machine. And please secure the dog. I have a 117lb Rottweiler and a kennel, everyone with a dog should have a kennel. Thats where she is when strangers are in the house that I have invited. If they are not invited, she's laying on my bed.
 
To be honest, that might be one of the most disrespectful and disgusting things I have read on this board. To call the very people who volunteer to be awake at night scuffling with the worst of the worst while you sleep in your safe home "evil" is just astounding.
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Funny, I think the doctors are a necessary evil.

Funny, I think the government is a necessary evil.

Funny, I think the entire military is a necessary evil.

And yes, I do think the police are a necessary evil.

Simply because the job is something that we would be better off if we did not need it does not mean that we think police officers/doctors/soldiers are evil. Maybe the politicians though.

Is our society so hooked on our emotions that people cannot recognize the difference between a statement of the problems in society that require that we have some enforcement arm and calling people evil?

Here's a few more for you:
Brushing your teeth is a necessary evil. Dentists are a necessary evil. Oil Changes are a necessary evil. Stoplights are a necessary evil. Vaccinations are a necessary evil. Physicals are a necessary evil. Lawyers are evil, I mean a necessary evil. Get the idea? Calling jobs a necessary evil does not mean that those who do them are themselves evil.
 
911 hangup calls.

The difference in perspective on this topic is amazing.

Actually, it's rather disconcerting. Being aware and skeptical is one thing, and being paranoid is quite another . . . just because you don't understand something doesn't mean there's some kind of government conspiracy -- it just means that you're uninformed, and probably don't have as much "street sense" as you think you do.

As a police officer, I go to 911 hangup calls fairly frequently. It used to happen more often. Lots of wireless phones used to randomly dial 911 for some reason when the batteries got low. It doesn't seem to happen as much as it used to.

There were a number of people who responded to this discussion who were cops or communications operators who are actually familiar with the dynamics of this common situation just explained the way it was. And the people who were NOT familiar with the reality of it often times tended to paranoid interpretations of events. If you aren't familiar with something, it doesn't make you a bad person, but know what you don't know!

Most of the 911 disconnect calls I've been to were caused by kids playing with the phone, a low battery on the wireless phone, somebody making an error trying to program the phone, or bumping the "emergency" or "911" button by mistake without even knowing it. A few times it was because there was a domestic disturbance going on, and all the victim could do was get to the phone and call 911 before their significant other took the phone away or tore it off the wall . . .

A tip to the unaware or unfamiliar in dealing with the police: first of all, know who the police are! Know the difference between the city police, the county sheriff's department and the state troopers. They have slightly different but overlapping jurisdictions. Their cars are probably painted differently and they probably have different colored uniforms. Know who your primary service provider is!If you live near the border of your jurisdiction, know what the uniforms and the squad cars of the neighboring town look like. That isn't too hard -- just pay attention when driving around on your normal business, and then remember what you see. Neighboring jurisdictions back each other up all the time, and if one agency gets tied up on a major incident, the department next door may end up being primary responders to calls in your town. It happens all the time, and it is NOT evidence of a particular emergency nor of a government conspiracy . . .

If you live in the village of Hickory Hills and the Communications Center gets a 911 disconnect from your house, you may get the Hickory Hills PD or the Sheriff's Department or the State Police or cops from the next town or village over, depending upon the situation. It's not at all unusual.

Any time you interact with the police, be truthful, don't have an attitude nor appear to be concealing information and your day will go a lot smoother. Almost always when we (the cops) encounter somebody with a belligerant attitude, it's because they're trying to hide something. You don't have to offer information, but answer the legitimate questions that you are asked. If you appear to be trying to hide something, cops treat that the same way that sharks treat the smell of blood in the water . . .

Pay attention to what agency the officer works for, and ask for their name and badge number or radio number or ID number. We get issued business cards to give to people we interact with. Get a business card from officer friendly and ask for the case number of the incident (if there is one), the address of occurance and the case title, and write down the date. That way, if at some later time you need to make an inquiry or make a complaint, you'll have the information that you need.
 
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