Officer's response to 911 call that wasn't made.

[ilbob]

Are these comments truly relevent to gun-related general discussion? Certain members seem to really enjoy posting comments pertaining to LEO misconduct in almost every type of thread. Does this really further the purpose of RKBA discussion?

The original post had nothing to do with guns either.

I find the back and forth informative. Very few people realize how very limited their rights are.

Whether it furthers the purpose of the RTKBA depends on your POV. Until you understand just how far your other rights have been suppressed you may not be in a position to see how far your RTKBA has been suppressed.

I am a skeptic of government, as most of us are, or should be at least. LE is the enforcement arm of government. That means you have to be skeptical of LE in general. They are there to further the aims of government, not individuals.

It does always seem to boil down to an us versus them thing though. Thats unfortunate, and maybe it should not be that way, but long history has shown that government unchecked will violate your rights. At some point you have to stand up against it, or the situation will not improve.

 

[ilbob]

What???? I spend all day stomping on the constitution and all you offer me is a light beer???!!!

How about a St Pauli Girl dark instead?

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi Ilbob,

It does always seem to boil down to an us versus them thing though. Thats unfortunate, and maybe it should not be that way, but long history has shown that government unchecked will violate your rights.

The Founders in their wisdom set us up with an advesarial justice system. 'Us v. them' is the definition not what it seems to be.

Selena

 

[ilbob]

The Founders in their wisdom set us up with an advesarial justice system. 'Us v. them' is the definition not what it seems to be.

True. It is sad that in many areas of the country the average citizen fears the cops almost as much as he fears the criminals though.

It would be nice if cops could somehow be our buddies while still being LEOs. But it can't work that way.

 

[Old Dog]

Until you understand just how far your other rights have been suppressed you may not be in a position to see how far your RTKBA has been suppressed.

Well, ilbob, some of us have a pretty good grasp on just how much our rights have been "suppressed." And some of us also see the big picture pretty clearly. It's all relative, I suppose, and the only statement you've made I agree with is when you say that it "depends on your POV." Some of us have actually been around the block a time or two. With a double-major (from a liberal state university, no less) in political science (emphasis on Constitutional Law) and history, more'n twenty years active duty military with experience living in countries where one's rights are truly suppressed, and more'n a few years in both corrections and law enforcement ... I'm a skeptic, too ... of folks who see only problems or focus on isolated cases, can't follow trends of improvement (shall-issue concealed carry laws or sunsetting of the '94 AWB for example) and never seem to propose solutions or even general ideas for improving on every negative situation they seem to believe supports their position that everything is getting worse ...

It is sad that in many areas of the country the average citizen fears the cops almost as much as he fears the criminals though.

Oh, c'mon now. Support this, please. "Fears" the cops? The average citizen?

 

[Officers'Wife]

HI Ilbob,

True. It is sad that in many areas of the country the average citizen fears the cops almost as much as he fears the criminals though.

Government operate on fear, one of the first acts of the federal government was to send in troops to smash a protest against the taxing of whiskey. No branch of government is designed to be our friend, no branch is designed to protect the individual. The government's only aim is the seizing of more power, the individual's duty is to prevent them from grabbing too much. The police are an evil, albeit a necessary one. Much in the line of the fable of the shepard that got a large mean dog to protect his sheep from wolves. He decided since he had the dog he no longer had to watch the sheep and went to do other things. The dog, of course, ate all the sheep. The police are our mean dog, unfortunately- we are the sheep.

Selena

 

[RPCVYemen]

The Founders in their wisdom set us up with an advesarial justice system.

What you say is true - but I think it's only part of the story.

I benefit by the actions of the police - I really want them to fully investigate any 911 call that is reported to come from my house. If they get a call that someone's come in the back window of my house - I really, really want them doing the sweep. I sure ain't qualified.

Here's a clearer example. A long time ago, I used to hitchhike a lot. I was in school in NC, and had buddies in Memphis and NYC. I'd have a beer or two and decide to hit the road. In those day, if you hitchhiked, you had fairly constant contact with the police. They might ask you for ID, search you, etc.

That seems like a clearly adversarial role.

But - and this was a big but - I really, really wanted them doing that.

Why? Would I rather meet some escaped convict under a bridge abutment at 3:00 AM, or have the police pick him up first? The answer was pretty obvious to me.

In fact, I probably benefited more from their stopping and questioning hitchhikers than the non-hitchhikers on the road ! Why - I was more vulnerable than people in metal and steel boxes speeding along.

I am very, very happy the police were out there doing that job. Hitchhiking isn't like a plane/train schedule. If someone had decided to kill me, it would be day until anyone realized I was missing, and in all likelihood my body would never have been found.

In truth, I never provoked a confrontation, and never did anything stupid like carry dope while I was hitching. Most of the time, after a short conversation, I was on my way. One time I had to sit in a police car for about an hour - because there was a murder suspect in the area. But that was fine. If there is a murder suspect on the road, where's the safest place to be? I'll let you pick - under a bridge abutment, or in the front seat of a police car. My money is on the front seat of a police car.

So while the court system is adversarial, I don't buy that the law enforcement system is adversarial (or only adversarial).

Mike

 

[RPCVYemen]

It is sad that in many areas of the country the average citizen fears the cops almost as much as he fears the criminals though.

I really want to see some support for this, too. Quotes from Al Sharpton won't be enough - I want to see evidence that the average citizen fears the police almost as much as he fears the criminals.

Mike

BTW - I am not trying to inject a racial element here. It happens that the only person I have ever heard make that claim was Rev. Sharpton.

 

[Checkman]

Officer's wife.

Based on your handle and your tank comment am I to assume you are married to an officer in the military? Possibly an armor officer? If so do you appreciate the irony? Many look upon the military the same way. Or perhaps you hate the military or you have no involvement with the military.

If this is the case disregard my clever ironic observation.

 

[Deanimator]

Oh, c'mon now. Support this, please. "Fears" the cops? The average citizen?

I think he exaggerates the extent of such feelings, but it's clearly there in specific locales, Chicago and New Orleans in particular.

Most of the Chicagoans I know have as little to do with the Chicago PD as possible. Very few of them have had positive experiences with them. And that's when they were the VICTIMS of crimes, not suspects. I've personally seen the Chicago PD simply pack up and leave when informed that they were called because White youths were engaged in criminal activity in a majority Black neighborhood. They're frequently hostile, arrogant, aggressive and act as though they are in a class above the citizens. As noted elsewhere, check out http://secondcitycop.blogspot.com for their attitudes toward the public, in their own words.

Given their histories, it's hardly surprising that people would want nothing to do with the Chicago or New Orleans PDs.

 

[ilbob]

In those day, if you hitchhiked, you had fairly constant contact with the police. They might ask you for ID, search you, etc.

That seems like a clearly adversarial role.

But - and this was a big but - I really, really wanted them doing that.

If you really, really wanted them doing that, that is a personal choice. It should not be forced on everyone who does not make that choice.

 

[ilbob]

Oh, c'mon now. Support this, please. "Fears" the cops? The average citizen?

I think he exaggerates the extent of such feelings, but it's clearly there in specific locales, Chicago and New Orleans in particular.

How about a thought experiment.

You are driving down the road minding your own business, not bothering anyone, not violating the speed limit or any other law as far as you know. You pass a cop on the side of the road. He pulls out behind you and turns on his lights.

Since you were not committing any crime, obviously the cop is after you for some other reason.

 

[Old Dog]

You're really stretching now, bob.

 

[DragonFire]

You are driving down the road minding your own business, not bothering anyone, not violating the speed limit or any other law as far as you know. You pass a cop on the side of the road. He pulls out behind you and turns on his lights.

Since you were not committing any crime, obviously the cop is after you for some other reason.

Nevermind the obvious that he wouldn't pull you over for NO reason.

Supposed you are inadvertanly speeding? Or there's a APB for a car like yours for a robbery or hit an run? Or you have a tail-light out? Or some other reason.

I wouldn't be happy to be pulled over, but I can't say I would be afraid. I've had contact with my share of cops who were idiots, or who were on power trips (though probably less than I have "regular" idots and power-mongers). Not once was I ever afraid of them, or what they would do to me. Nor did I eve think a cop "was out to get me".

On a couple of the few tickets I've gotten, the cops have actually minimized the infractions, and given me advice on how to lessen my fines.

 

[Deanimator]

Since you were not committing any crime, obviously the cop is after you for some other reason.

But you don't know what that reason is. How I react depends upon where I am.

Rocky River, OH - I'm not worried that he's going to rob or murder me. I answer whatever questions he has to the extent to which I'm required by law. I'm polite but not overly friendly. Of course I'm that way with all strangers. I don't consent to any searches. I NEVER consent to ANY searches.

Chicago, IL - I don't pull over until I'm in a well lit area with witnesses, and preferably one likely to have surveillance cameras. I refuse ALL conversation with him. I limit myself to the minimum interaction permitted by law. I am prepared for the possibility that he may commit a violent crime against me. I must decide whether I will attempt to defend myself. If I feel that my life is in imminent danger from his unlawful action, I will do ANYTHING necessary to protect myself.

All police departments and police officers are NOT the same.

 

[DrewH]

I lived in Chicago for several years as a college student and didn't particularly fear the Chicago PD. Didn't have many interactions with them, but I was in a car with friends stopped and detained by CPD officers (for an illegal U-turn in a mighty beat up old car) and the interaction was perfectly reasonable and polite.

I accidentally called 911 once (not in Chicago, in Alexandria, VA) and police came to my house (as I hope they would) and they, after seeing I was OK, left without going in the house. Again perfectly professional, polite conversation.

Reading these posts, it sure seems the police are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Remember when the police visited Jaffrey Dahmer's (the cannibalistic killer) apartment in, I think, Milwaukee, and left after determining (incorrectly) things were fine? I don't recall the aftermath but I think the officers may have been fired. It's just part of their duties to make sure things are OK after receiving a 911 call.

A large number of people on this board seem have a strongly antagonistic attitude towards government in general and the police. My experience is that is much less true of the average citizen, and I am thankful for that.

 

[DrewH]

Oops, double post

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi Checkman

The tank comment is from a rather embarrassing circumstance I laugh at myself about. My Husband is Special Forces and not in armor.

If so do you appreciate the irony? Many look upon the military the same way. Or perhaps you hate the military or you have no involvement with the military.

No, I have no hatred of the military anymore than I do law enforcement. As for the irony, leaf through the literature from the time of the founding and you will see that most of the Fathers believed a standing army to be the greatest danger to liberty. Thus their plan for reliance on militia's and one of the principles behind the Second Amendment. And if you are tempted to tell me the National Guard is the militia remember Jay (I believe, possibly Franklin) forbade the use of militia outside the state lines of where that militia was formed. I won't bother with the time differential as it's overused.

As well, our military has far more overseers than, say BATF. Just as an example, had it been Marine or SF sniper's at Ruby Ridge do you really believe the troops would have gotten commendations as the FBI personnel did? Or if 101st troops and tanks had be at Waco would the troops not have been tried as BATF?

Or going back into ancient times, when the vote for tribal council was interfered with by armed agents of the United States and the American Indian Movement staged a protest at Wounded Knee. Who was involved in the seige? As a hint the Commander of the 82th Airborne was invited to help.

Selena

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi Ilbob,

True. It is sad that in many areas of the country the average citizen fears the cops almost as much as he fears the criminals though.

I don't think it would be fear as much as disgust. Of the police I've been around (discounting my brother in law who I will not make comments about ) for every one that appeared to have his mind on the job at hand there are seven that are condesending, rude or just plain arrogant. When the employees consider themselves better than those they are working for it's time for a change.

Selena

 

[ilbob]

When the employees consider themselves better than those they are working for it's time for a change.

Keep in mind they do not work for us, they work for some government entity.

 

[Checkman]

Officer's Wife

Okay. I spent fourteen years in the green machine (eight on active and the rest in the NG and Reserve). I was armor, signal corp and military intelligence on active duty. No Special Forces, just plain old line troops.

I've been a cop for the past seven years. I can't speak for the Federal side of law enforcement and I have no knowledge about the Chicago PD beyond what I read in the news or find on the Internet.

However since this thread began about responses to 911 let me assure you that I have yet to see a Federal agent or a Chicago City police officer responding to a 911 call in my city. So I can only speak from my experience.

In the past seven years I've forced, i.e. kicked, open a door while responding to a 911 call twice. The first time the neighbors stated that they had witnessed a man and woman fighting and the man was seen dragging the woman into the house. We got no response to our repeated knocking and pounding and the house was dark and quiet. I kicked the door and the husband was arrested for Domestic Battery.

Approximately five weeks ago I responded to another 911 call in which the neighbor said her next door neighbors were fighting in the yard, broke sa window then went inside. It was nighttime and raining. I arrive on scene and I immediately observed blood smeared on the front door, the house and the broken window. Once again we got no response. So I once again kicked open the door.

The woman's boyfriend was hiding in the attic. He was arrested for Domestic Battery. The woman's twenty year old son had an arrest warrant and also went to jail. As crazy as it sounds the woman was belligerent and violent towards me so she went to jail for Resisting and Obstructing.

The 911 disconnects I handle this way

Hi we got a 911 call from here. Is everything okay? (Lets assume they say it is). Okay well for peace of mind can I can in and just look around. As hard as it sounds folks sometimes lie to us. If they say yes I walk in, look around (I don't care about paraphernalia in that case), thank them and leave. If they so no I explain to them that if anything is wrong let me know now. If they say it's okay I leave. My hands are clean at that point.

I've even gone as far as tell some known dopers that I don't care if I see anything (give them a knowing look), but I need to make sure everyone is okay. Usually they let me in and I stay true to my word as it regards pipes etc.

Trust me. I have many overseers. Many many overseerers. Here in my town (hey we're CPD also) we don't just roll from one felony/misdemeanor to another. Honest.

Hey would I lie? I'm a cop. Ooops.

 

[Deanimator]

I lived in Chicago for several years as a college student and didn't particularly fear the Chicago PD.

I grew up in Chicago and spent all of my life there until I went to college and became an Army officer.

The Chicago PD is systemically corrupt and brutal. The entire system is broken, from the top on down.

The last Police Superintendent overruled a disciplinary board and gave an officer a THIRTY DAY SUSPENSION for blowing off the head of an unarmed, unthreatening man. The officer has since admitted under oath that the shooting was UNJUSTIFIED.

Until recently, there was a home invasion, burglary, kidnapping ring operating INSIDE the Chicago PD. The unit in which the ring operated was so compromised that it has since been disbanded.

A cop who savagely beat a barmaid for refusing to serve him, then threatened to frame her and several others if she didn't drop the charges, was first charged with a MISDEMEANOR. He has since been shown preferential treatment by police on multiple occasions. While suspended, he is STILL a Chicago police officer.

Chicago police officers were recently videotaped stealing from boxcars in a rail yard.

Chicago police officers responding to 911 calls of a bar fight in which cops savagely beat several citizens allowed themselves to be waived off by the perpetrators.

The Chicago PD for years ran a torture chamber that made Abu Ghraib look like Sandals resort. The city is paying all of the legal bills for the man who ran it. Mayor Daley was State's Attorney during the worst of the torture, and prosecuted suspects based on confessions obtained under torture. City lawyers are acting in effect as his personal attorneys.

I could go on, but you get the picture.

The Chicago PD is rotten to the core, always has been, and probably always will be, since the people seem to like it that way. It is simply irredeemably evil.

 

[ilbob]

Remember when the police visited Jaffrey Dahmer's (the cannibalistic killer) apartment in, I think, Milwaukee, and left after determining (incorrectly) things were fine? I don't recall the aftermath but I think the officers may have been fired. It's just part of their duties to make sure things are OK after receiving a 911 call.

IIRC, they did not follow department policy because they thought what was going on was some kind of homosexual love fest. I don't recall they were fired though.

 

[ilbob]

Chicago police officers were recently videotaped stealing from boxcars in a rail yard.

can't forget the chief of detectives that was running a burglary/fencing operation out of his office.

i really have some sympathy for honest Chicago cops. there are bound to be a lot of them, and they are in a no win situation.

that does not mean I wish to take on extra risk when encountering them.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi Ilbob,

Keep in mind they do not work for us, they work for some government entity.

In the US the government (and entities thereof) derive their power from the governed. Despite what Clinton and company would like you to believe the Constitution does not grant you right, it takes away rights by granting certain and precisely defined powers to the government.