Oh no, not another wet tumbling thread

[vaalpens]

I have not cleaned any brass for a while, but yesterday I had to pull out the FART and clean some 9mm brass. After getting ready I realized that I can't remember exactly what I used the last time. I remember I used dishwashing liquid and/or car wash and wax, plus some Lemi Shine, but couldn't remember any of the details.

So I decided to go the wash and wax route with Lemi Shine. The following went into the tumbler:
2 Caps of wash and wax, 9mm case Lemi Shine, +- 1k 9mm dirty cases, hot tap water up to the neck, and the 5lb SS pins.

After running the tumbler for 2.5 hours, I couldn't believe the results. The cases were dull, looked tarnished, and started getting the blackish color.

They were definitely clean and I could have used them to reload, but I decided I need to figure out what happened. I wasn't sure if I did not have enough soap, or maybe too much Lemi Shine, so I decided to try the other soap. This is what went into the tumbler:

About 3 squirts of Palmolive dishwashing liquid, about as much as for dishes, half a 9mm case Lemi Shine, +- 1k 9mm tarnished cases, hot tap water up to the neck, and the 5lb SS pins.

Because I wasn't sure if the previous results were due to the soap or lemi shine, I decide to run the tumbler just over 1 hour, to see if the results were improving, stayed the same, or getting worse.

After the hour, the water was still nice and soapy, and when I emptied the FART I could see some dirty water again, and the cases were getting to the nice and shiny look. The cases were not perfect yet, but much better than before. So I decide to stop while I was ahead, and put the cases into the ready to load rotation.

I am just posting this thread to hopefully help somebody else running into the same issue. It seemed to me that maybe I did not have enough soap during the first attempt, but at least now I know I'll probably go back to the dishwashing liquid and a little bit of lemi shine. Next time I will probably measure how much dishwashing liquid I use, and then write it down.

Probably the moral of the story is that, do not just keep record of your loads, but also keep record of your procedures, including the cleaning part of it.

 

[jmorris]

A Sharpie is handy for just such a thing.

 

[lightman]

Every great once in a while I will have a batch come out gray and dull looking. Its kind of frustrating! I use 2 caps full of ArmorAll Wash and Wax and a 38 Super case of LemiShine with 5+ pounds of pins in a 15# drum. You want enough soap in the drum to still have suds when you open it. When this happens I just tumble the media for an hour with Dawn and start over.

I can't prove it because I haven't compared them back to back but I think my brass comes out cleaner with Dawn than it does with the wash and wax. But the wash and wax leaves a protective coating that doesn't tarnish.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

@Dudedog has used Armor All wash and wax for a long time. Maybe he could drop in to try to help. I use an US cleaner so I'm not the one you need to talk to. But if I had to guess, the pins were dirty and needed cleaned before you tried to clean cases in it.
He is better qualified to answer than I am though.

 

[Blue68f100]

Depending on your water hardness you may have added too much LimiShine. The soap/wax only comes into play if you don't use enough and everything is comes out coated with a black film. Using extra is just insurance that it suspends all of the dirt.

My water is so bad I have to add 1 tbs full of LimiShine. When I was on well water which was acidic it only needed 1/2 tsp.

 

[MakBaba]

Decap first. Squirt of Dawn and hot water for 15 min. Dump dirty water. Squirt of Dawn, pinch of LemiShine (optional, but does give a noticeable shine) and hot water.
I've got it in my head that the pins grind in the dirt after a certain point. Who knows? But this works for me and the cases look like new.

 

[horsemen61]

Ttrl

 

[vaalpens]

Decap first. Squirt of Dawn and hot water for 15 min. Dump dirty water. Squirt of Dawn, pinch of LemiShine (optional, but does give a noticeable shine) and hot water.
I've got it in my head that the pins grind in the dirt after a certain point. Who knows? But this works for me and the cases look like new.

With my dry medium tumbler I used to wash it first, then tumbled, but with the wet I never did. Do you use SS pins at all?

 

[vaalpens]

Depending on your water hardness you may have added too much LimiShine. The soap/wax only comes into play if you don't use enough and everything is comes out coated with a black film. Using extra is just insurance that it suspends all of the dirt.

My water is so bad I have to add 1 tbs full of LimiShine. When I was on well water which was acidic it only needed 1/2 tsp.

Thanks for the comments. This was my thinking also. Not enough soap and too much lemi shine. The second batch I did was ,ore soap and less lemi shine.

 

[vaalpens]

@Dudedog has used Armor All wash and wax for a long time. Maybe he could drop in to try to help. I use an US cleaner so I'm not the one you need to talk to. But if I had to guess, the pins were dirty and needed cleaned before you tried to clean cases in it.
He is better qualified to answer than I am though.

Thanks. The pins looked clean before and after, so I don't think it was a dirty pin issue.

Dudedog will probably lecture me this time since he has tried to explain it to me and the forum members, plenty times already.

 

[vaalpens]

Every great once in a while I will have a batch come out gray and dull looking. Its kind of frustrating! I use 2 caps full of ArmorAll Wash and Wax and a 38 Super case of LemiShine with 5+ pounds of pins in a 15# drum. You want enough soap in the drum to still have suds when you open it. When this happens I just tumble the media for an hour with Dawn and start over.

I can't prove it because I haven't compared them back to back but I think my brass comes out cleaner with Dawn than it does with the wash and wax. But the wash and wax leaves a protective coating that doesn't tarnish.

Thanks for the comments. I probably used a combination of the dishwashing liquid and wash and wax the last time. The bottom line is, make sure you have enough soap.

 

[vaalpens]

A Sharpie is handy for just such a thing.

Correct. A sharper memory will also help, but at my age, the sharpie is probably the solution.

 

[Zygodactyl]

I just use a few capfuls of the Frankford brass cleaning solution for sonic cleaners. It works great in the rotary tumbler with SS pins. Brass always comes out clean and shiny.

 

[MakBaba]

With my dry medium tumbler I used to wash it first, then tumbled, but with the wet I never did. Do you use SS pins at all?

Yes. I replaced half of the pins that came with the tumbler with Southern Shine chips. Easy to separate with panning screens from Amazon. If I had it to do again I would just stick with the supplied pins. The chips seem to get everywhere. They definitely speed the cleaning time but add a bit of hassle factor.
Tried no pins. Didn’t like the results

 

[Kra961]

Using the FART Tsp of either dawn or car wash and 1/2 tsp lemishine really hot water, pins help if the brass is really bad and 30-40 mins tumbled. Drain rinse off and into the oven @190 or 200 for an hour, pins take longer once the brass is dry pull them out set the pins to 350 15 mins or so.

‘I’ve never gone longer the 40 mins washing the brass it doesn’t take much to raise the ph to acidic with the small amount of water in the fart the brass quickly reacts to the acidic ph of the water.

 

[vaalpens]

Yes. I replaced half of the pins that came with the tumbler with Southern Shine chips. Easy to separate with panning screens from Amazon. If I had it to do again I would just stick with the supplied pins. The chips seem to get everywhere. They definitely speed the cleaning time but add a bit of hassle factor.
Tried no pins. Didn’t like the results

Thanks for the info. My process of separating the pins from the brass takes a bit of time, but it is not that bad. I do sort by headstamp after the cleaning, and that is where I sometimes find pins stuck in the flash hole. This weekend only one case had 2 pins stuck in the flash hole.

 

[vaalpens]

I just use a few capfuls of the Frankford brass cleaning solution for sonic cleaners. It works great in the rotary tumbler with SS pins. Brass always comes out clean and shiny.

I remember the solution that came with the FART worked well, but we always try to find something that is always available in the house, and maybe cheaper.

 

[vaalpens]

Using the FART Tsp of either dawn or car wash and 1/2 tsp lemishine really hot water, pins help if the brass is really bad and 30-40 mins tumbled. Drain rinse off and into the oven @190 or 200 for an hour, pins take longer once the brass is dry pull them out set the pins to 350 15 mins or so.

‘I’ve never gone longer the 40 mins washing the brass it doesn’t take much to raise the ph to acidic with the small amount of water in the fart the brass quickly reacts to the acidic ph of the water.

Thanks for the comments. I just have a question:

it doesn’t take much to raise the ph to acidic

Are you raising or lowering the ph to acidic? I thought the lower ph is more acidic.

The key seems to keep the lemishine usage to a minimum since it has some citric acid in it. More is not always better.

 

[Kra961]

Thanks for the comments. I just have a question:


Are you raising or lowering the ph to acidic? I thought the lower ph is more acidic.

The key seems to keep the lemishine usage to a minimum since it has some citric acid in it. More is not always better.

LOL of course you are correct, my bad….What I meant to type and what I actually type don’t always meet in the middle. (Sigh)

 

[Dudedog]

The bottom line is, make sure you have enough soap.

YES!

I use wash and wax and citric acid.
(lemishine=citric acid but a 2 lb bag of acid on Amazon is cheaper ~$15 and 2lbs should last a long time))

https://www.amazon.com/Milliard-Citric-Acid-Pound-VERIFIED/dp/B00EYFKM32/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=OYXOKNVXE9QV&keywords=citric+acid&qid=1658768173&sprefix=citric+acid,aps,311&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFEVDVZRFk0WDRPTVgmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAzMTg4NTQyMVM1UEg3RDJZSEw1JmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTEwRTM1OEtIVEkySUUmd2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl


The amount of citric acid is important, to much is bad, how much depends on your water PH, for me somewhere around a .45 case full.

I think probably your issue was not enough soap/wash and wax.
Within reason you can't put in to much soap so be generous.
With wash and wax I don't measure I just give it a "dollop" say about 2-3 oz.
I use whatever wash and wax the car is getting, and the car gets what's on sale which usually seem to be Turtle, but I have used 3 or 4 flavors and all seem about the same.

If it is really dirty brass it helps to run it about 1/2 hour then do a water/cleaning solution change.

 

[Rule3]

There are several Lemi Shine products. For citric acid be sure to use the Booster

https://lemishine.com/products/dish-detergent-booster

 

[vaalpens]

LOL of course you are correct, my bad….What I meant to type and what I actually type don’t always meet in the middle. (Sigh)

Not a problem. We all know what you meant. I had to go and read up on ph levels again.

 

[vaalpens]

YES!

I use wash and wax and citric acid.
(lemishine=citric acid but a 2 lb bag of acid on Amazon is cheaper ~$15 and 2lbs should last a long time))

https://www.amazon.com/Milliard-Citric-Acid-Pound-VERIFIED/dp/B00EYFKM32/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=OYXOKNVXE9QV&keywords=citric+acid&qid=1658768173&sprefix=citric+acid,aps,311&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFEVDVZRFk0WDRPTVgmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAzMTg4NTQyMVM1UEg3RDJZSEw1JmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTEwRTM1OEtIVEkySUUmd2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl


The amount of citric acid is important, to much is bad, how much depends on your water PH, for me somewhere around a .45 case full.

I think probably your issue was not enough soap/wash and wax.
Within reason you can't put in to much soap so be generous.
With wash and wax I don't measure I just give it a "dollop" say about 2-3 oz.
I use whatever wash and wax the car is getting, and the car gets what's on sale which usually seem to be Turtle, but I have used 3 or 4 flavors and all seem about the same.

If it is really dirty brass it helps to run it about 1/2 hour then do a water/cleaning solution change.

Thanks Dudedog. My apologies for pulling you into another wet tumbling discussion.

With wash and wax I don't measure I just give it a "dollop" say about 2-3 oz.

So, will that be ounces in weight, or fluid ounces? (sorry, I couldn't resist)

It looks like I was definitely low on the wash and wax. The 2 caps are maybe 2 tablespoons, where I should have been between 4 and 6 tablespoons.

How do you know when you are low on the lemi shine/citric acid?

 

[thump_rrr]

I am currently testing rifle loads and I may do away with wet tumbling for rifle cartridges if my test goes the way I think it will.

Last weekend I wanted to go out and try a new scope I bought for my 6.5 Creedmoor.
I didn't have any clean brass so I loaded up 30 rounds of dirty brass for a ladder test.
I brushed out the necks and primer pockets, chamfered and deburred as I normally do, ran them through my sizer and then loaded them up.
I've never encountered lower ES and SD than I have with this dirty brass. ES as low as 1.6 for a 3 shot group.
I will try to do a controlled test in 2 weeks when I come back from vacation to see if I can prove or disprove my theory.
I will shoot (6) 5 round groups instead of (10) 3round groups. I will also shoot brass from the same lot that is cleaned in SS pins against it to see any differences.
I will create a separate thread to post my results.

 

[Dudedog]

Thanks Dudedog. My apologies for pulling you into another wet tumbling discussion.

No worries
Always glad to help if I can.

So, will that be ounces in weight, or fluid ounces? (sorry, I couldn't resist)

Hmm, dollops would be fluid oz I guess

How do you know when you are low on the lemi shine/citric acid?

Hmm, to low I don't know maybe the brass doesn't get as clean/shiny, (would need to do a batch without any to see what happens) not enough is probably not a big deal,
to much and the cases look funny, leaches the Zinc (copper? something...) out of the brass.

Side note: With normal amounts I had a couple brass coated steel cases I missed on the initial sort, they were easy to spot after because they turned a funny pinkish/orange color.

There was another wet tumbling thread showing Wash and Wax, Dawn, Lemishine and beer in a picture.
I never did see an answer on how much beer and how it was used.

am currently testing rifle loads and I may do away with wet tumbling for rifle cartridges if my test goes the way I think it will.

I don't know that the clean wet tumbled brass shoots any better, but nice shiny brass makes me