Oh, those horrible immigrants

[Herself]

Since you are asking again, herself ... I think that little snippet in Article 2 (Section 2, I believe - do you need it quoted verbatim?) noting that "the President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and the Navy ... and the militias of the several states ..." pretty much indicates a reasonable extrapolation is in fact, that the President is charged with the defense of the country ... (disclaimer: which in no way, shape or form gives the President the authority to override any other portions of the Constitution...). And one can also conclude that illegal aliens who habitually engage in violent criminal activity constitutes an "invasion."

Already read it. Don't see the word "defense." Don't see where "illegal aliens who habitually engage in violent criminal activity" would justify violation of the Constitutional limitations on the use of the Armed Services as police. Originally, there was to be no standing Army at the Federal level, so "defense" -- already a somewhat subjective interpretation of the text -- in the proactive form being argued here would be just a bit tricky to implement.

As I recall, the last time the Feds sent soldiers to "help out" along the U. S.-Mexico border (I do not recall if this was under the administration of the elder Mr. Bush or that of Mr. Clinton), one result was the mistaken shooting of a teeneager herding sheep. Makes one feel safer just to hear it, doesn't it?

--Herself

 

[gc70]

And the first time the US sent soldiers to "help out" along the U.S.-Mexico border, we ended up rearranging Mexico's government and borders.

 

[gc70]

herself, in response to your question about Presidential authority and responsibility to prevent illegal immigration:

The Constitution, Article II, Section 3:

...he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed...

Whether or not you subscribe to the characterization of illegal immigration as an invasion, the "illegal" aspect remains.

 

[longeyes]

unorganized and largely unarmed poor folk sneaking over the border is equivalant to a drilled, disciplined and armed body of men taking hostile action against the government and citizens of the United States which includes crossing the national borders.

Herself, I said you appeared to live near Never-Never Land because your vision of illegal aliens seems so, well, benign. Perhaps you don't know that the LAPD--yes, I live in California, in Los Angeles, specifically--estimates that 60 per cent of L.A. gang members are illegal aliens, that gov't statistics indicate 30 per cent of our Federal prison inmates are illegal aliens. I don't need to go into, again, the financial hit we are all taking because of illegal immigration?

Maybe life in Indiana--I have no dislike of Indiana, why should I?--is free of the impact of illegal immigration. Come to L.A.--it's a nice place to visit--and spend some time looking around. See what you think; then report back to the gang on THR.

I was away for a while. Old Dog gave you the answer I'd have given you. Thank you, Old Dog. Illegal aliens are, pure and simple, foreign invaders.

 

[stealthmode]

i like accordian music

 

[Sindawe]

Not quite right - my grandmother landed at Ellis Island with TB - she was quarantined in a state hospital at taxpayer expense, her four children were distributed to I guess what we'd call foster homes in today's jargon. She spent 7 years in various institutions before she was pronounced well enough to rejoin society. She wasn't returned to Germany. She never talked about it much, just to say it gave her an excellent opportunity to learn English.

Not quite right RR. As I have show before in these august pages, this nation refused entry to a significant of those who would join us. Search and you will find the data here. (hint: The handle WildAlaska is a usefull search term). Your GMother was one of the FEW lucky ones.

Live long enough an everybody looks like somebody you knew....

And the first time the US sent soldiers to "help out" along the U.S.-Mexico border, we ended up rearranging Mexico's government and borders.

Hmmm...what was it said about those who foreget history?

 

[longeyes]

i like accordian music

I have a "Lady of Spain" recording I can sell you. Cheap.

 

[rick_reno]

Not quite right RR. As I have show before in these august pages, this nation refused entry to a significant of those who would join us. Search and you will find the data here. (hint: The handle WildAlaska is a usefull search term). Your GMother was one of the FEW lucky ones.

Live long enough an everybody looks like somebody you knew....Hmmm...what was it said about those who foreget history?

Sorry - I'm not biting on a reference to something you won't post a link to.

You posted "Yes, and we as a nation also screened those coming, sending back those with infectious diseases." I posted the story of my relative, who arrived with an infectious disease - and was NOT returned. I need to see statistics on how many arrived with infectious diseases and how many of those were returned. Post them - then we'll talk.

 

[CAnnoneer]

Telomerase,

The above posters gave substantive responses to your assertations. I would add two small points:

1)
A country without laws is anarchy. We have good laws that should be enforced, including by "compassionate" POTUS's. If the current laws are deemed unsatisfactory, there are perfectly legal ways to change them in accordance with the wishes of the majority. And there is the kicker. The majority of the population is not yet sufficiently drugged on socialism, white guilt, globalism, etc. to ignore practicality and their own interests. That is why we see such a plethora of clownish tricks performed in all branches of government and in the media to try to cloud issues and somehow circumvent the strict adherence to the law.

2)
Judging by your name and the mention of the postdoc, I must conclude you are a researcher in academia (molecular biology?). Please reconcile for us your likely exclusive dependence on .gov grants with your vehement anti-gov stance. After all, working in your field would have been nigh impossible in 1905.

Herself,

1)
Do you seriously believe POTUS has no responsibility to defend the country taking into account his duties delineated by the Constitution?

2)
Would you require a stranger, that breaks into your house and uses/takes your property, to be armed to the teeth before you declare him a burglar and call the police? Would you play semantics and consider his plight as he makes away with your plasma TV?

 

[gc70]

You (Sindawe) posted "Yes, and we as a nation also screened those coming, sending back those with infectious diseases." I posted the story of my relative, who arrived with an infectious disease - and was NOT returned. I need to see statistics on how many arrived with infectious diseases and how many of those were returned. Post them - then we'll talk.

From the National Park Service's Statue of Liberty National Monument and Ellis Island website: Ellis Island History - A Brief Look

Only two percent of the arriving immigrants were excluded from entry. The two main reasons why an immigrant would be excluded were if a doctor diagnosed that the immigrant had a contagious disease that would endanger the public health or if a legal inspector thought the immigrant was likely to become a public charge or an illegal contract laborer.

Thanks, rick_reno; your challenge to sindawe prompted me to do some rewarding research that gave me a much better perspective on the history of immigration in the US.

 

[Phyphor]

If they would come and work and be productive members of society I wouldn't care, but they spray paint on our walls, steal from us, drive drunk ( and get away with it because they are not citizens ), throw ????ty diapers in our streets,

I take it you've been to Earlimart too, eh? :banghead:

 

[odysseus]

To others: one reason we have "illegals" is because we have quotas for legal immigration -- and they get filled up quickly.

Yes, and there is a solid reason for that. That is why there is a LEGAL way to reside and work in our country, and those who feel they need to cheat the system are illegal. This doesn't justify it for any reason. I also might venture to say there are some who (maybe for criminal records) would not legally sign up anyway do to the screening process.

Quotas can adjust. However our ambivalence for this abuse of our immigration system should not be tolerated. I am sure you are not justifying illegal action because people don't like the rules. For an example, if I wanted to immigrate to Canada (or any prosperous country) - but they told me to wait, and then I just snuck across the border anyway and squatted there, what do you think Canadians would think? Why should we be different?

If you want to be a citizen here, I want you to swear allegiance to the USA. Not sneak in and then try to get amnesty since you hid out here for years...

 

[1911 guy]

I read only the original post.

Forgive me if I'm repeating something already said, but the original poster is missing the point. Legal immigration is not a problem. We're all here, with few exceptions, because of it. Don't muddy the water and stir the pot by confusing the two issues. One person stands in line to do the paperwork and improve his situation in life, the other sneaks across a border against the law, steals your tax money, takes your job, is responsible for a disproportionate percentage of violent crime and demands that you change your way of life to suit him. How dare you put them on the same level. I work with several legal immigrants and they are just as against illegals as I or anyone else. Yes, there are problems within we must deal with, but don't push your flawed ideology off as fact or even all that logical.

 

[grimjaw]

we just get our local riffraff to despoil our city and overwhelm our social services ...

Old Dog, +1. Seems like all the folks I knew of like that in Arkansas didn't know a lick of Spanish, Chinese, or any other language than poorly spoken English learned in a public school in the US.

But I agree with the sentiment of deportation for illegal immigration. Could we maybe fine the Mexican government for every deportation case, too?

jmm

 

[Highland Ranger]

Here's another solution - don't do business with people who use illegals.

I just had a bunch of construction work done - it said in the contract, no illegal workers.

If they can't find work, they'll then break and overload the social welfare system. Then they'll stop coming.

 

[Herself]

1) Do you seriously believe POTUS has no responsibility to defend the country taking into account his duties delineated by the Constitution?

"Defense" implies attack. Tell me, do you shoot bums that are "invading" the sidewalks you pay taxes to have built? Are they "attacking" you when they do their various businesses in the corners?

The linking of illegal immigrants with crime is another sort of example; first, it's self-fulfilling (if you're here illegally, you're automatically a criminal) and second, linking criminal activites to the President's job sort of skips a few steps, many of them not in the direct line of command. You do understand why we do not have a national police force in the States, don't you?

The Presidency is a highly overated job. He's not King and he's not necessarily a philosopher. He's just there to deal with other heads of State (read "Kings") and to execute the law as laid down in the Constitution and by Congress. (Thus the executive branch). He's not supposed to get especially creative about it; we have the House for that sort of thing..

2) Would you require a stranger, that breaks into your house and uses/takes your property, to be armed to the teeth before you declare him a burglar and call the police? Would you play semantics and consider his plight as he makes away with your plasma TV?

So, which illegals have been taking your plasma TV? Your analogy is false; illegal immigrants generally are not stealing anything this nation owns. If individuals among them are breaking into people's houses and taking things, shoot 'em in the act as you would any other B&E specialist. But being an optimistic fool sneaking over a border looking for work or even for a handout is not the same as slipping a lock on my house in hopes of finding goodies to remove: I own what I own. Nobody not self-employed "owns" their job and no one "owns" a government or private charity handout.

Your problem is that you very much want the current level of socialism in the States, you just want to make sure it's reserved for you and yours. It's a sort of nationalistic socialism, in fact. Hmmm.


I have never said ilegal immgrants shouldn't be sent home. I simply don't think they are something to become hysterical about. It is clear to me that the observed behavior indicates immigration quotas for Mexicans are set at unrealistically low levels and the "fix" is to drop all such quotas and alow legal immigration to seek it own level. How about it?

--Herself

 

[MarkDido]

No - those two words are wrong. The correct two words are "President Bush". We don't have to worry about immigration, immigrants or anything else relating to them. President Bush has got a plan. You elected him for these plans. Be happy and forget about this subject - it'll be a non-issue as soon as his plan is approved by Congress and implemented.

Hey Rick....

My grand-daughter didn't get the Barbie car she asked Santa for this year.

I'm sure you can somehow work this into how it's President Bush's fault

You manage to do it in every other thread!

:banghead:

 

[USMCRotrHed]

Now I'm all for keeping things legal, but if you want to stop illegal immigration then arrest the big growers and ranchers that hire them for 2 bucks an hour.

OK, deal! We arrest the facilitators of illegal immigration and do what we can to stop the flow of illegals.

I'm not anti-immigration. I am anti-ILLEGAL immigration. How much respect for our country do you think someone will have if they are breaking the law from the time they get on our soil. If we don't enforce those laws, how much respect for the rest of our laws do you think those same people will have.

I see nothing wrong with allowing only immigration into the USA the same way we did around 1900. Re-open Ellis Island type facilities and process immigrants legally. Arrest and deport the illegals.

Or how about this idea. Since illegal immigration helps out Mexico so much, and since they do have large amounts of oil, how about a trade. We take 1 immigrant, they send 1 barrel of oil for each month we employ and provide health care for the "otherwise illiegal immigrants.

 

[Moondoggie]

Preacherman could have listed all of the things he wanted to see happen much more succinctly by just saying.....

Have our Gov't do exactly what the Gov't of Mexico does.

Mexico uses their army to patrol it's southern border. Mexico denies health care, what passes for "social services", and education to anybody not authorized to be in Mexico. Any and all police officers will turn you over to the Federales in a heartbeat if they suspect that you're in the country illegally. Spouses of persons legally in Mexico for work purposes are strictly forbidden to hold a job. What's good for the goose.....

Anybody care to compare/contrast the status of human rights in Mexico vs. the USA?

Small wonder they flood over our borders where folks like Herself want to conduct a cerebral debate about the legality or conceptuality of enforcing our laws.

50 yrs ago "Wetbacks" in the SW were a curiosity to most of us in the US. Today schools in North Dakota are required to spend tax dollars accomodating ESL students. Care to guess what their first language is?

"We the People" through our elected representatives have decided and enacted laws/policies to the effect that only so many persons from other countries should be allowed to enter our country on an annual basis. This is a standard practice throughout the world by almost every country, including Mexico. There is an avenue available for legal immigration into the USA. The people of Mexico have decided enmasse that they will disregard our laws for personal economic benefit, and sadly, so has much of our government and some of our citizens.

 

[hayseed]

The turn of the century/Ellis island comparison has grown tiresome. It's apples and oranges.

The vast majority of illegal aliens are not coming here to be Americans, they're setting up outposts of their home country. Local leaders and polititians are falling all over themselves to welcome them to show how they love diversity, as long as they live by the packing plant and not around the country club.

Anyone who has a warm fuzzy over illegal aliens needs to see what they've done to the town I used to live in over the last 15-20 years. And don't dare say anything about it, cause then you are racist.(Hint: home and business owners are subject to fines if they do not remove Mexican graffiti from their buildings within a certain time period. I kid you not.)

Oh yeah, Biker, forget a nice picnic at the lake around here. You will be subjected to mandatory diversity training in the form of loud @** thumpin polka music from open car trunks. I don't care what people listen to, but lack of common courtesy comes with importing the third world.

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

 

[armoredman]

Illegal aliens are all just poor people trying to get work to support thier familes....bullcrock. There are over 4,000 Mexican National inmates in AZ prisons, over 11% of our limited space, just for them, for various crimes ranging from DUI to multiple premeditated murder. Not ONE of those inmates is here legally. For those disinclined to math, that's a little more than one out of every ten, in an illegal alien. Every one of them, when released, (97% of all inmates are released), will be kicked back across the border...do you think it will be long before they are back north?
I live 60+ miles north of the border, I see the nationals doing scut work, but I also see the gangs, the nationalism they keep alive, basically recreating thier slums in Mexico here in the States, with better cars and louder music. If you want to live here, learn the langauge, don't demand I have to learn YOUR language. You came here, I didn't force you too.
I love LEGAL immigration - my family came here in the mid 1800s, and moved to a community in Minnesota, but were proud Americans, not Norweigan-Americans....or should I claim my "immigrant status", and start trying to get "benefits", too?
A nation without borders, is not a nation, but a mob waiting to riot.

 

[Old Dog]

herself said

I have never said ilegal immgrants shouldn't be sent home. I simply don't think they are something to become hysterical about.

To which most of us would respond, it can also depend on where one lives. Having lived in Southern California and Arizona, I'd say ... if not "hysterical" -- certainly something to be deeply concerned and actively worried and maybe even seriously p***ed-off at the government about ...

 

[JAMES77257]

I take it you've been to Earlimart too, eh? :banghead:

Ha! Where are you from? I live about 30 min. from there.

 

[longeyes]

So, which illegals have been taking your plasma TV? Your analogy is false; illegal immigrants generally are not stealing anything this nation owns. If individuals among them are breaking into people's houses and taking things, shoot 'em in the act as you would any other B&E specialist. But being an optimistic fool sneaking over a border looking for work or even for a handout is not the same as slipping a lock on my house in hopes of finding goodies to remove: I own what I own. Nobody not self-employed "owns" their job and no one "owns" a government or private charity handout.

Your problem is that you very much want the current level of socialism in the States, you just want to make sure it's reserved for you and yours. It's a sort of nationalistic socialism, in fact. Hmmm.


I have never said ilegal immgrants shouldn't be sent home. I simply don't think they are something to become hysterical about. It is clear to me that the observed behavior indicates immigration quotas for Mexicans are set at unrealistically low levels

And here, for all to see, is the problem...

You live in Indiana, you don't see the impact of illegal immigration. You don't feel it fiscally, and, frankly, you operate on misinformation.

Illegal aliens are ripping off the public treasury, in a variety of ways, massively. They are costing California alone a conservative estimate of $5 billion a year. We are basically running the Los Angeles public school system for them, not for American kids. LAUSD has a yearly budget of several billion dollars and $15 billion in construction plans. Not stealing? I beg to differ.

I think American citizens deserve a safety net, though we can debate how large it ought to be. I emphatically do not think that safety net should be extended to people who have no legal right to be here at all.

Your implication, Herself, that those of us who oppose illegal immigration are somehow Nazis who selfishly want "national socialism" is deeply insulting. The only hysteria I've seen about illegal immigration so far is coming from the pro-illegal alien lobby and its running dogs; they realize the tide is turning and that the 20-year-old party is coming to an end.

 

[Glock Glockler]

While I wish I could take people's posts apart and address specific points I simply don't have the time today so I will try to make things as simple as possible.

If a relative fall on hard times and asked to crash at your place you might be able to accomidate them for a bit, paying for their food and other needs might tax you a bit but you could potentially handle that situation but you cannot support infinite number of relatives that need your support.

It is rather easy for illegals to take advantage of our welfare state and start consuming huge amounts of govt resources that have to be paid for via increased taxes. In my line of work I see people's financial situations every day and it's pretty staggering how their state and local taxes have jumped in the past 5 years alone, and govt programs for illegals are most definately a factor in that.

It is claimed that we need illegals because they do low end labor for cheap wages and are therefore an economic necessity, the flaw with this idea is that if someone only makes a small wage then by default their economic contribution is small. A lettuce picker who makes 17k/yr but then consumes 5x that amount in healthcare, welfare, food stamps, education, prison, etc is an economic drain to those that have to pay for that. This is nothing more than a corporate welfare subsidy to the companies that get the benefit of cheap labor but the people get the cost.

If we keep up the open door we will find ourselves economically strangled and suprassed in the world economy. You cannot have open borders and a welfare state.