Oh, VZ-58
- Thread starter Avenger29
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Acheron
Member
Just because it's in a book doesn't make it correct. You can't believe everything that you read.
Finger
Member
Funny you guys are talking about this. I just did a shooting and driving gig with a few of these guys from the Czech Republik. Nice guys, hard trainers.
I learned about this rifle during the class. I never really knew about them being the only Bloc country that didn't use the AK. They gave me the whole story. I have been looking at maybe adding the vz 858 (semi-auto version) to my collection.
Looks like a interesting piece.
Oh I saw the thread entry that had the advertisement from Ohio Ordinance. I used these guy this year. they rented me 4-249s and 4-240Bs with armorer for a DOS class. They had quality gear and great service.
I learned about this rifle during the class. I never really knew about them being the only Bloc country that didn't use the AK. They gave me the whole story. I have been looking at maybe adding the vz 858 (semi-auto version) to my collection.
Looks like a interesting piece.
Oh I saw the thread entry that had the advertisement from Ohio Ordinance. I used these guy this year. they rented me 4-249s and 4-240Bs with armorer for a DOS class. They had quality gear and great service.
Acheron
Member
CZ themselves say that the rifle was originally chambered in 7.92x33mm. I'd trust them more than anyone else. They designed and built the bloody thing.
nalioth
Member
Archeron said:
... but were your "several different places" quoting from or based on the speculative text?Browning said:
Some authors will read the 'speculative' text as 'factual' when they write books based on it.
As has been posted here, not much has been known about any ComBloc weapons usage during the cold war until relatively recently. Back in the day, there was a lot of speculation.
It doesn't really matter the history of the thing, I'm just glad to get some sales competition for the rifle going here in the USA.
kBob
Member
I would just like to chime in on the VZ58. My hands on experience with them is measured in minutes but I seem to recall that they seemed less StG44 dirived than AKs.
For starters they do not have a rotating hammer but a straight line hammer like might be found in some "hammerless" semi auto pistol designs. As a results its safety/selector system is not like either the StG44 or AK.
Also unlike the AK or StG44 the piston is not part of the bolt carrier but a sepperate piece with its own return spring.
They do using a tipping bolt for locking like the StG44 rather than a turning bolt as in the AK.
As to not believing everything one reads....that also applies, perhaps doubley so, for what one reads on the web.
As it is related by being Czech and not exisiting (according to all the written accounts available at the time) I would mention that I hav been told that it was not possible that I have held a 9x19 mm Model 52 pistol in my hand, and certainly not in 1974. Well I didi and it was for sale in the Rod and Gun CLub at Graffenhowr training area in FRG, with a notation that it could not be imported into the US. I was told they were made by the Czechs for the export market. Also for sale at that time were Russian Margolin .22 target pistols and kits that could also not be imported into the US. Of course Walther PPk pistols were also available which could not be imported at that time.
My guess is that GIs headed home attempted to sell such guns to folks remaining in Europe at the time, I know that to be the case with a PPk among two of my platoon's NCOs.
I would however think that the VZ58 was likley protyped in 7.92 KIP as East Germany (GDR) was still producing the round and still arming reserves with StG44s into the 1950s.
On the other hand the Czechs used their 7.62x 45 round right up until 1957in both the Model 52 rifle and LMG. I would find it odd if the VZ58 had not at least been considered to be made in that caliber at somepoint in its development and have no trouble believing that at least A prototype (with a streached reciever etc) may have been made.
I would be careful leaping on someone about something NEVER having been made or NOT exisiting.
-Bob Hollingsworth
For starters they do not have a rotating hammer but a straight line hammer like might be found in some "hammerless" semi auto pistol designs. As a results its safety/selector system is not like either the StG44 or AK.
Also unlike the AK or StG44 the piston is not part of the bolt carrier but a sepperate piece with its own return spring.
They do using a tipping bolt for locking like the StG44 rather than a turning bolt as in the AK.
As to not believing everything one reads....that also applies, perhaps doubley so, for what one reads on the web.
As it is related by being Czech and not exisiting (according to all the written accounts available at the time) I would mention that I hav been told that it was not possible that I have held a 9x19 mm Model 52 pistol in my hand, and certainly not in 1974. Well I didi and it was for sale in the Rod and Gun CLub at Graffenhowr training area in FRG, with a notation that it could not be imported into the US. I was told they were made by the Czechs for the export market. Also for sale at that time were Russian Margolin .22 target pistols and kits that could also not be imported into the US. Of course Walther PPk pistols were also available which could not be imported at that time.
My guess is that GIs headed home attempted to sell such guns to folks remaining in Europe at the time, I know that to be the case with a PPk among two of my platoon's NCOs.
I would however think that the VZ58 was likley protyped in 7.92 KIP as East Germany (GDR) was still producing the round and still arming reserves with StG44s into the 1950s.
On the other hand the Czechs used their 7.62x 45 round right up until 1957in both the Model 52 rifle and LMG. I would find it odd if the VZ58 had not at least been considered to be made in that caliber at somepoint in its development and have no trouble believing that at least A prototype (with a streached reciever etc) may have been made.
I would be careful leaping on someone about something NEVER having been made or NOT exisiting.
-Bob Hollingsworth
Yeah, I looked on there, they didn't give out very much information on the early history of the VZ-58 or history on proto-types at all. CZ would certainly know if they did or not, but they never stated anywhere on their site that they didn't make it in 7.62X45.
So that's hardly a source that you can use to claim that they didn't originally make them in 7.62X45. I stated my sources and there's really nothing more to say. It's a footnote in Czech firearms history, it's not the end all be all of discussion on the VZ-58. I sent an e-mail to Leibstandarte AdH with one of the pages in question attached from one of the books and that's it.
This is getting kind of boring, I believe that the Czechs did manufacture them in that caliber based on several different sources and you don't think that they made VZ-58's in the 7.62X45 Czech based on whatever and I'm fine with that.
Lets just agree to disagree.
So that's hardly a source that you can use to claim that they didn't originally make them in 7.62X45. I stated my sources and there's really nothing more to say. It's a footnote in Czech firearms history, it's not the end all be all of discussion on the VZ-58. I sent an e-mail to Leibstandarte AdH with one of the pages in question attached from one of the books and that's it.
This is getting kind of boring, I believe that the Czechs did manufacture them in that caliber based on several different sources and you don't think that they made VZ-58's in the 7.62X45 Czech based on whatever and I'm fine with that.
Lets just agree to disagree.
Acheron
Member
Fair enough.
armoredman
Member
Too expensive. I will stick with WASR and Mini-14. If they become affordable, then I will inquire, but this one time, CZ-USA has something I have no bloomin' use for, not at that high price.
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LeibstandarteAdH
Member
Kbob is correct, i should not say that there NEVER was A prototype in 7.62x45as i have seen, and seen pictures of things that i would have never thought existed either.
I havent checked my email yet but i do look fourward to seeing it though.
There have also been some really good speculation and insight into this gun here. I could say more but it would be nothing but elaboration on what i and others have already posted.
Ok, Enough said about that.
I too am just waiting for CZUSA to bring them in and have them 922(r) compliant, and for Ohio Rapid Fire to maybe bump there price down a little.
These are very neat guns and i would buy them over AK's for the stated $800 or so any day. The 12-1300 is just a little over a threshold that keeps me from getting any in number or as shooters. The size is also a big plus for me.
I havent checked my email yet but i do look fourward to seeing it though.
There have also been some really good speculation and insight into this gun here. I could say more but it would be nothing but elaboration on what i and others have already posted.
Ok, Enough said about that.
I too am just waiting for CZUSA to bring them in and have them 922(r) compliant, and for Ohio Rapid Fire to maybe bump there price down a little.
These are very neat guns and i would buy them over AK's for the stated $800 or so any day. The 12-1300 is just a little over a threshold that keeps me from getting any in number or as shooters. The size is also a big plus for me.
armoredman
Member
List Price, $970 "military stock", and $990, Zytel "Sporter" stock. With $39 30 round mags, (comes with one only), it becomes well over $1200 to get to the "200 rounds on person" standard. I have been informed they are already 922 compliant.
Magazines don't have to be 40 bucks a piece, if you look around. Here's a link to 4 mags plus some other accessories for 40 bucks.http://www.centerfiresystems.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=462 And even using CZ's suggested price, it is still a couple hundred cheaper than I've seen VZ-58's any place else. I'm seriously considering purchasing one.
HorseSoldier
Member
+1 what fal 4 me said. CZ USA's magazine prices are inflated (comparison shop their prices for pistol mags as well, compared to CDNN and other sources -- who sell the same Mecgar mags that come with the pistols stock), and vz.58 mags can currently be had for around $10 each in the various package deals you can find online, making them one of the cheaper options out there.
I have got to be getting me one of these!
I never paid much attention to these guns and always thought they were just another eastern European version of the AK. I never realized they are entirely different from the AK.
For what it's worth Marstar of Canada sells these guns for $595 Canadian.
http://www.marstar.ca/gf-VZ-58/VZ-58S.shtm
That comes out to $609 U.S. If these rifles come in around that price sign me up!
I never paid much attention to these guns and always thought they were just another eastern European version of the AK. I never realized they are entirely different from the AK.
For what it's worth Marstar of Canada sells these guns for $595 Canadian.
http://www.marstar.ca/gf-VZ-58/VZ-58S.shtm
That comes out to $609 U.S. If these rifles come in around that price sign me up!
mons meg
Member
I predict Sportsman's Warehouse will have them for around $700 when they eventually come in.
Also, I assume they will eat Wolf steel case all day long?
Also, I assume they will eat Wolf steel case all day long?
nalioth
Member
... and all night, too.mons meg said:
HorseSoldier
Member
I've yet to have, or see, a stoppage with one, shooting steel cased Russian and brass cased Yugoslavian ammo in pretty large quantities at one go.
nalioth
Member
Anybody know who has these in stock? The Cz-USA variants, not the OOW offerings.
JHansenAK47
Member
I heard CZ USA is going to have Dan Wesson put the VZ58s together.
larry starling
Member
I will buy one what the heck......
dstorm1911
Member
Armoredman, ya gotta put the price into proper perspective, this is not a low tier stamped AK like a WASR, think more in comparison to the pricing for a milled AK with component quality in the top of the line versus bottom of barrel....... much better tolerances, much more versatile now what does a top shelf MILLED AK cost these days? they start around $800 with lower level Norincos going around $400 (not long ago the Norincos were up there a lil better but latelly....) now suddenly the all milled generally better built VZ58 is right were it belongs price wise when comparing apples to apples ie; milled versus milled rather than stamped low tier versus milled top tier quality wise....
The first huge difference ya notice with the Vz58 over the best milled AK is when ya pull back on the charging handle........ totally smooth it literally glides now release it...... no clack clack just a shhhhhhtack as it locks into battery much more like a well broke in SKS than an AK, for accuracy swap to the fixed stock (requires loosening a single slot head screw (coin slot BTW) the stock is mounted in a socket slip in the fixed and tighten the screw and your ready swapping back to the folder for compactness and versatility is a few seconds away.....
MUCH much smoother standard trigger which can easily be tuned for pretravel and over travel,
BHO - standard
Stripper clip loading - standard (ie; could be made commie state legal very easily.... simply perm afix a mag)
twin BC Guide rods - standard (this means the bolt ALWAYS cycles identically unlike an AK or even SKS etc..)
really the only comparison to an AK is in the caliber...... even the appearance is really only similar when viewed by those who don't really see anything but an outline similarity those who actually note details will quikly see they really only very slightly share an AK style "profile" everything else is totally and completally different ie; the dust cover,bolt, bolt carrier, selector, FCG, gas system, furniture, magazines, bayonets, the only thing they do share is an AK style front sight/rear sight (but shorter) but then so does a Valmet.......
The first huge difference ya notice with the Vz58 over the best milled AK is when ya pull back on the charging handle........ totally smooth it literally glides now release it...... no clack clack just a shhhhhhtack as it locks into battery much more like a well broke in SKS than an AK, for accuracy swap to the fixed stock (requires loosening a single slot head screw (coin slot BTW) the stock is mounted in a socket slip in the fixed and tighten the screw and your ready swapping back to the folder for compactness and versatility is a few seconds away.....
MUCH much smoother standard trigger which can easily be tuned for pretravel and over travel,
BHO - standard
Stripper clip loading - standard (ie; could be made commie state legal very easily.... simply perm afix a mag)
twin BC Guide rods - standard (this means the bolt ALWAYS cycles identically unlike an AK or even SKS etc..)
really the only comparison to an AK is in the caliber...... even the appearance is really only similar when viewed by those who don't really see anything but an outline similarity those who actually note details will quikly see they really only very slightly share an AK style "profile" everything else is totally and completally different ie; the dust cover,bolt, bolt carrier, selector, FCG, gas system, furniture, magazines, bayonets, the only thing they do share is an AK style front sight/rear sight (but shorter) but then so does a Valmet.......
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LeibstandarteAdH
Member
christmas is getting close, and nothing but krebs (OOW) Vz 58's seem to be in stock anywhere. It looks like im going to have to go with one of those if somebody doesent' get the ones CZ-USA is doing within the next few weeks. As id kind of like one marked CZ-something somewhere. But the recievor comes from the same place anyway, all that would be diffrent are the markings, possible finish, and thats pretty much it. As penning the parts onto a milled recievor should be simple for people used to riveting AK's togather from parts kits.
nwilliams
Member
If I see one for sale for a price I can afford then I would certainly have a tough time not buying it.
Although this is what I really want
http://www.czub.cz/index.php?p=32&idp=9&ids=36&idz=228&lang=en
Although this is what I really want
http://www.czub.cz/index.php?p=32&idp=9&ids=36&idz=228&lang=en
nalioth
Member
I'd personally like a nice new one made by the Czechs over one cobbled together out of used Czech parts.LeibstandarteAdH said:
They are on the way. Cz-USA didn't anticipate the demand and are now backordered. Patience. (I have to tell myself that often, as I'm looking for them, too)
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