Older S&W 38 US Service CTG'S
- Thread starter Big Daddy K
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Radagast
Member
oto is a poorly stamped ctg, the abbreviation for Cartridge.
It could be one of several models. To ID it I will need the following. Pics will help as well.
Does the gun have a S&W logo stamped on the frame or the grips?
Is it a 5 or six shot?
What is the barrel elnght measured from the muzzle to the cylinder?
Does the cylinder swing out to the side or does the barrel tilt down and the cylinder swing up?
Is the stamping on the barrel .38 S&W CTG or .38 Special CTG or .38 Spl CTG?
It could be one of several models. To ID it I will need the following. Pics will help as well.
Does the gun have a S&W logo stamped on the frame or the grips?
Is it a 5 or six shot?
What is the barrel elnght measured from the muzzle to the cylinder?
Does the cylinder swing out to the side or does the barrel tilt down and the cylinder swing up?
Is the stamping on the barrel .38 S&W CTG or .38 Special CTG or .38 Spl CTG?
HI there,
Wow, what an amazing site with incredible members! I can't get over some of these detailed replies I have seen here...
I to have a revolver which I can't identify specifically due to its' incredible low serial number... Maybe some of you can help...
It is an S&W Regulation Police 38 S&W CTG. It is nickel plated with wood grips but the hammer and trigger are not plated. The serial number is 584 I believe because it is on the inside of the grip behind the trigger guard, on the cylinder and under the barrel. On the frame, behind the cylinder it is stamped 2001 in 2 places next to each other and it is also stamped with a P below the forcing cone in the cyclinder housing. It is also stamped with a 5 on the backstrap. Any help you can offer would greatly be appreciated!
Thanks
Jack
Wow, what an amazing site with incredible members! I can't get over some of these detailed replies I have seen here...
I to have a revolver which I can't identify specifically due to its' incredible low serial number... Maybe some of you can help...
It is an S&W Regulation Police 38 S&W CTG. It is nickel plated with wood grips but the hammer and trigger are not plated. The serial number is 584 I believe because it is on the inside of the grip behind the trigger guard, on the cylinder and under the barrel. On the frame, behind the cylinder it is stamped 2001 in 2 places next to each other and it is also stamped with a P below the forcing cone in the cyclinder housing. It is also stamped with a 5 on the backstrap. Any help you can offer would greatly be appreciated!
Thanks
Jack
Smith & Wesson introduced the Regulation Police model in 1917. There were two versions that were nearly identical except one was a 6-shot .32, and the other was a 5-shot .38 (chambered in .38 S&W, not .38 Special).
They included the .32 version with an earlier revolver, the 1903 Hand Ejector, and put both in the same serial number series, so the .32 Regulation Police started out around serial no. 263,000.
However at the same time (1917) the .38 version was put in a different serial number series of its own, and started at No. 1.
Between 1917 and 1941 some 54,474 .38's were made, of which the one you have was the 584th.
They included the .32 version with an earlier revolver, the 1903 Hand Ejector, and put both in the same serial number series, so the .32 Regulation Police started out around serial no. 263,000.
However at the same time (1917) the .38 version was put in a different serial number series of its own, and started at No. 1.
Between 1917 and 1941 some 54,474 .38's were made, of which the one you have was the 584th.
Guillermo
member
You were hoping that someone of 32 S&W chimed in?
Lucky OF came along!!
psst...he might not admit it but if Old Fuff were a gun he would be a top break S&W in 32...mother of pearl grips...the nickel flaking off at the muzzle and the front of the cylinder from shooting
Well now!! I'll have you know that I am quite confortable with .32's - Smith & Wesson's and otherwise. Not only that, I have one that is nickel plated, in the original box, and has genuine S&W pearl stocks.
And most of the nickel is still there too ....
And most of the nickel is still there too ....
Guillermo
member
sounds like I know the Old Fuff pretty well...we both obviously have too much time on our hands
Guillermo
member
if you shot me with a 32 S&W and I found out about it...I would be VERY mad!!!
I don't want no gunfight or shoot'n. My Ol' Daddy told that them things were hazzardous for your health...
But I will point out that a whole lot of folks had their health take a serious downturn because of some little .32.......
With that I'll end this enjoyable thread drift...
But I will point out that a whole lot of folks had their health take a serious downturn because of some little .32.......
With that I'll end this enjoyable thread drift...
Guillermo
member
that seems reasonable "Top break Fuff"
:banghead: Photog101
Member
I found this thread through a Google search and it looks like some good information. I have not seen to much on the 5 shot revolvers though.
My father, who just had turned 90, recently passed away and in his safety deposit box, there was a S&W 38 5 shot serial #55***. Apparently my mother had no idea that it was there, due to the surprise on her face.
It was in a leather holster that had deteriorated and caused some pitting on the cylinder and end of the barrel. Since it is a family keepsake, I would like to restore it. I am also kind of curious as to how old it is. The grips look to be well used as the checkering in the Bakelite is well worn. It is has a 4" barrel.
The cylinder is 31mm long and I would like to know if this will take 38 spl rounds.
Apologies for the quality of the photos, but I used my Droid to take the photos and have not had time to clean them up.
My father, who just had turned 90, recently passed away and in his safety deposit box, there was a S&W 38 5 shot serial #55***. Apparently my mother had no idea that it was there, due to the surprise on her face.
It was in a leather holster that had deteriorated and caused some pitting on the cylinder and end of the barrel. Since it is a family keepsake, I would like to restore it. I am also kind of curious as to how old it is. The grips look to be well used as the checkering in the Bakelite is well worn. It is has a 4" barrel.
The cylinder is 31mm long and I would like to know if this will take 38 spl rounds.
Apologies for the quality of the photos, but I used my Droid to take the photos and have not had time to clean them up.
Jim Watson
Member
Photog,
You show a Smith & Wesson Perfected Model. It was the last and best of the S&W topbreak revolvers with top latch like the older topbreaks and a side latch like a Hand Ejector swingout. Also having a trigger guard integral with frame unlike older guns.
There were only 59,000 made from 1909 til 1920.
It will NOT take .38 Special ammunition.
Its caliber is .38 S&W; a shorter "fatter" cartridge.
You will have to shop around for ammunition, Midway does not expect to have any in stock until February.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=877063
You show a Smith & Wesson Perfected Model. It was the last and best of the S&W topbreak revolvers with top latch like the older topbreaks and a side latch like a Hand Ejector swingout. Also having a trigger guard integral with frame unlike older guns.
There were only 59,000 made from 1909 til 1920.
It will NOT take .38 Special ammunition.
Its caliber is .38 S&W; a shorter "fatter" cartridge.
You will have to shop around for ammunition, Midway does not expect to have any in stock until February.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=877063
My granddad Just gave me one with serial number 677xx on it. 5 inch barrel. Looks like original black plastic grips. Metal in somewhat poor condition, scratches and dents. Would like to know year and how to determine if it's safe to shoot. I can post more info and picture later if requested. Thanks
Radagast
Member
CROb:
That serial number makes your gun either a .38 Miltary & Police Model of 1905 4th Change or a .38/200 British Service Revolver dating to 1940. the Model of 1905 was in .38 S&W Special, the BSR was basically the same gun in .38 S&W. The side of the barrel will show the caliber.
Black plastic grips were used on the round butt guns prior to World War II, the round butt was fairly rare by 1940 as the majority of production had switched over to the square butt.
Pics would be helpfull in identifying it.
There is a how to check out a revolver thread stickied at the top of the revolver sub forum. That will help you to determine wether the gun is safe to shoot.
Keep in mind that guns made prior to 1944 lack the positive internal hammer block safety currently in use. If dropped the gun could fire, so leave the chamber under the hammer empty.
Your gun was made well after heat treatment of cylinders was introduced, so it should be safe to fire with any standard pressure or PlusP rated ammo. Avoid anything marked +P+ or gunshow 'handloads in a bag'.
That serial number makes your gun either a .38 Miltary & Police Model of 1905 4th Change or a .38/200 British Service Revolver dating to 1940. the Model of 1905 was in .38 S&W Special, the BSR was basically the same gun in .38 S&W. The side of the barrel will show the caliber.
Black plastic grips were used on the round butt guns prior to World War II, the round butt was fairly rare by 1940 as the majority of production had switched over to the square butt.
Pics would be helpfull in identifying it.
There is a how to check out a revolver thread stickied at the top of the revolver sub forum. That will help you to determine wether the gun is safe to shoot.
Keep in mind that guns made prior to 1944 lack the positive internal hammer block safety currently in use. If dropped the gun could fire, so leave the chamber under the hammer empty.
Your gun was made well after heat treatment of cylinders was introduced, so it should be safe to fire with any standard pressure or PlusP rated ammo. Avoid anything marked +P+ or gunshow 'handloads in a bag'.
![IMG_0759[1].jpg](https://www.thehighroad.org/data/attachments/99/99418-d2e7280cb97c84c9f4e441ea05cbcc73.jpg "IMG_0759[1].jpg")
Radagast
Member
CROb:
I've just come back to this thread. I misread your original post and missed the photo you posted.
with a serial number in the 67000 range and not the 670,000 range (which is what I misread it as) you have a .38 Military & Police Model of 1905 manufactured in the serial number range 62450 to 73250 between 1905 & 1906. The hard rubber grips are correct for the gun. the nickel finish appears to be original.
Your gun lacks the modern hammer block safety. It also lacks the non-positive hammer block supplied after 1915, so your gun must be treated as a five shooter, with the chamber under the hammer left empty.
It also predates heat treatment of cylinders. Do not fire anything other than standard pressure lead loads through this gun. No jacketed, semi jacketed, PlusP or +P+ as you may end up with a bulged or cracked cylinder.
I'll PM this to you as well in case you have unsubscribed from this thread.
I apologise for the wrong information.
I've just come back to this thread. I misread your original post and missed the photo you posted.
with a serial number in the 67000 range and not the 670,000 range (which is what I misread it as) you have a .38 Military & Police Model of 1905 manufactured in the serial number range 62450 to 73250 between 1905 & 1906. The hard rubber grips are correct for the gun. the nickel finish appears to be original.
Your gun lacks the modern hammer block safety. It also lacks the non-positive hammer block supplied after 1915, so your gun must be treated as a five shooter, with the chamber under the hammer left empty.
It also predates heat treatment of cylinders. Do not fire anything other than standard pressure lead loads through this gun. No jacketed, semi jacketed, PlusP or +P+ as you may end up with a bulged or cracked cylinder.
I'll PM this to you as well in case you have unsubscribed from this thread.
I apologise for the wrong information.
Happysniper1
Member
Hi, all! New to THR so forgive me...
I was reading this thread, and would like to ask related info on a revolver I was tasked with cleaning up.
It is a S&W 6-1/2 inch barreled revolver with fooowing markings:
left barrel "38 S.&W. SPECIAL" above "(weird curvy "&"? symbol) U.S. SERVICE CTG'S"
right barrel - <none>
Coverplate (right side) - S&W logo with "TRADE" on top and "MARK" at bottom
Serial number underneath barrel "30999"* with a sideways "B"
Serial number on butt "30999" *
Serial number on rear face of cylinder "30999"*
* the "9" in the serial number is really funky script, almost looks like an "8".
The front sight is identical to the one described by Palmtech: a blade narrowing towards the tip, rounded in the front and flat on the rear of the sight. When viewed for shooting, it resembles a pin more than a post.
Rear sight is a channel in the top of the frame.
Grips are hard black plastic with S&W logo near top of grip panels, and they are held in by a single screw that goes from right into left grip.
There is significant finish wear on the cylinder and on the frame above it (holster wear?) but the rest of the polished blued finish is excellent.
There is very very little wear in the action, and a lot of hard grease.
There is no play in the cylinder, action is crisp. The trigger pull in SA is 5lbs 65 oz and in DA it is over 12 lbs (the limit of my pull gauge). No endshake, pawl and cylinder locking hand no signs of wear.
The mainspring is a bar and not a captive coiled spring.
Firing pin seems to be held in the hammerpiece by a pin, and has a little play in it, don't know if this is normal.
The owner (my boss) received it as a gift, with no background information other than it is not "hot". He intends to use it (and shoot it) as a classroom gun for concealed weapons training classes. Unless, of course, it turns out to be a specimen worthy of display instead.
I would surely appreciate any information out there, thanks!
I was reading this thread, and would like to ask related info on a revolver I was tasked with cleaning up.
It is a S&W 6-1/2 inch barreled revolver with fooowing markings:
left barrel "38 S.&W. SPECIAL" above "(weird curvy "&"? symbol) U.S. SERVICE CTG'S"
right barrel - <none>
Coverplate (right side) - S&W logo with "TRADE" on top and "MARK" at bottom
Serial number underneath barrel "30999"* with a sideways "B"
Serial number on butt "30999" *
Serial number on rear face of cylinder "30999"*
* the "9" in the serial number is really funky script, almost looks like an "8".
The front sight is identical to the one described by Palmtech: a blade narrowing towards the tip, rounded in the front and flat on the rear of the sight. When viewed for shooting, it resembles a pin more than a post.
Rear sight is a channel in the top of the frame.
Grips are hard black plastic with S&W logo near top of grip panels, and they are held in by a single screw that goes from right into left grip.
There is significant finish wear on the cylinder and on the frame above it (holster wear?) but the rest of the polished blued finish is excellent.
There is very very little wear in the action, and a lot of hard grease.
There is no play in the cylinder, action is crisp. The trigger pull in SA is 5lbs 65 oz and in DA it is over 12 lbs (the limit of my pull gauge). No endshake, pawl and cylinder locking hand no signs of wear.
The mainspring is a bar and not a captive coiled spring.
Firing pin seems to be held in the hammerpiece by a pin, and has a little play in it, don't know if this is normal.
The owner (my boss) received it as a gift, with no background information other than it is not "hot". He intends to use it (and shoot it) as a classroom gun for concealed weapons training classes. Unless, of course, it turns out to be a specimen worthy of display instead.
I would surely appreciate any information out there, thanks!
Happysniper1
Member
OOPs, missed this marking on revolver (see my previous post)....
on top of barrel there are 2 lines of text:
"SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS. U.S.A. PAT'D APR.9.89. MAR.27.94"
"MAY 21.95. JULY 16.95. AUG.4.96. DEC.22.96. OCT.4.98. OCT.8.01. DEC.17.01"
Sorry, missed adding this to my previous post.
on top of barrel there are 2 lines of text:
"SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS. U.S.A. PAT'D APR.9.89. MAR.27.94"
"MAY 21.95. JULY 16.95. AUG.4.96. DEC.22.96. OCT.4.98. OCT.8.01. DEC.17.01"
Sorry, missed adding this to my previous post.
Radagast
Member
Your boss has a .38 Military & Police 2nd Model /.38 Military & Police Model of 1902 manufactured in 1902 or 1903 in the serial rnage 20976 to 33803. It sounds like this gun has a target front sight fitted but not the adjustablew rear sight.
The serial number is duplicated in all the correct places for that model.
The reference to .38 Service CTG is to .38 Long Colt, which was the standard US handgun cartridge at the time. The .38 special is a stretched .38 long colt case, so both will chamber.
This model lacks the positive internal hammer block safety introduced during World War II and still in use today. It should be treated as a five shooter with the chamber under the hammer left empty. If dropped it could fire.
It also predates heat treated cylinders. Becuase of this it should only be fired with standard pressure lead ammo, no PLusP, +P+, jacketed or semi jacketed ammo. Firing any of these may result in a bulged cylinder. Although designed from the outset as a smokeless power gun, S&W did not start advertising all of their products as safe for smokeless until around 1906 to 1908, so there may have been a change in the steel used at that time.
It is a round butt K frame and aftermarket grips should fit.
The serial number is duplicated in all the correct places for that model.
The reference to .38 Service CTG is to .38 Long Colt, which was the standard US handgun cartridge at the time. The .38 special is a stretched .38 long colt case, so both will chamber.
This model lacks the positive internal hammer block safety introduced during World War II and still in use today. It should be treated as a five shooter with the chamber under the hammer left empty. If dropped it could fire.
It also predates heat treated cylinders. Becuase of this it should only be fired with standard pressure lead ammo, no PLusP, +P+, jacketed or semi jacketed ammo. Firing any of these may result in a bulged cylinder. Although designed from the outset as a smokeless power gun, S&W did not start advertising all of their products as safe for smokeless until around 1906 to 1908, so there may have been a change in the steel used at that time.
It is a round butt K frame and aftermarket grips should fit.
Seven High
Member
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2004
- Messages
- 755
Old Fuff: If you are still around, do you remember any details of when the United States citizens sent small arms to England during WWII? Did the weapons come from citizens or the government? Did anyone get theirs back at the conclusion of the war? Were there receipts given for the weapons?
Happysniper1
Member
RADAGAST: thank you for the rapid reply! It is comforting to have manufacturing information on this piece.
Owner wanted me to do a thorough cleaning (I use ultrasonics as well as the traditional Hoppe's #9) and a trigger job on it....I have informed him of the vintage and recommended only a cleaning and possibly display only (no firing).
One of the things I do as part of a trigger job is to replace the main spring with aftermarkets (from Wolff)....should the owner desire, would a lighter weight aftermarket K-frame spring bar function the weapon...would anyone know or has tried? I prefer replacing over modifying, since the original parts could always be returned to restore the piece to "original" condition.
BTW, the grip panels are black hard plastic with the S&W logo on them (near top of each piece), checkered, and on the inside surfaces of the panels there are machining marks (like they were manually filed), and air bubbles in the material.
Would anyone know (rough guesstimate) what this pistol would be worth if sold to a collector?
Again, my thanks for any helpful information!
Owner wanted me to do a thorough cleaning (I use ultrasonics as well as the traditional Hoppe's #9) and a trigger job on it....I have informed him of the vintage and recommended only a cleaning and possibly display only (no firing).
One of the things I do as part of a trigger job is to replace the main spring with aftermarkets (from Wolff)....should the owner desire, would a lighter weight aftermarket K-frame spring bar function the weapon...would anyone know or has tried? I prefer replacing over modifying, since the original parts could always be returned to restore the piece to "original" condition.
BTW, the grip panels are black hard plastic with the S&W logo on them (near top of each piece), checkered, and on the inside surfaces of the panels there are machining marks (like they were manually filed), and air bubbles in the material.
Would anyone know (rough guesstimate) what this pistol would be worth if sold to a collector?
Again, my thanks for any helpful information!
Radagast
Member
The grips are hardened rubber. Back in the day a lot of the parts were hand fitted. Personally I wouldn't muck around with the internals, there have been some 15 design changes since that gun was made and new parts are not available.
Value in the condition described is probably $200 to $250. Shooter grade guns aren't particularly rare, as there were several million M&Ps made. In mint condition with box maybe $1600.
Value in the condition described is probably $200 to $250. Shooter grade guns aren't particularly rare, as there were several million M&Ps made. In mint condition with box maybe $1600.
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