On Not Slaughtering the Neighbors

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Owen

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Burlington, VT
So.

I almost shot someone last night.

I was lying in bed reading around 12:20, when I heard a knock on my back door. I inquired "Who's There!!" "!" and didn't hear a response, but the person knocked again. I grabbed the ol' GLOCKenspiel, and walked to the door.

When the person knocked again, I again asked who it was. The person on the other side of the door groaned "I need help." I thought it Harry, my next door neighbor. Harry is an old man, lives alone, and has some pretty serious medical problems.

I peeked out the window and couldn't see anybody. This was unusual because Harry always stands back from the door. So I weighed my options. If it wasn't Harry, I had my gun in my hand, and whoever it was probably had no idea of the hell I could unleash on them. 18 rounds of 9 x19 Black Talons in 3.5 seconds anyone? If it was Harry, there was no way I could leave him out there. Mr. Harry helped me quite a bit when I moved to Columbia, and I feel that I am somewhat in his debt, not to mention that he is my next door neighbor, which carries an obligation in it's own right.

I unlatched the deadbolt, and turned the door knob, at which point the person on the other side of the door started pushing the door open!! I had my foot right behind the door, so it couldn't be slammed open, and whoever was on the other side was pushing on the door. I shifted and slammed my shoulder into the door as hard as I could to get the door closed again.

At this point, the person on the other side of the door started crying. Definitely an old man. Did I just maim Harry? Keep in mind, I'm 29, and Harry has got to be 80, just had a hip replacement, and takes about 4 minutes to traverse the 100 feet between our houses.

I slowly opened the door, keeping my gun hand hidden behind the door frame. Standing, or wobbling, before me, was the drunk that lives at the end of the street. Apparently when I unbolted the door, he had been leaning against it for balance.

He wanted to use the phone because his old lady had kicked him out, after "she dun bit me on the arm, an' punched me in the mouf", and he needed a place to spend the night. So I closed and bolted the door, grabbed my cell phone, and returned, where I dialed the number for him, and got to listen to him tell his friend what had happened nine or twelve times. (At this point, I noticed that blood had started streaming down the side of his I face. I think I did that with the door.) He tried to step through the doorway several times. Each time I commanded him to step back. The one time he didn't do what I told him to do, I shoved him back about three feet with a palm to the sternum. After he finished the phone call, he thanked me, and offered to mow my lawn for me. I said "No thanks" and wished him a more pleasant evening.

The whole time I had my Glock in my hand, and I don't think he ever realized I had it. Most people, when seeing a gun unexpectedly, end up staring at it. He never even looked at my hand. The whole time I was either holding it behind my body, or behind the doorframe. I think I did an OK job. I used my voice to control him, by telling him to step back from the door, etc. I used measured but instantaneous aggressive violence when I thought he was pushing the door open. Considering I had a gun in my hand, and probably would have been justified in hosing the guy when he pushed on the door, and all I did was slam the door closed (HARD!), I think my response was well measured. I kept my trump card concealed the whole time, but ready for instantaneous use. Mr. Harry thinks this guy is responsible for some local burglaries, and, if the drunk even remembers the encounter, I'm sure I have left a strong impression on him.

The down side is that I weigh at least 70 pounds more than the guy, I'm at least 5 inches taller and I am at least 30 years younger. If I had shot the man, and ended up standing next to him in front of a jury, the big question would have been, did I really have to shoot someone I could have easily physically dominated? Of course, the answer is that I was in reasonable fear for my life. When someone tries to force their way into your house in the middle of the night...

Do you have any idea how hard it is to sleep when you have the adrenaline shakes?
 
"Do you have any idea how hard it is to sleep when you have the adrenaline shakes?"

yes, it gives me a terrible back ache.
 
I haven't had those for a while now, but you may as well stay up all night because chances are good your won't be able to sleep. It sounds like you handled it pretty well. Constraint was a good thing in this situation.
 
That's why they make security chains.

pACE-985259reg.jpg
 
Yea, chain would have helped with the pushing of the door, etc.
Sounds like you did pretty good though.
 
0020 is certainly not the time anyone expects visitors! Hard to be other than suspicious and also hard to know immediately how to play it out.

I guess in a worst case scenario it is possible to imagine a BG hell bent on gaining entry and either barging in or, even shooting thru the door! That would require very quick response, putting it mildly.

Flip side of coin - is your neighbor Harry - and so in this case it'd seem you pretty much did what was needed step by step. It is a fine dividing line tho - between controlling this sort of situation and reading it as something worse, and maybe over reacting. It's a hard call whichever way you look at it.

Turned out OK it seems - and probably not easy for anyone other than you to analyze.
 
I was just reading somewhere, can't for the life of me remember though where....that violent crimes are just that. Sudden and violent from start to finish. I have to admit that I had gotten complacent about carrying in the house. However, when you find yourself in the family room and someone suddenly kicks in your door upstairs how do you expect to get to your gun in the night stand or closet?? You can't, having guns hidden through out the house is another way, but if the weapon is not on your person in your control at all times you are not safe. I am carrying in house once again as far too many times we get lulled into a false sense of security of being safe in our homes. More and more these days we find we are not safe anywhere...
Seems to me you done good...no one is dead or hurt...adrenaline is a good thing....you are alive!!....Good job....mack
 
I've developed a tactic over the years that utilizes my black lab and my springer. If I know who is at the door, I generally lock them in the bedroom so whatever friend or family member is knocking doesn't get mobbed by the two dogs. If I DON'T know who's at the door, I let the dogs do their barking-thing and (even though they probably wouldn't hurt anyone) crack the door open to see who it is. If it's a person intent on doing harm, they will hear two dogs and if they bust down the door to get in, I'll at least have the dogs to discourage them while I run for my gun (which I am pretty complacent about carrying in the house, unfortunately). On reading the above posts, a chain sounds like a great idea.

Also, regarding the dogs, pretending to try to hold them back and barely keep them under control works great to politely hurry Jehova's Witnesses and other, less holy, salesmen on their way.
 
You were lucky it was a drunk and not a goblin who really wanted to get in. If it had been a goblin, wou would have been flat on your posterior the moment you allowed that door to start opening, and probably staring up into a sawed off shotgun.

"Security" chain? Who are you kidding? It doesn't require much of a kick to snap those things. They're fine for letting honest salesmen know you don't intend to open the door, but they won't keep out anyone who WANTS to come in.
 
carpettbaggerr

Those chains aren't just useless, they are dangerous because they give a false sense of security. My 7 year old could break one. And the screws they give you are __ this long. They pop right out with a little bit of pressure. If you want a security chain you need to make your own with some real chain and eyebolts.
 
An interesting narrative

Let me see if I have this correct.

Old guy comes to your door late at night and scares you. You take adequate precautions. Good for you. You didn't call the police, so you must not have been TOO frightened. Humm. Turns out, the visitor is not a huge, hulking, threatening, brute. Not a transient or homeless person looking for a handout. No, he's a householder, presumably a person of some means, however modest. A man of family. A pitiful, elderly, drunk, a person subject to some scorn, but, still, a resident of the neighborhood. Oh, yeah, he's desperate and he DID press on your door . . .
Considering I had a gun in my hand, and probably would have been justified in hosing the guy when he pushed on the door . . .
Click to expand...
Well, I don't know much about SC law, but your would be in DEEP trouble around here.
If I had shot the man, and ended up standing next to him . . . did I really have to shoot someone I could have easily physically dominated? Of course, the answer is that I was in reasonable fear for my life. When someone tries to force their way into your house in the middle of the night...
Click to expand...
Man, were you just gonna aim to flesh wound him? You PRAY the old dude could have lived to be in court --

Waugph! Well, what part of the story would you have changed when you told it? At what point did you really contemplate shooting the "intruder?"

Q: Mr. Owen, there's no record of a 9-1-1 call from you. If you were so alarmed, why didn't you try to get the police on the way to help you?

Q: You found it was someone you know, and learned what he wanted? Then you closed and bolted the door while you got your phone, keeping your Glock Pistol with, uh, 18 Black Talon cartridges in your hand all the while? Kept it right handy, didn't even put it in your pocket?

Q: And, after this man ALREADY tried to "force entry" into your home, you STILL didn't call the authorities, and you REOPENED the door?

Q: Okay, now - - How was his behavior different when you started shooting? And how many of those 18 deadly Black Talons did you fire?

Q: Is it true that Winchester hasn't made Black Talon ammunition since, uh, 1993? ;)

I notice in your blog account of this matter you ask: "How did I do?"
Uh, how so? Are you looking for praise for NOT gunning down the neighbor? Well, you did okay. You might want to take some of your April 15 "Buy A Gun Day" cash and go consult an attorney before such a situation arises again. Really.

Good luck.
Johnny
 
This is precisely why I have strong perimeter security. My front door is reinforced and well lit, has a large peephole, and I'm not opening it for anyone I don't recognize ~ no matter what they say. Bleeding? I'll call a paramedic. Just got held up? I'll dial the police. Car broken down? I'll phone for a tow. You're drunk? Geez, get the %^# out of here you blithering idiot. Go bother someone else.
 
If you shot the guy, methinks disparity of force would definitely be an issue (armed citizen bigger and stronger than drunk dudes) in a prosecutor's mind, not to mention whether use of deadly force was really warranted.

But I hear ya, I woulda been ticked off and called the cops cuz some drunken bum was bleeding on my porch late at night and tried to push his way into my home. Sound like you took command of the situation forcefully.

This reminds me of the time some Jehovah's Witnesses came by to say hello (depsite my driveway being clearly marked "private"), and I was cleaning a machine gun plainly visible on the kitchen table (next to the meat cleavers).

I greeted them with a nice wide grin on my face. I wanted to say "mmm, you look plump enough," but never got the chance.

They didn't want to stick around for tea and conversation. :D
 
Considering I had a gun in my hand, and probably would have been justified in hosing the guy when he pushed on the door . . .
Click to expand...

I'm with Johnny. If you would have shot this guy your life would become a complete disaster and you could very likely end up in jail for a long long time.

I'd give some more thought to how you view the use of deadly force. Sounds to me like you're not giving it enough respect.

- Gabe
 
I dunno, I might have called the cops instead of his friend. Never know what could happen.
 
Oh, I know if I shoot someone, regardless of the circumstances, I'm legally screwed.

I'm looking more for info on where I may have screwed up.

As far as justification, South Carolina has both a strong Castle Doctrine, and a Reasonable Man defense. The AG has said more than once that he won't prosecute someone who shoots an uninvited nighttime visitor in their home. Is someone forcing their way into your house not a reason to fear for your life? Keep in mind, I didn't know who it was until the second time I opened the door, and with that in mind, I really don't know the guy. I kinda make a point out of not spending time with drunks.

As far as shooting him when he came through the door, I was referring to the first time. I turned the door knob and the door slammed into my foot. That is what scared the hell out of me, and got the adrenaline pumping. I didn't know who was coming through. If he had hit the door hard enough to move my foot out of the way, I would say there was a good chance I would have shot him.

I didn't call the police right off, because I thought it was my next door neighbor. If I had known who it was right off, I wouldn't have answered the door. I didn't call when I realized who it was, because he was bawling his eyes out. Sorry, I have a soft spot for the pitiful.

A glock 17 doesn't fit in a pocket. I was wearing sweatpants, so no mexican carry either. Layout of the house precludes putting the gun down out of sight, but within easy reach. Remember, I recognize the guy, but only know him as the neighborhood drunk. Who knows if he is violent?

I have knocked on doors at night because I needed help. And I got the help I needed. If the guy had run off with my cell phone? So what, I have loss insurance on the phone. In the future, I think I may do the talking. I will have to think about it.

As far as the Black Talons go, my dad stockpiled them way back when. I shoot a magazine of them every 3 months or so. I only have three boxes left, so it's time to change soon.

As far as standing next to the guy in court; IIRC something like 80% of people shot with a handgun survive.
 
I'd say the big mistake was when you opened the door not knowing what you'd find on the other side. It was late at night and he wouldn't tell you who he was. I'd be pretty reluctant to unlock my house in those circumstances.
 
I lock the storm door and the real door. That way, I can open the real door and there's still a pane of glass between any late callers and I.

I've been thinking about upgrading to a level IV (Class IV? dont remember) door, basically, a decorative (but strong) security door, costs about $120 at Home Depot or Lowes. Some even use a thin steel sheet with lots of little holes stamped in it instead of a wire mesh, so you cant cut it with a utility knife like a normal screen.

Kharn
 
The door should have remained closed.

Let me start by saying I'm glad you're alright, and that you handled it OK, but I believe it should be a learning experience for all of us to think about.

I suggest you need some better way to look outside that door, such as a better peephole and some light. An inexpensive video camera is another option. I have a tiny "door" in my door that opens for talking to someone outside and is large enough to pass small items through, but not big enough for much else. The dead bolt requires a key to open from inside and is
too far from the little door anyway.

I think you took a risk in opening the door. If someone bashes the door in, you gain at least a few seconds to be ready, and the legal situation is much more clear cut. If you open the door and subsequently end up shooting someone, things may be murkier.

Glad you're OK,
Dirty Bob
 
I have one, he was just standing/leaning to close to the door for me to see him. A peep hole may have worked, but he was about 5'5" and there is a pretty good step up from the porch to the threshold.
 
Instead of a door chain a door prop or blocker, made or bought is a far better idea. our house has a block of 4x4 that seats against a bottom step that allows the door to be opened about 3 inches and then no farther without something big and strong breaking the door.

otherwise, not much else to say
 
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