One more thought about DA/SA speed..

[BobWright]

David E posted an interesting thread regarding speed comparing SA vs DA revolvers. One thing I noticed is that the start was "gun at low ready, thumb on uncocked hammer."

I have practiced the SA draw so that my hammer is cocked by the time the gun reaches "low ready" position, that is, sometime just after clearing leather, and falls just as the gun comes level. So, in effect, when the gun comes level, I have only a short trigger pull of about two pounds, as opposed to a long ten to twelve pound DA trigger pull.

I lack the timer to fully time this, but works for me.

Bob Wright

 

[BCRider]

I've been working on faster draw and first shot times in my Cowboy Action shooting. But one thing I'm not about to try is beginning to cock the hammer until the gun is up to about a 40 to 45 degree "low ready" position. I'm too worried about my thumb slipping off the hammer and putting one into the dirt within the DQ zone or possibly my toes.

I shoot duelist style and have big hands so I pretty much have to insert my trigger finger during the grab for the draw. Otherwise there's a HEAP of fumbling later in the cycle with the gun clear of the leather. So the only safety I have is not beginning to cock the hammer until I've got the gun aimed safely away from me.

It would be worth doing a few dry fire draws and after a few reps really start to look closely at the path the gun takes. I'll have to do this myself but it seems to me that the path of the draw is pretty much a sideways "L". The vertical movement of the gun coming up and clearing the holster, then the "elbow" where the rotation and push out begins. It's during this point where the cocking would start at a point where the gun is pointed well clear of the body. It also suggests that the cocking would be taking place more from a "high ready" position since the rotation is taking place up near the height of the armpit. From the "elbow" rotation we go on to the pushout where the cocking is completed and the thumb would come off the hammer and sighting takes place so that the shot can be taken when the sight picture is stable and clear.

At least that's how it seems without actually strapping on the rig and dry practice. I'll have to try some of that a bit later today to see how closely I'm visualizing it.

 

[David E]

David E posted an interesting thread regarding speed comparing SA vs DA revolvers. One thing I noticed is that the start was "gun at low ready, thumb on uncocked hammer."



I have practiced the SA draw so that my hammer is cocked by the time the gun reaches "low ready" position, that is, sometime just after clearing leather, and falls just as the gun comes level. So, in effect, when the gun comes level, I have only a short trigger pull of about two pounds, as opposed to a long ten to twelve pound DA trigger pull.



I lack the timer to fully time this, but works for me.



Bob Wright

Bob, duly noted, but someone properly drawing a DA revolver has started pulling the trigger during the draw, also leaving about 2 more pounds of pressure to fire the gun.

That said, I don't begin the trigger pull or hammer cocking until the muzzle is well clear of my body! As BCRider said, that's about "low ready," anyway.

If you're waiting to begin your DA pull once the gun is all the way out, you're doing it the slow way.

I figured hammer down on the SA would equate to the trigger being fully forward on the DA.

Plus, at the beep, as I began the push-out, I simultaneously cocked the hammer or began the trigger pull, so things still evened out.

 

[AFDavis11]

As long as the hammer is cocked by the time you get on target, I'm not sure it matters much. DavidE's single action speed was very fast.

 

[CraigC]

Yep, I start cocking the hammer as soon as the sixgun clears leather and my body parts. It should be cocked by the time I'm ready for a hip/point shot.

DavidE's single action speed was very fast.

I thought it was respectable before I realized it didn't include draw time.

 

[buck460XVR]

David E posted an interesting thread regarding speed comparing SA vs DA revolvers. One thing I noticed is that the start was "gun at low ready, thumb on uncocked hammer."

I have practiced the SA draw so that my hammer is cocked by the time the gun reaches "low ready" position, that is, sometime just after clearing leather, and falls just as the gun comes level. So, in effect, when the gun comes level, I have only a short trigger pull of about two pounds, as opposed to a long ten to twelve pound DA trigger pull.

I lack the timer to fully time this, but works for me.

Bob Wright

Kinda how it is when I hunt with my DA revolvers. I don't even seem to consciously cock the hammer, but it is cocked long before the gun is horizontal. So........first shot speed difference may be moot.

 

[David E]

I thought it was respectable before I realized it didn't include draw time.

Says the person who has no idea how fast his draw....or even his shot from low ready... might be.....

As I said in that thread, it wasn't about the draw time, it was about discovering how fast I could fire accurate follow-up shots one handed.

 

[CraigC]

We'll see.....

 

[David E]

We'll see.....

I hope so.

It'd be great to see how fast someone who champions the SA like you do can draw from a concealed carry holster.

 

[CraigC]

It was never about how fast I could draw compared to you or anyone else. But how little difference there is between the single action and other platforms that I am less proficient with.. That was the whole point.

 

[David E]

It was never about how fast I could draw compared to you or anyone else. But how little difference there is between the single action and other platforms that I am less proficient with.. That was the whole point.

No, that was your whole point, even tho you had no objective evidence to support it.

MY point related to the ability to rapidly fire accurate shots one handed, as I view that as a deficiency of the single action that cannot be ignored just because someone "feels" they are as fast or faster with the SA as they are with other action types.

Since it's a serious deficiency, I suggested that:

A) it should be acknowledged.

B) it should be practiced enough to minimize it as much as possible.

Using two hands, the practiced pistolero gives up little, if anything, to the other action types for the first 5-6 shots.

Everyone knows if you have to reload a single action during a gunfight, you're pretty much done. (Tho I'd still carry a reload for after the fight.)

Speed of the first shot wasn't ever an issue with me, other than to challenge the naive assertion that a single action is "fastest with the first shot." Remember, we are talking concealed carry holsters.

I acknowledge that a single action can be very fast to the first shot, but I also acknowledge that more can go wrong during a 3/4 second draw than with a DA.

So that leaves shooting accurately one handed.

You said the time difference wouldn't be as much as I thought. I said it'd be MORE than YOU thought. We could both be right.

I really didn't have a preconceived notion about the speed difference, but as I've reflected on it the past few days, I thought the difference would be greater, if only by another 1/10th of a second or so.

One big advantage of the SA is that you can shoot more powerful ammo without sacrificing much regarding rate of fire. Obviously, there's a threshold that can't be crossed for this to be true.

I like single actions. Got my first one in 1976 and I still shoot it.

 

[murf]

you two need to knock it off and quit stealing threads.

murf

 

[David E]

My posts related to the OP, where my name was mentioned. It was not my intent to steal the thread.

 

[CraigC]

A) it should be acknowledged.

B) it should be practiced enough to minimize it as much as possible.

Yeah, I think I said that.

...even tho you had no objective evidence to support it.

I need objective evidence to justify my decision on what I carry to you???

One big advantage of the SA is that you can shoot more powerful ammo without sacrificing much regarding rate of fire.

I don't agree with that. In which case relative experience with the platforms in question comes into play. DA shooters exercise their index finger, single action shooters exercise their thumb. Therein lies the difference.

No, that was your whole point...

Against which you argued, vehemently. Enough so that you started three more threads to discuss it.

 

[silicosys4]

^^Since you refuse to get a shot timer, or give any examples of shot time with a SA vs DA and first shot on target...but instead decide to jump into the thread simply to denigrate the skills of someone who actually did, your statements are...and I quote you from another thread...."just more rhetoric from someone who doesn't know".

Go get a shot timer and back your statements up if you are going to claim someones time is unimpressive because its not drawn from concealment. So far you are the only person I've seen here who has said they themselves are proficient, but that David E's posted times are unimpressive. Lets see your time to first shot from ready, then from concealment. Lets see your basis for comparison here for which you feel justified in making these statements. You make a great deal of this proficiency you say you have with SA's, yet you will not actually test how good you are, and how good you are with a SA as compared to a DA revolver. You really have no idea how proficient you actually are or if your statements hold water, and neither do we.

As to the OP's question, I can see perhaps the first shot being very slightly faster with a SA if one is used to thumb cocking on the draw or when raising, but subsequent shots I think would go to the DA. Unless you are fanning, the physical motions involved with thumb cocking a SA are going to add time as opposed to just pulling the trigger of a DA.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

The horse is dead

 

[buck460XVR]

The horse is dead

Yeah.....but was he shot DA or SA?

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Yeah.....but was he shot DA or SA?

Ah! Yes! Thanks for bringing me back to reality.

 

[CraigC]

I picked up a Competition Electronics Pocket Pro shot timer from Midway.



Took it out with this sixgun, a USFA Rodeo II .38Spl, box-stock except for new springs. Shooting factory Remington ammo.




Using the parameters set within the previous thread, five shots at 5yds, from the low ready position with thumb on uncocked hammer, the preliminary results were as follows:

1.5secs using two hands, cocking with the weak side thumb.

2.6secs using one hand.

Bearing in mind that this was a quick and dirty preliminary test. Due to our home construction project, I have been unable to do much shooting in the last 8months and am just now getting my new handloading bench setup. I've also never shot against a timer so my reaction time is probably a wee bit slow. I bought the Remington ammo just to have something to shoot and because I needed the brass. My standard .38Spl handload consists of a 158gr cast at +P levels.

Using a holster that is unnecessarily sticky due to a pigskin lining, I was able to get from leather to five shots in around 3secs for two handed and a second slower for one. More detailed and comprehensive test results to follow in the coming weeks/months. If there is a lot of static about the honesty in reporting these numbers then I just won't bother posting them.

 

[BobWright]

CraigC:

That gun ought to be drawn from a holster like you made for me!

Bob Wright

 

[CraigC]

I was actually going to make one like yours for myself. Thinking about it this afternoon in fact! Right now I'm using an El Paso Saddlery Threepersons and it's a little sticky on the draw because of the pigskin lining.

 

[40-82]

CraigC,

That's some fast shooting. I personally think that I'm a shade faster with a single action for the first shot than with a double action or a 1911. If I'm off balance or in low light I know I can point the old single action better. What I would be curious to see you try--I'd try it myself if I had a shot timer--would be how much time it would take you to make hits on five different targets with the single action. My idea--I haven't proved it--is that in the movement necessary to switch from one target to the next that you would almost entirely negate the advantage of the double action or the semi-auto. Very few people could get five hits at five yards in that amount of time with anything.

 

[CraigC]

I've actually got more practice doing that than a single target. Five years of diligent work and tens of thousands of rounds in point shooting at play. I'll be doing some of that as time allows. I don't expect much difference in the times because as you said, it takes time to transition and that can be done while coming down from recoil and cocking the hammer. Depends on how far apart the targets are.

I think the advantage the SA has over other platforms is strictly in the grip design.

 

[David E]

If there is a lot of static about the honesty in reporting these numbers then I just won't bother posting them.

You got a timer! Good for you! I'm sure you'll find using it enlightening. I know I do.

I don't think anyone will question the honesty.

You now have a shot timer. It's unnecessary to use words like "about" or "around" when reporting a time.

To avoid confusion, please list distance, target, number of shots and start position need to be listed. You referenced the drill I SUGGESTED in the other thread, but you didn't mention the paper plate, but I presume you used one. And made all your hits.

When drawing from the holster, the start position needs to be specified. The general default start position is "hands naturally at sides." If it's something different, it needs to be stated. Also if it's from concealment or not. Don't forget to list your first shot time.

Looks like I'll need to get my SA holster out....

Congrats again on the timer purchase.

 

[CraigC]

Like I said, this was quick and dirty, preliminary work. I didn't record any of the results. Hence the vague terms "about" and "around". Details will come later when I have the time to collect them.

Not a paper plate but a similarly sized target.

Hands at my sides.