Open call to Guncrafter Industries : Ballistic gelatin test of .50GI cartridge

[Brass Fetcher]

I have tried contacting Guncrafter Industries twice in the recent past, regarding the acceptability to them of conducting a ballistic gelatin test (or tests) of their new cartridge and gun, to no avail.

This test would illustrate the superiority (yes) of the .50GI cartridge over the .45ACP, if the bullets used for the cartridge work for the range of velocity at which they travel. What I need, of course, is the ammunition and a gun to launch it. I have worked with firearms manufacturers in the past, testing their products in ballistic gelatin, and can provide references.

Can anyone please help me get into contact with someone at GCI, regarding such a test?

Thank you,

JE223

 

[GunNut]

I'd be interested in seeing the result too.

I wish I had some pull there to help you.

Steve

 

[mbartel]

Probably won't happen. I don't think Mr. Zimmerman will ship you a nearly $3000 gun, plus ammo, just because you have references. I'm sure you are honest and very trustworthy, but it's all about business risks vs. gains. Anyway...I can tell you this about the factory ammo. None of the jacketed factory loads will expand in ballistic gelatin. The reason is simple. All of the jacketed bullets they use were meant for the much higher velocity of the .50AE. At 775-875fps, they will not open up. However, I had Magnum Reasearch make me a cylinder for my .50 BFR in .50GI. I use a lot of Power Pistol under the Rainier 275 gr. plated hollow point for over 1200 fps in my BFR. Pressures that are WAY TOO HIGH for the 1911 they make, but are just fine in the revolver. The cases are very strong indeed, and the primer pockets are still snug after 3 full power loadings. I don't know how these loads would perform in gelatin, but to watch a 2 gallon jug of water get hit with one, is awesome...you just don't think this much power can come from a pistol case that is shorter than the .45 acp. I have been to their website, and there are a lot of online reprints of articles on their guns and ammo, so I guess they are satisfied with that amount of coverage. Hope you can change their mind though...good luck

 

[Brass Fetcher]

mbartel,

Thank you for the info regarding the .50GI. I also think that the price of the pistol would tend to discourage them from lending it to most anyone for testing. If your information is correct regarding the absence of bullet expansion in gelatin, the .50GI is in serious need of a bullet 'tuned' for its range of velocities. A 50 caliber FMJ is less effective than a .38 Special wadcutter. Assuming a FMJ with 0.500" diameter, the permanent cavity should be at most 0.667 * 0.500" = 0.334" , while the permanent cavity of the .38 Special FWC will be 1 * 0.355" = 0.355" permanent cavity. Such a bullet will penetrate far beyond 16" from a snubnose, and I assume that a .50GI will go deeper than 16", as well.

I understand their concerns about further popularizing the information about bullet penetration/expansion from the .50GI. But, ignoring the truth never fixes the problem, and the .50GI is a cartridge that should be an industry standard, given the 'correct' bullets are used to maximize expansion for a penetration 12.0" < x < 16.0" in ballistic gelatin. It has the potential to handily outperform the .45ACP for self-defense applications and I hope that GCI gets back to us on this.

 

[RyanM]

Where'd .667 come from? MacPherson says the coefficient of drag constant for FMJ roundnose is .57, vs. .83 for a wadcutter. Value of phi, the ratio of the volume of tissue crushed relative to a wadcutter, is 0.687. Given approximately equal penetration, phi is effectively the ratio of the areas of the holes. Works out to a 0.414" hole for the .50 GI. My calculator estimates .459", roughly cylindrical, in the first 16" of penetration before it starts to taper (total penetration 30.25").

 

[Brass Fetcher]

I couldn't recall the shape factor for a FMJ, so I took a generous guess, knowing that a full wadcutter is 1.0. IIRC, the permanent cavity diameter from a typical JHP is 66% the diameter of the expanded bullet. That is where the 0.667 came from.

 

[RyanM]

No, that one isn't right either. An expanded JHP's coefficient of drag constant is 0.68, so phi is 0.819.

Actual rules of thumb, according to MacPhereson:

Sphere: 65.4%
Spitzer: 69.4%
90 deg cone: 79.2%
Trunc cone: 81.4% (meplat size ~1/2 cal)
Semi-wad: 81.4% (meplat size ~1/2 cal)
Roundnose: 82.9%
Expanded: 90.5%
Wadcutter: 100%

Assuming no deformation takes place. Most pistol JHPs have a calculated average crush diameter of about 80%, due to the initially small wound track.

The hole observed in a person may be smaller, however, due to involuntary muscle contractions and other factors.

 

[crucible]

I can't comment on the technical stuff here, but I too would like to see some testing on the .50 GI, a platform and caliber that I admire the gumption of the company that came up with it (and one I'd love to play with personally too).

Though I suspect that if the ammo doesn't perform as well as a more well known round of .45acp of say HST2 flavor, it probably stems from the fact that there's simply too few suppliers for that caliber rather than anything else, and if the platform survives, perhaps more ammo manufacturers will provide differing and better performing designs. (Something like the design of short barrel Gold Dots come to mind.)

Of course .5 hole is...exactly that.

 

[mbartel]

Just my two cents here.....If anyone can bring a .50GI to the masses, at an affordable price, it would be Taurus. If a good .50GI 1911 platform ever came on the market at less than a grand, there would be a huge response from the shooting public. Only then would the bullet makers like Speer, start to develop a "low-velocity" .50 bullet that would give impressive ballistic performance. I really don't see why a mass produced .50 1911 is not happening. With modern CNC design, engineering, and production, and a working pistol as a model, there are no trial and error cost factors. I mean ...look at the Desert Eagle...a far more complicated design that is mass produced every day. There is every flavor of 1911s mass produced every day, in several different calibers, from .22LR to .45acp. Why is a .50 caliber so different that the only guns made in that caliber cost 3 times what the average 1911 costs. A firearm does not need 40 hours of handfitting just because the chambering is 11% larger in diameter. Numerous other worthy cartridges have faded into history, because they never made it into the affordable mass market. The .50GI will most likely suffer the same fate. Personally, I think it is a great addition to the 1911 lineup, as it adds a whole new dimension to a boring class of handguns. Let me quantify the term "boring" for a moment...I am constantly amazed by the huge number of variations on the 1911 platform. To justify a "NEW MODEL", the gun makers only have to change a barrel length, or change a checkering pattern, or change the sights, or change the grips, or change the finish, or mix and match all of their features into some variation that hasn't been done before by them. They claim to have the "CUSTOM" features like the lowered & flared ejection port, beavertail grip safety, speed hammer, etc. Gimme a break please.....the vast majority of 1911s all have these features, so they are in reality "STANDARD" features. Those might have been "CUSTOM" 15-20 years ago, but not now. After a while one becomes jaded to the "NEW" models that are constantly coming out. Oh Yeah...that "NEW" Commander Framed Custom Carry Titanium Desert Camo Operator II Night Sight model is out. The only difference between it and last years model, is that this one has grips made from laminated cockroach wings. Sorry for the long post....I guess that was four cents worth...

 

[Brass Fetcher]

It does seem that many good cartridges have faded into obscurity, and some wildcat cartridges that never 'made it', because one or more of the three requirements for acceptance were not met.

Those being : a shooting public that was excited about the cartridge/willing to spend a reasonable amount of money extra to cover the costs to the company of the new tooling/design; a company that was willing to mass produce the caliber, loaded with bullets that are both attractive to the consumer and effective in actual use; and a company that chambered the new load in a familiar and attractive platform.

I see a great deal of excitement from the shooting public about the .50GI, so 1/3 of the requirements are met. Like an earlier poster said, a company like Taurus could come along and make a less custom gun in this caliber, such that it was more affordable. So that is a potential for 2/3 of the requirement. The ammo, well, my idea is to get the reloading dies and fire cast lead hollowpoints. I know that pure lead bullets have not been as 'sexy' as JHP for many years, but they do illustrate well the capabilities of a pistol bullet, jacketed or not, in terms of expansion and penetration.

To give an idea of the size of an expanded .50GI vs. an expanded .45ACP, assume that both bullets expand to 1.5 times their original diameter.

So the .45ACP is 0.452" * 1.5 = 0.678" expanded diameter. The surface area of this bullet is 0.361 square inches.

The .50GI, is 0.500" * 1.5 = 0.750" expanded diameter. The surface area of this bullet is 0.442 square inches, giving a bullet hole that is 1.22 times the diameter of a .45ACP. Given the same ballpark velocity and sectional density, the penetration depth by such a bullet should be similar to the .45ACP as well.

Don't know about you all, but I'm pretty excited about those numbers!

 

[Warren]

I so want one of these guns but I cannot let go of the money. I could buy a nice rifle with that cash and have money left over.

I like the Taurus idea. I'm sure they are aware of the round. I wonder what it would take to get them to tool up to produce a gun in 50 G.I.

Hamilton Bowen rechambered an SA revolver into 50 G.I. maybe he has one or knows where one is that could be lent to you.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

Thank you Warren. I will try to get in contact with your person next week. The other approach for this test, is to get another gun chambered for the cartridge. Definately a good idea ... anyone know anyone who knows anyone with a gun chambered in .50GI?

 

[Socrates]

Wonder if Hawk bullets have a bullet that would work for this gun? What's the diameter, .500 or .510?

S

 

[Brass Fetcher]

Socrates,

Thanks for the link. I assume that the bullet diameter for the .50GI is 0.500", since it uses .50AE bullets. It looks to me like the bullet listed as :"300 grains x .025 HP...........$33.50" would be the one to go with, if any of them. I have an email in to them to see what velocities they are talking about when they say the bullets with the 0.025" walls are designed for lower velocity.

JE223

 

[Brass Fetcher]

Update:

I just got a nice email from Hawk bullets. It seems that they don't make any 0.500" bullets that would expand at such a low velocity. Any other ideas for a commercial source of jacketed bullets?

The next possibility, and a good one (just a lot less 'sexy' than a JHP), is a pure cast lead hollowpoint. Of course, assuming the best case - that our efforts here lead to the commercial acceptance of the .50GI - premium JHPs from the big ammo manufacturers would soon follow. Imagine a 50 caliber Gold Dot- or Hydra-Shok- firing demon on your waist!

I will give Guncrafter Industries a call tomorrow and see what they have to say. If you would like to see a gelatin test like this, now might be a good time to flood their email inbox with statements to that effect.

Email - [email protected]

Thank you,

JE223

 

[Brass Fetcher]

Update

OK. I called Guncrafter twice today and got a busy signal both times. So, I sent an email to Victor Tibbets of GI a few minutes ago.

Essentially, it appears that I can find molds at least for the .50 caliber handgun bullet. Does anyone know of cast bullet molds that produce .50 caliber hollowpoint bullets, or roundnose bullets in the neighborhood of 300gr? It would be preferable to get a proper hollowpoint mold, as consistantly recreating a hollowpoint cavity from a round nose (using lathe or milling machine) is more difficult than it sounds, at least it has been difficult in the past for me to do so.

Thank you,

JE223

 

[Brass Fetcher]

Something good is happening...

Please stay tuned.

JE223

 

[Warren]

Damn straight.

 

[Cosmoline]

What are you guys smoking? Think about it for a second. Why the devil do you need a HALF FRICKING INCH BULLET to expand? It's A FRICKING HALF INCH BULLET!

 

[dao]

What are you guys smoking? Think about it for a second. Why the devil do you need a HALF FRICKING INCH BULLET to expand? It's A FRICKING HALF INCH BULLET!

Because a bullet expanded to 0.75 " make bigger hole than a non-expanded 0.50 " bullet...

 

[Brass Fetcher]

The .50GI is capable of 0.75"-0.80" expanded diameter bullets with 12" penetration in gelatin, with a 300gr hollowpoint designed to work at 700 ft/sec.

The best expanded diameter-to-original diameter ratio that I have gotten was a 230gr .45ACP out of a 5" barrel - that is the expanded bullet was 1.6 times the original diameter. A good rule of thumb is that you can expect 1.5 times the original diameter in a good hollowpoint.

 

[Cosmoline]

Expansion is not Always Useful

The .50 GI is a low velocity, low sectional density round. In some ways it's a ballistic throwback to the big bore bulldogs of the Victorian era. Expansion is only going to put the brakes on an already slow slug and limit the damage it will do. Why you'd want to limit the slug to a foot or less of penetration is beyond me, unless you adhere to absurd notions of "energy dump."

 

[Brass Fetcher]

Well, the FBI standard minimum penetration depth is 12". The nice thing about this cartridge, I believe at this point, is that it can be made to do many things - for the light-and-fast fans, it could perform like the 165gr +P .45ACP - just more damaging. It can do everything that a .45ACP can do - while making a hole that is 22% larger than a .45ACP.

 

[RyanM]

300 gr at 700 fps would be capable of expanding to .779" and still penetrate 13", according to my new and improved calculator. Recoil impulse would be only marginally higher than 230 gr at 875 fps.

275 fps at 875 fps, the other factory load, could expand to .809" and go 13" deep with the right bullet. Recoil impulse about equivalent to a stiff .44 SPL or light .44 magnum, with 240 gr at 1000 fps.

The former would destroy about 54.3 grams of tissue in the first 9 inches, while the latter would destroy 57.0 grams. A .45 ACP 230 gr 875 fps hollowpoint with .734" expansion and 13" penetration would destroy 48.4 grams in 9", in comparison.

So a 12% to 18% increase in tissue damaging ability, for a 4% to 20% increase in recoil impulse. Not too bad.

 

[mbartel]

Rainier Bullets makes a 275gr. plated hollow point bullet. That is what I use in my .50GI MR BFR at 1200+ fps. That soft lead plated bullet should expand at the lower velocities of the .50GI Model 1 1911. In fact, I ordered a 500 count box from Guncrafters last year, and I'm just about out of them....time to order another 500. In the Model 1, that bullet should be able to reach at least 975 fps, and maybe right at 1000. Because the bullet has a very short bearing surface, it can be seated a little farther out than the 300 grainers, which will give more powder capacity and/or less pressure. Careful manipulation of powder charges, and seating depths, will give max velocities with safe pressures. Please understand the HUGE difference between the BFR and the GI Model 1. The Model 1 operates at .45 acp pressures, while the BFR can handle .454 Casull pressures. That is why the revolver can handle loads 300+ fps higher than the .50GI 1911 can.