Opinions on 7.62x25mm pistol and gelatin testing?

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in essence, I would not feel horribly underequipped with a vz52 and a good supply of ammuntion. I've also NEVER had a jam with it, which is more than can be said for nearly every other gun i've ever owned.
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Bottleneck cartridges tend to feed better than tapered types like 9mm Luger, and much better than straight wall types like .45 ACP. The shortcomings of the VZ-52 pertain to atrocious tolerances, poor ergonomics, inadequate safety, and extreme fragility. Its bore specs are extremely inconsistent. Its trigger is not only stiff, but punishing with harsh slap on the rebound. Its decocker cannot be trusted to lower the hammer safely; its firing pin is guaranteed to fracture from dry firing; and its chamber is given to catastrophic failure with marginal overloads. It is a fun toy, but far from an adequate combat arm.
 
To try to keep this one on-topic, I will answer some of my own questions, with my opinions:

What are your opinions of testing a cartridge such as a hot 7.62x25mm with a 85 or 100gr Hornady XTP bullet?
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... I've done things with modified .32ACP and .25ACP loads, hoping to draw the attention of a large manfacturer to the fact that there might be a market for effective factory loads in those calibers. If not that, then at least such a bullet is achievable by easy modification to current bullet designs. That is kind of my idea with the 7.62x25mm, as well.

Does anyone carry such a handgun for CCW? Is this a popular gun for 'non-gun people'?
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When I think 'non gun-person', I think of 'person who is realistic enough to know that they may one day be responsible for their safety, but don't share my enthusiasm with guns as a hobby'. These same people, IMO are drawn to handguns in the lower-price category, ala CZ 7.62x25mm, etc.

Thank you.
 
I would love to see more people chime in on the CZ52. Everything I had read up to this point had seemed to indicate that it was well-respected, if a little too complex. The roller lock mechanism was regarded as one reason it was accurate and relatively smooth recoiling, for such a high-velocity round. It seems to me that, aside from the decocker, which could probably be ignored, the real new issue is the weak chamber.

Clark's posts were the first where I had read about the chamber problem, and there are a fair number of people experimenting with the pistol. I had considered purchasing one for a truck gun, but this has made me reconsider.
 
This is my opinion of people's opinions who are too critical of the CZ52:

-The gun is built like a tank and I don't care what anyone says about the chamber walls. I'll get into this later on in the post.
-My two CZs are tight as far as this gun novice can tell, but mine are in great shape for the most part.
-I have no problem with the trigger pull, but that could be because mine are in pretty good shape, or maybe because I'm not a weak wuss. I can, and have fired a few hundred rounds in a session and it is not my finger that hurts the most. Maybe I'm just used to it.
-The only times I have ever had problems firing them was when I used the 9mm drop in barrel and when I used some ancient surplus ammo. Using S&B ammo in the 7.62x25 I have never, ever had a problem with feed or ejection.


Now the problems people discussed.

-The chamer walls crap is bogus. The Czheck military ammo was loaded to fire over 1,600 feet per second and they took that abuse for years. The S&B ammo shoots at around 1,500 FPS and some of that Romanian and Russian surplus ammo I have heard only shoots at around 1,200-1,300 FPS so the TT has not seen nearly as powerful ammo to be truly compared as far as ruggedness goes.
-The tolerances may be partly due to some crappily made examples, but since they fired some powerful ammo in them for decades, many issued ones are going to loosen up I would think.
-The few kabooms I have heard about were most likely due not to slightly hot loads, but some VERY hot loads such as sub machine gun ammo getting mixed up with some surplus ammo. Also there has been some very suspect combloc ammo that has caused kabooms and failures that may have been loaded hot due to lack of quality control, or maybe the way the chemicals reacted the pressure of the burning powder was many times normal.
-"complex mechanism"?????? I am no gunsmith, but it seems straightforward to me and only as complex as a Browning locking system in a 1911.
-I have never heard of a good condition magazine coming apart in the middle of shooting, and I have never had that problem with any of mine, even the ones in poor condition. Hell, I can't even imagine how one could come apart in the well.
-The people who claim that most criminals, muggers or robbers don't wear armor and so there is no real need for such a powerful round, well they don't live in the Washington DC area. Sure it may be a true statement to say most criminals don't wear bulletproof armor, but there are many cases in the area paper involving a police shooting, an armed robbery/hostage situation, invasion and even muggings wear the criminal was wearing, or suspected of wearing body armor.

There are some things I do agree with however.

-Of my two guns, one will slightly dimple a primer when using the decocking lever, but it does not fire an primed, empty case. Enough to make me worry though and not use it on that gun.
-The grip is too thin for my big hand which lead to some discomfort. Some Hogue slip-on grips helped a lot.
-No matter how practiced one might be with loading the magazine, it is still awkward enough to be difficult to load in a stressful situation compared to something like an 1911A1.
-Over penetration may be a problem, but this hooey about if you reload your own softpoints or use special soft point ammo would set you up for a lawyer claiming you intended to kill is just an overreaction IMO. I would worry more about hitting someone with an overpenetration using any round much more than I would worry about the easily countrered and probably rare lawyer making such a ridiculous claim.....I say easily countered because both sides get to speak in a trial and using "special ammo" or homemade ammo utilizing soft point ammo is for public safety purposes and all pointing out that the special ammo prevents over-penetration was intended to save innocent lives. If someone's lawyer didn't bring that up, then it wouldn't matter what bullets were used because the person is screwed with a lawyer like that.
-The gun is a little too large and big I suspect for CC, but if I was in an open carry state and I wore a gun, I would be perfectly fine wearing one.
-The firing pin does break easily they say, but there are aftermarket makes and some designes that totally prevents this.
-With my one CZ I would carry cocked with the safety on, but I would not be completely comfortable. The big problem with carrying with the hammer down is that, on my pistols and my hand at least, the hammer is a bitch to cock with just the thumb.


Back to the topic. I would love to see the test results of the round in ballistic gellatin. I also would like to see a gellatin test with a human skull under a kevlar helmet.
The Box of Truth guys shot some pistol rounds at some Kevlar helmets and the only one to penetrate was the 7.62x25 round and it blew up the milk jug filled with water that was underneath, but that may not mean it still had enough power to penetrate the skull after going through the helmet.
 
The Czheck military ammo was loaded to fire over 1,600 feet per second and they took that abuse for years. The S&B ammo shoots at around 1,500 FPS and some of that Romanian and Russian surplus ammo I have heard only shoots at around 1,200-1,300 FPS so the TT has not seen nearly as powerful ammo to be truly compared as far as ruggedness goes.
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The Czech military ammo throwing its bullets at 1,600 feet per second appears to be an urban legend. Here is the most comprehensive 7.62x25mm ammunition survey available online. Draw your own conclusions. It remains that the only known test of VZ-52 found it wanting in strength in comparison to the Tokarev TT-33 and the Mauser C96.
 
So instead of 1500 fps it got bumped up to 1600 with urban rounding? Doesn't stand out among internet rumors. Of course, other surplus ammo chronoed to 1550fps, so who's to say another batch of Czech ammo wasn't hotter? I've seen load data ranging from 1200 fps max to 1600 for 85-90grn bullets. One of the loads listed as "too hot" is 6.3 grns Unique with an 85 grn FMJ @ 1382 fps. Makarov.com has a load of 6.6 grn Unique for a 90-93 grn jacketed bullet @1500 fps- the "sierra accuracy load."
I just don't know who's internet load data to trust with my fingers anymore!
 
CZ 52 roller system weak? Same system used in the MG42 in 8 X 57 at 1200 RPM. Bad workmanship? The Czechs have been the standard for quality gunsmithing for centuries. 7.62 X 25 not an effective defense stopper cartridge? Tell that to the WWII Nazis and Korean War GIs. Accurate? Most accounts show it to be the most accurate military pistol ever made. Would I take one to a gunfight? Damn right!
 
I have to agree that the roller system doesn't seem all that complex to me. No links, bushings, tilting barrels, etc. I find it very easy to strip!
The trigger on my gun is fine, too! About 5 lbs., I'd guess. No trigger slap, either. Mine is an unissued '53, maybe this is a problem with rearsenaled guns? My decocker works fine, too. Oh, and my other handgun is a High Standard Supermatic Citation, so I knows a good trigger when I sees it!
Why is it that we get so caught up on this gun vs. that when it comes to self defense? Any gun is better than no gun, and almost any gun is better than a Lorcin or Jennings. Shot placement and a good dose of common sense would seem to be the most important considerations if something bad were to take place in a home.

P.S. Oh, wait, I remember why! Because it's fun!
 
As far as the round goes in another test, one of the recent Military Surplus special issues put out by Guns and Ammo mentioned the effectiveness of the round against the older style US steel pot helmet. It's in the article on the Nagant pistol.

The little Nagant revolver only put a dent in the helmet, but the 7.62x25 round from a Tok put a perfectly round hole in the helmet, blew a cavity through a melon inside, and dented the OTHER side of the helmet.

Good round.
 
Here is one account. This weekend I fired two three shot groups with my cz52 that measured 2 1/4 inches at 50 yards. I used czech and russian surplus ammo and while the point of impact changed the groups were the same. The 7.62x25 is capable of awesome accuracy in the cz52. While shooting two weeks ago I noticed that the casing from one of the Czech rounds had split along the length of the casing, there was no bulge at all and the gun never missed a beat. I wouldn't compare my 53 year old CZ to a modern gun for carry but that doesn't mean we have mothing to learn about the ammo? I would love to see a modern gun chambered for this ammo. Its flat shooting, powerful, and penetrates well. It would be a great small game round and I would love to see a modern gun made using this type of lockwork and ammo.

By the way, there were witnesses to my groups and I will post pics of the groups on my thread about my CZ but you'll still have to trust me on that. I had a hard time believing it when I shot them.
 
On another note, this thread was started because someone was posing a question about the merits of doing some gelatin testing with the 7.62 from a pistol chambered for it. Personally, I would love to see some good gelatin testing with the 7.62 from a CZ or a Tokarev. It would be really cool if they threw in some of the other military rounds like the .45, 9mm, 9x18, etc.. and compared thier effectiveness against flak jackets, body armor, heavy clothing, metal, glass, etc.......And also loaded them using some quality hollowpoints to see how that would perform. I would be interested to see what an 85gr XTP or gold dot would do at 1500fps.

By the way. I happen to like my CZ52 very much. I traded a "modern" 9mm for it and I don't regret it one bit.
 
Michael, I am not saying your are wrong, but the report you cite:
The Czech military ammo throwing its bullets at 1,600 feet per second appears to be an urban legend. Here is the most comprehensive 7.62x25mm ammunition survey available online. Draw your own conclusions. It remains that the only known test of VZ-52 found it wanting in strength in comparison to the Tokarev TT-33 and the Mauser C96.
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states that the CZ52 is stronger than the Tokarev, in the section entitled "dangerous surplus warning". Also, where the barrel burst from the bad Bulgarian ammo, the barrel burst at the top, not the bottom.

This is a quote from that report (referencing the overloaded Bulgarian ammo):
"This ammunition will destroy weaker designs such as the TT-33 or the C-96. Fortunately, the incidents reported to date only involve use with the stronger CZ-52 pistols and no serious injuries have resulted from its use."

I personally would love to see this issue resolved. I really want a 7.62x25 pistol, but am waiting to see which way to go.
 
I must have gotten a bad gun. :(

I bought my cz52 at a gunshow a few years ago. It's reliable but it couldn't hit the braod side of a barn from the inside. :banghead:

I get 6" groups at 7 yards on an indoor range with no wind using slow aimed fire! It looks like a shotgun pattern. I keep reading all these accounts about how accurate they are and wonder "How?". Guess mine's just been shot out or something.
 
Does anyone carry such a handgun for CCW? I have never owned anything from the ComBloc, not because I don't like the guns, but for reasons I will keep to myself. Is this a popular gun for 'non-gun people'?

Thank you,

JE223

JE223,

I hope to God no one uses this as a CCW. Don't get me wrong, it's a neat pistol for historical purposes and I own two of them. Here's why I don't like them for Conceal and Carry (no opinions were harmed in the making of this post):

First off, the SD ammo choices are basically limited to FMJ, which moving at 1650 fps, tends to overpenetrate.
Second, the plaform is huge, it cannot be easily concealed.
Third, how does one carry this SA safely? It can't be carried "Cocked and Locked" like the 1911. The Safety is effectively a de-cocker, which puts the hammer down. One has to recock the hammer in order to bring the pistol back on line. In the heat of battle, the shooter might panic and not be able to bring it up on time.
Fourth, it seems that because of the price, the pistol is deemed a "bargain" and at 120-150 bucks, it's not bad. However, one would be better off waiting a paycheck or two and purchase a used police handgun.
Fifth, Reliability. For the life of me, I can't bet my life on a 50 year old former Communist pistol that fires mostly surplus FMJ ammunition, with crappy sites, and no way to carry it in Condition One.

That's my opinion... that's all.
 
-I have never heard of a good condition magazine coming apart in the middle of shooting, and I have never had that problem with any of mine, even the ones in poor condition. Hell, I can't even imagine how one could come apart in the well.
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I have. On more than one occassion. The magazine base plate comes loose while the gun is in mid-recoil. Then the spring, follower, and remaining ammunition all follow suit, leaving nothing but the body of the magazine in the gun.
 
cz52

Silverlance's experience most resembles mine.
I enjoy a pistol that reliably hits at 100 yrds!
Why is the CZ52 harder to carry / conceal than the 1911?
My ONLY caveat is that I get right at 10% failure to fire with the surplus ammo I use. A better quality ammo and I would not be adverse to carrying this for seld defense! Then tho I am comfortable with the j-frame S&W, and the Makarov, which I seem to carry daily.
Please do the test on the ammo/gelitin I would love to see this round appreciated as I feel it deserves.
robert
:cool:
 
This is a quote from that report (referencing the overloaded Bulgarian ammo):
"This ammunition will destroy weaker designs such as the TT-33 or the C-96. Fortunately, the incidents reported to date only involve use with the stronger CZ-52 pistols and no serious injuries have resulted from its use."

I personally would love to see this issue resolved. I really want a 7.62x25 pistol, but am waiting to see which way to go.
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My take on it is that the TT-33 is the stronger of the two guns, I breifly owned a CZ52 as well as a Norinco 54-1. In my handloading endeavors I quickly noticed that even the weakest most anemic 7.62x25 loads would cycle the CZ while only the stiffest top shelf loadings would cycle the Norinco's action. In short my CZ was beating itself and my wrist to death with even moderate loads. After just a few trips to the range the roller wear on the CZ's barrel and slide was becoming very pronunced. Wheras the Norinco just seems to digest everything without so much as a hiccup.

The Norinco also wins in the accuracy dpt by a long shot.

I think that most of the people who are writing the sappy CZ52 love stories are just assuming that because the CZ's roller delayed blowback machanism is diffrent therefore it must be stronger.

CZ 52 roller system weak? Same system used in the MG42 in 8 X 57 at 1200 RPM
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PLEASE that's like saying that a Chevette and a Subaru WRX both have the same engine just because they both have 4 cylinders
 
My take on it is that the TT-33 is the stronger of the two guns, I breifly owned a CZ52 as well as a Norinco 54-1. In my handloading endeavors I quickly noticed that even the weakest most anemic 7.62x25 loads would cycle the CZ while only the stiffest top shelf loadings would cycle the Norinco's action. In short my CZ was beating itself and my wrist to death with even moderate loads. After just a few trips to the range the roller wear on the CZ's barrel and slide was becoming very pronunced
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I am no gunsmith, but it sounds to me like the main spring was shot. I know with mine it is stiff to pull back the slide for the first round and I have to grip it good between my fingers to prevent it from slipping out of them.

If you had an after market barrel in it, then they often use soft metal for the roller bearings and they come out of round rather easy I hear.
 
I have. On more than one occassion. The magazine base plate comes loose while the gun is in mid-recoil. Then the spring, follower, and remaining ammunition all follow suit, leaving nothing but the body of the magazine in the gun.
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Ok, I can see that happening, but I have never had this problem myself....at least not yet.
 
You guys must be getting some bum pistols.. I have two cz 52's and I dearly love them. I would prefer it if they were double action, or had a colt style safty, also it would be nice if it was a double stack magazine that had a standard button release.

However, since I paid 120 bucks apice for them, and they are absolutly beautifull, fantasticly acurate, and as yet I cannot detect wear in them, some slight design flaws can be overlooked.

I trust mine implicitly. and we have a good relationship.

ymmv
 
Michael, I am not saying your are wrong, but the report you cite:
The Czech military ammo throwing its bullets at 1,600 feet per second appears to be an urban legend. Here is the most comprehensive 7.62x25mm ammunition survey available online. Draw your own conclusions. It remains that the only known test of VZ-52 found it wanting in strength in comparison to the Tokarev TT-33 and the Mauser C96.
Click to expand...
states that the CZ52 is stronger than the Tokarev, in the section entitled "dangerous surplus warning". Also, where the barrel burst from the bad Bulgarian ammo, the barrel burst at the top, not the bottom.

This is a quote from that report (referencing the overloaded Bulgarian ammo):
"This ammunition will destroy weaker designs such as the TT-33 or the C-96. Fortunately, the incidents reported to date only involve use with the stronger CZ-52 pistols and no serious injuries have resulted from its use."
Click to expand...
I cited the report for its measurement of ballistics, not for its conclusory musings utterly unsupported by evidence. Likewise as regards Clark Magnuson's experiments at overloading the 7.62x25mm round. To repeat myself, I know of no evidence that supports the theory that the VZ-52 is stronger than the Mauser C-96 and/or the Tokarev TT-33. My personal experience with all three handgun types has led me to conclude that its quality is far inferior to the German and Soviet products.
 
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