Opinions on 7.62x25mm pistol and gelatin testing?

[Brass Fetcher]

Recently, I have been contacted by an interested party(s) regarding gelatin testing the 7.62x25mm handgun in ballistic gelatin.

Among other things, the query concerned what bullet would I recommend in the way of JHPs and would it be a good load for CCW.

What are your opinions of testing a cartridge such as a hot 7.62x25mm with a 85 or 100gr Hornady XTP bullet? I have no idea if the 85gr will hold together past 1000 ft/sec, because that is as fast as I have shot it into gelatin (out of a .32NAA pistol), and have not had the chance to work with the 100gr offering.

Does anyone carry such a handgun for CCW? I have never owned anything from the ComBloc, not because I don't like the guns, but for reasons I will keep to myself. Is this a popular gun for 'non-gun people'?

Thank you,

JE223

 

[Justin]

Nope.

CZ52: Bad trigger, bad sights, possibility of overpenetration, and a decent chance that the magazines will self-disassemble partway through a magazine.

The CZ52 is a really fun range blaster, but for a concealed carry pistol, get something made by a modern manufacturer.

 

[weregunner]

To add to the moderators comment. There are better pistols and revolvers out there than the CZ52. Handloading self defense ammo is a bad idea. In court either a zealous D.A. or a money grubbing lawyer can use the case of one "brewing" up loads more deadly factory loads for the same thing. Then there is proving that the load used in defense can be replicated in court for to prove how the ammo behaved and its characteristics should they be called into question. Defense lawyer or D.A. will want to do more tests with exactly the brand used in the case. Replicating the tests can take many rounds. Hopefully with the same lot number as the defense rounds used in the actual shooting. Trail of evidence can be followed or created. With self loads this cannot be accomplished. Similar gun and exact ammo are what is allowed in testing or retesting. Soft nose or hollowpoint ammo for the 7.62 caliber is a good idea if not used for self defense.Varmint or small game hunting can be accomplished under the right conditions. Carlos the Jackel, the terrorist used a CZ52 to gun down to French policemen who had armor vest on. He used armor piercing ammo. Civilians for the most part have no reason for armor piercing ammo in defense scenarios. The rounds are more than likely going to go through the intended target and will have enough energy to hurt or kill someone else. Liability. Have seen numerous cases here at this forum where killing bystanders or causing great harm is routinely laughed off. Not good. The criminal element may wear body armor. In most cases, no they will not. So do what you will, but be warned that there are consequences.

 

[denfoote]

As a range gun it's fantastic.
It's days as a carry pistol have long since faded into the mist's of history!!

 

[Brass Fetcher]

weregunner et all,

Thank you for the advice. However, I refuse to back down on 'controversial' research, just because it might step on the occasional toe. In my case, I have conducted about 100 individual ballistic gelatin tests, many of which involved personally-owned guns and the ammunition that I now carry in them for CCW or hunting. And I post these results free for all people to use on the internet.

My ship is sunk, were the issues that you make mention of (valid issues all, IMO) to arise in a legal action involving me as the defendant. There is nothing like the mention of optimizing the destructive potential of a bullet (pretty much the definition of Terminal ballistics) to turn the blood of Joe the Juror cold as ice.

But, I published the data to the internet (www.brassfetcher.com) and I answer emails to whomever asks me a question regarding wound ballistics, because if I can help, it is the right thing to do. My decision on that had alot to do with helping fellow gun owners and alot to do with scientific freedom. Remember how the dark ages came to Europe? The 'powers that were' scared the people away from critical thinking and public discourse. For something as silly as a bullet that 'could' shoot through armor, I think I will continue, at my own risk.

What sorts of betters guns are available?

Thank you all.

 

[grimjaw]

I agree with the others that the CZ52 is a poor choice for a CCW. I don't know about the cartridge, though, and I'd be interested to see what the performance would be like on ballistic gelatin. It would give some modern factual evidence to the overpenetration concern that is cited with that round.

jm

 

[grendelbane]

So far as I know, the 2 commonly available pistols chambered for the 7.62 Tok are the VZ52 and the Tokarev. Both have some good features, and some poor ones. I have enjoyed owning and shooting both. Neither one is a good choice, if other designs are available. That refers to the gun, not the cartridge.

Now, the cartridge is indeed interesting. I would enjoy seeing any experimentation with this cartridge. I don't think that it will prove to be the answer, but what do I know, anyway? Experimentation and research are good.

When I was shooting a Tokarev, I thought it was a nice, slim design. With a better safety and a good holster, it might indeed make a nice CCW.

Of course, it would need better ammunition than what is currently available.

 

[merpho]

CZ52 for carry

I use my CZ52 as my carry weapon using 100 gr Hornady XTP from Reeds Research. They cost about $20 for 50 rounds. I think this provides us with a good defense load without the liability of handloading. My gun, 2 loaded clips and custom holster weigh 2 lbs, 15 oz. For the price the CZ52 is hard to beat. The surplus ammo functions well and is cheap enough that I can shoot 200 rounds at the range without feeling broke.

 

[earplug]

T33 Tokarev

Friend had a Tok. I liked the pistol. Flat, short butt, big sights, easy to carry, Would be a decent automobile pistol due to low cost and good power to shoot though other cars.
If the 7.62x25 is soo bad why the interest in the new FN round?
Over penetration worries keep the vest wearing people happy.

 

[CornCod]

Really, I have a CZ-52 and the only disadvantage in my mind for CCW carry is that its too big for that role. Its a military holster pistol. However, if I could conceal one of these on my person well I would carry it.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

merpho,

Would you mind shooting that 100gr XTP load into a jug of water? I am asking on behalf of the many interested people on THR (no pressure here ).

To do it right, completely fill a half gallon -waxed cardboard- OJ jug with room temperature water. Pull apart the polyester stuffing from an old pillow, and pack that into a long cardboard box to catch the bullet. Long and narrow is best. Place the jug at least 4" in front of the box and let it fly.

The recovered diameter of your bullet will give most of the information that has been in question on this thread.

Thank you,

JE223

 

[RyanM]

If someone were forced by poverty to stay in the extreme low end of the price range, there are worse choices than the CZ-52. Especially one that's been tuned a bit and has decent magazines. If I were in that position, I think I would trust a CZ-52 more than a Hi-Point or Lorcin or something.

On ammo, the XTP line tends to hold together fairly well, though they may not perform at their best.

Sierra 90 gr JHPs expand well at .32 H&R velocities, so they would probably be a poor choice.

The Rainier .32 caliber 100 gr PHPs look like they may do very well. One reviewer on Midway USA said that in water jugs, he got no expansion at 800 fps and 1000 fps, and "normal" expansion at 1300 fps. 100 gr @ 1300 fps sounds like a reasonable starting load to me.

Speer .32 100 gr JHPs look interesting, but I have no idea how they perform.

Power Pistol is a very good powder for that caliber from what I've read; gives good velocity and accuracy without too much pressure.

 

[PotatoJudge]

I'm more curious about the 60grn gold dot load. Gold dots seem to be pretty good about opening up, and with enough speed might penetrate enough despite their weight. Possible end result: respectable expanded diameter and depth of penetration. The only reason I consider this load at all is because gold dots tend to open up easier than XTPs, and because they don't make a 100 or 110 grn 308 gold dot.
(For the record, I'm a 158 grn and 230 grn guy generally, not a "light superfast" "temporary cavity" "hydrostatic shock" them to death kind of guy- but I do see how this round could work, and it's the only GD load out there)

 

[roscoe]

CornCod, do you carry the pistol with one in the chamber? People don't seem to trust the condition 1 carry for teh CZ52, but if it is safe to carry with hammer down, it would be pretty useful.

 

[RyanM]

I'm more curious about the 60grn gold dot load.

Someone already did tests of 60 gr Gold Dots at 1270 fps through a KT P32 that was modified to take a wildcat cartridge. The gelatin results are no longer up, but the Gold Dot fragmented into one large bullet piece and 6 petal bits, and penetrated very shallowly. Most likely, putting the same bullet at the 2000 fps+ which the 7.62x25mm is capable of, will result in complete fragmentation and penetration less than 5".

Ease of "opening up" is not an issue at all with 7.62x25mm using .32 mag bullets.

 

[Manedwolf]

On the ORIGINAL question of the post...

I would definitely like to see the ballistic results of the S&B 7.62x25 Tok that's most readily available, as it seems to be the best-quality noncorrosive out there. Prvi Partisan and Winchester White Box Metric also, perhaps. While you're at it, I don't trust MagSafe's quality at all, but they have a Tok Defender round that I'd like to see the results of in gelatin!

I really don't see the point of a JHP, though. The thing is known as a fast penetrator, with the bullet travelling at near rifle velocities, so I don't know if a JHP would even hold together or be effective...it is worth a shot, though. No pun intended.

I also find it somewhat amusing that people automatically jump to assuming that the author is talking about the CZ-52, which is hardly what I think of when I think of that round. Yes, it's cheap. But with its overly complicated roller-locking design, it's just a curiousity and range toy. The TOKAREV pistol, on the other hand, the original deal, either the Russian or Polish Radom versions of the TT-33, (no idea about the Chinese clones) are true, simple, and very slender Browning-design autos. If you don't mind a single-action pistol that you really shouldn't carry chambered even with its afterthought-for-import safety, it's a solid, simple weapon with a hell of a caliber for penetration of vehicle metal and anything up to level III body armor, should a criminal happen to be wearing it. The only drawback I can see is that the flash is likely to ruin your night vision.

Yes, I wish someone would make a new doublestack in the caliber, but the TT-33 is a decent pistol even if you wanted to carry it for some reason. The CZ? No, that's just for fun at the range.

I would be very interested in seeing what the aforementioned brands out of a TT-33 would do.

If you want to actually carry the round, I'd suggest this pistol, no CZ.

 

[roscoe]

The CZ52 should not be carried just because of the roller design? And I thought the TT could not handle the heavier loads for the CZ52?

By the way, I would love to see the results of the gelatin test.

I do agree about the slimness of the TT being nice, and I love the Art Deco styling of the TT, but I don't really get why the CZ52 is not a better pistol in terms of the mechanics and strength. The CZ52, if in good shape, is reported to be one of the most accurate autoloaders out there because of the recoil mechanism. Plus, it does actually have a safety.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

http://www.brassfetcher.com/prem32acp.html for what a 60gr Gold Dot looks like at 1237 ft/sec. Underwhelming, but I did push it at least 200 ft/sec faster than it was designed for.

Manedwolf, thanks for the info regarding the guns ... I'm thinking what I would like to do then is to have someone meet me at a range, with their Tokarev or CZ. They seem like nice guns, but, I don't want to invest much more money than what I have in gelatin powder, etc. in a test like this.

FWIW, a 85gr 7.62mm FMJ at 1600 ft/sec will penetrate to 33" in ballistic gelatin. This will vary slightly, of course, for the nose profile and if the bullet tumbles. A more blunt nose will give maybe an inch less here-or-there.

 

[Michael Zeleny]

The Tokarev pistol stands among the greatest fighting handguns of all time. Its design is a genuine improvement on the Browning tilting barrel, short recoil locked breech pattern. Among its several advanced features is the removable firing mechanism group that comprises the hammer, hammer spring, sear, sear spring, disconnector, and two machined steel cartridge guide ribs. This integration of the hammer action into a separate unit is echoed in the SIG P210, arguably the ultimate derivation of the original Browning design. The P210 omits Tokarev's no less ingenious separation of the cartridge feed guide from the magazine. Unaccountably, this advanced feature has not been duplicated in any other handgun.

By contrast, the VZ-52 excels mainly as a plaything. Clark Magnuson has demonstrated with his overload tests that its reputation for strength is undeserved. The Czech sidearm remains untested in, and arguably unfit for, armed conflict.

Now that bottleneck cartridges like 5.7x28mm and .357 SIG are once again in favor for military and constabulary applications, the 7.62x25mm could not be far behind. Fitted with a secure holster, with an empty chamber or with its hammer resting at the half-cock notch over a loaded round, the Tokarev pistol is an excellent choice for concealed carry.

 

[The_Shootist]

Z-70

I think my model Zastava Model 70 (.32ACP), built in Serbia is modeled on the Tok design. I frequently use it as a "beater" or truck gun. At close range its accurate enough and (being built like a tank) eats all the hotter loads that I would hesitate to put through my P-32.

I'm a little leery of cocked and locked carry but thats probably paranoia. Works in that mode just fine.

For $ 99 I guess its a Com-Bloc Saturday Night Special

 

[Manedwolf]

Now that bottleneck cartridges like 5.7x28mm and .357 SIG are once again in favor for military and constabulary applications, the 7.62x25mm could not be far behind. Fitted with a secure holster, with an empty chamber or with its hammer resting at the half-cock notch over a loaded round, the Tokarev pistol is an excellent choice for concealed carry.

The only concern I'd had there was that I'd heard that due to the Tok's (floating?) firing pin design, if chambered, if the pistol is dropped, the pin CAN travel forward with enough inertial force against the primer to fire the round. Is that true?

But yes, just from a historical perspective. The Tok was in wars, from the "Great Patriotic War" to Vietnam, and showed itself to be effective under combat conditions. I don't think the CZ was ever in combat.

Also...ever try to reload a CZ quickly, with that goofy Euro wire loop heel mag release? The Tok is a standard grip button drop-and-slap reload familiar to anyone who's ever touched just about any modern auto pistol.

In a post-disaster scenario where I had to be out and couldn't be carrying a rifle, such as in waiting in a line somewhere, I would DEFINITELY have the Tok somewhere on me in addition to a .45. It's a slender and easy to conceal package that can deliver a round that'll go right through vehicle metal, windshields, and even level II body armor, if a BG happened to be wearing it.

I would really like to see what various rounds do out of it in some new tests.

 

[Michael Zeleny]

The only concern I'd had there was that I'd heard that due to the Tok's (floating?) firing pin design, if chambered, if the pistol is dropped, the pin CAN travel forward with enough inertial force against the primer to fire the round. Is that true?

You are thinking of the Makarov pistol. The Tokarev employs a firing pin spring.

 

[roscoe]

A lot of new information for me about the CZ52 and the TT. I still want a 7.62 firearm - too bad the Tokarevs are so much more expensive and hard to find than the CZ52.

 

[Michael Zeleny]

I still want a 7.62 firearm - too bad the Tokarevs are so much more expensive and hard to find than the CZ52.

The classiest firearm in that caliber is doubtless the Mauser C96. Yes, 7.63x25mm Mauser is dimensionally and ballistically equivalent to 7.62x25mm Tokarev, rumors to the contrary notwithstanding. Anyone who doubts the strength of this old warhorse would do well to consider its capacity to endure battering by 9x25mm Mauser Export, a proleptic equal if not better of .357 S&W Magnum.

 

[silverlance]

funny thing.. iwas just shooting the vz52 earlier today

funny thing.. i was just shooting the vz52 (aka cz52) earlier today.

so it's unfit for battle? well, given a choice between the vz and either of my p228s, I'd of course take the p228. the 9mm EMFG rounds I use will punch through light cover without excessive overpentration. 13 / 15 rounds, night sights, da /sa, all these make the p228 a better choice as a defensive handgun over the vz52.

after all, the vz52 suffers from a very stiff trigger (I PHYSICALLY cannot shoot more than two boxes of x25 without having to stop.. my finger gets so tired it ceases to be capable of squeezing), narrow sights, low magazine capacity, slower magazine mechanism, heavy overall weight, and a hyper velocity small diameter bullet.

that said -

I shot two bowling pins at 150 METERS today with it using 1950s surplus romanian corrosive ammo, blew the heck out of a 1 gal jug of water (it exploded), and swapped magazines just as fast as the guy using the 1911 next to me (once you get used to it, you can do it just as easily as the release button mechanism... the trick is to insert the magazine in at an angle (tilted towards your body), then use the spine of the magazine to push back the heel release.

I test the safety each time I go, and I have never had the vz52s safety fail on me. The decocker works great, and the gun is so slim that if i taped it to my chest under a thick sweater there's a very godo chance no one would notice.

in essence, I would not feel horribly underequipped with a vz52 and a good supply of ammuntion. I've also NEVER had a jam with it, which is more than can be said for nearly every other gun i've ever owned.